Sportsmans Guide has some battlepacks on sale.

SPanish SS109

Prices are as follows
 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Buyers Club
20 Rounds             $3.97 - - -       $3.77
200 Rounds            $34.97 - - -      $33.22
400 Round Battlepack  $64.97 - - -      $61.72

I guess these prices are ok, considering you can use the coupons.

Valuble Coupons
SPG288         $5 off purchase of $50 or more
SPG289         $10 off purchase of $100 or more

Thanks, Edited again [:)]

82_Airborne,
anyone else,

is this spanish 62gr SS109 any good?  from a quality perspective how would you compare it with Q3131A or XM193?  what about accuracy?

thanks for any insight!

ar-jedi

I have the earlier lot from 94 that Ammoman was selling a while back. I believe the SG lot is from 93.

My experience with it so far has been excellent. The round seems a bit slower than M855 but has excellent accuracy potential. I've put four rounds into 0.25" at 100yds before (mostly luck rather than skill; but still got me charged up) opening it up to 1.5" with the fifth shot.

Some people have complained about soft brass; but I have over 1,000 rounds downrange without seeing this.

i bought two battle packs from SPG a while back and i have gone through most of it. took the last of it out to the range last night.
very good stuff IMO. clean and accurate & moderatley priced

I ordered 2000-rds of it a few weeks back. It is some really clean ammo, and VERY accurate. As for being weaker, I haven't chrony'd it yet but it feels close enough to IMI and S&B that I don't think I'm going to bother with it.

One negative so far, though, is that after about 500-rds now I've already had one case fail to extract. Just tore the shoulder right off. See pics.

[img]http://images.snapfish.com/33874%3A7523232%7Ffp47%3Dot%3E2323%3D539%3D927%3D3232539836%3C93nu0mrj[/img]

[img]http://images.snapfish.com/33874%3A7523232%7Ffp47%3Dot%3E2323%3D539%3D928%3D3232539837%3A8%3Bnu0mrj[/img]

OK,  I purchased 400 rounds this past Saturday, I thought I'd give it a try on Sunday and if all went well was prepared to get 2K more the following weekend from the same guy at a different show.

Well, the first 100 or so rounds went ok, then a FTE and I had to poke it out with a stick.

Then I had one jam up into where the gas tube comes into the chamber area.  

On the same day put 100's of other types of rounds down range with no problem.

I really hate this, the stuff "looks" good but my M16 does not seem to like it.

YMMV.

PS:  It was with a Bushy 16 HBAR upper.

This looks like a better deal to me...
[url]http://www.botach.com/IMI/IMIAmmo/556mm%2055gr%20M193%20FMJ.htm[/url]

It isn't even the same ammo.  The imi stuff you're refering to is only 55 gr. whereas the SS109 has 62 gr. projectiles.

Some people have reported problems with extraction in 16" rifles. I haven't heard of any problems from people using this ammo in 20" rifles.

Just recieved a shipment of these "battle packs" from sportsman's guide.
The ammo looks beautiful, but I am disappointed that it was removed from the battle packs and repackaged in cardboard boxes.
One of the expra value features of this deal would be the long term storage benefits of getting it in sealed battle packs.
I hope to get to the range tomorrow and see how it shoots.
More soon.

PS: great to be here (1st post).

Alan aka BroncoMafia

Welcome, [beer]

Cheaper than dirt is selling the same brand of Spanish ammo in .308 now, $3.80 or so a box. Just ordered some, hope its as reliable as the .223.

Thanks Dcoke :-)
I have gotten a lot of good info from this board recently.
I spend a lot of time at the FALfiles and some time over at "that AK-47" board.

I have been finding the community here is VERY well educated and has a lot to offer.
I hope I can contribute in my own way.

alan

yea, I was looking at this...it said steel core on the sign as well.

Can't wait to hear the review.

Just banged off 100 rounds of the spanish .308, 60 in my FAL and 40 from my bolt gun...Its great and Im just going over to order a bunch more....

guys,

just wanted to follow-up with my .02 worth...

i ordered and rec'd 400rnds of this spanish ss109 from sportsmans guide (see link in top post). like was stated above, the ammo did NOT arrive in any kind of waterproof "battlepack".

my setup is a Bushy flat top, w/ M4 profile full  16" (blunt end) barrel.  i shot about 200rnds of this spanish stuff this past weekend.  199 of them were OK.  less flash than Q3131A, less recoil as well.  they feel a little like std Win 223 "white box" 55gr stuff.  no chrono data taken.  accuracy was consistent, leaning on a bench i was putting 10 rounds into a 5 inch circle at 100yds with my aimpoint.

somewhere in the middle of the 200, 1 round FTE'd (failed to extract), and the cause was EXACTLY the same as the pictures posted above by 2Manchu.  the extractor ripped the edge right off the case.  and so the empty case stayed put, the bolt came back, then tried to push the next round up and in, next thing you know we're jammed up good.  initially i did immediate action ("SPORTS") but thereafter realized the fired casing was still in the chamber.  what a bummer because (i'm not making this up) my AR had NEVER jammed!  (about 1K of win Q3131A and win 223).  so it was "get out the SOG tool" time to depress the magazine spring enough to get the half-loaded cartridge back into the magazine, so i could get the magazine out of the gun.  then i had to use a rod to get the empty brass out of the chamber.  it was then that i noticed the extractor had pulled the ledge right off the shell.  the previously half-loaded cartridge had the bullet depressed into the shell, moreover the bullet was no longer co-axial with the shell, so i tossed that one into the 'duds bucket' at the range.

i gathered up a few dozen of the spent spanish brass and inspected the empty casings.  many looked like the extractor had done a job on them, and several looked "almost" -- like the gun could have easily jammed with those rounds as well.  there were visible "tear marks" from the extractor.

summary, usually i'm an ammo snob and only shoot win Q3131A and/or win 223 white box stuff -- but i thought i'd try this spanish ss109 and had hoped for the best.  it didn't turn out that way.

for any SHTF or "tactical" situations DO NOT USE THIS SPANISH SS109.

ar-jedi

Same thing here.  I went out today to shoot my new Colt M4 and had a FTE with the Spanish SS109.  I shot about 200 rounds of Lake City then switched to the Spanish.  Round #41 tore the rim, and I forgot to bring my cleaning rod so that was that for the day.  Good thing I brought my old stand by Mossberg .22.  I wonder how many out of the next 759 rounds I bought will jam.  I think I'll try the IMI next.

I ordered 1200 rounds and they all came in battle packs 3 to be exact. I havent shot any yet probably wont have time until this weekend hopefully i dont encounter any FTE's.

You guys with the torn rims, is your chamber 5.56 or .223?

I've shot over 5k of this stuff last year and it worked 100% thru a Colt gun.  Don't have any 223 chambers to try it out in.

> is your chamber 5.56 or .223?

my BM is 5.56 chamber.

ar-jedi

This stuff was probably loaded for use in a CETME Modelo L.  It's too hot for an M4; the extractors are tearing through the rims because the bolt group velocity is too high.  Has anyone had problems with this ammo in a 20" barrel?

i had the same problem with my 16", it tore the shoulder off and the casing got stuck in the chamber had to poke it out with a cleaning rod.i personnally would not recommend it for the 16" and my bore is 5.56mm. i had ordered 1200 rounds and went through about 200 rounds before i returned it for a refund at spg. they gave me a full refund with a return shipping lable from ups. customer service is great there at spg. i ve been buying a whole bunch of the lake city ammo and not one problem with it.
               meat

> It's too hot for an M4

i don't think (i.e. it doesn't feel as if) it's as hot as LC or Q3131A.

ar-jedi

The 94 lot actually chronos lower than M855 - so I don't think it is too hot.

Isnt the SS109 62grn stuff anyways?

One would assume it would chrono slower than 55grn stuff...right?

Comparing the two seems a big useless to me.

You need to read the Ammo Oracle tacked at the top of the forum. M855 IS SS109; but not all SS109 (like this ammo) is M855. Both are 62gr. with steel penetrators.

55gr is M193 and is a different issue entirely.

I was noting that the SB SS109 lot I had chronoed slower than IMI M855 (also NATO-spec 62gr.) and so I don't think the problem with case rims is related to this round being too hot.

I had a problem years ago with some Malaysian 5.56 that was somewhat like all these. I picked through the brass after a few FTE's and found out that the base of the cases expanded. Of course I didn't know this until I tried to resize them during reloading. Obviously a few too hot cases in the lot. The Spanish obviously surplused this ammo like the Malay's. Like anything else made today,it's cheapest bidder and someone looking to maximize profit at the expense of their young men and women in uniform. This crap always goes on. "Joe Dumbass" sets up a machine and let's it go for a million rounds without Quality Assurance checking for spec. For the person who received it in an unopened battlepack,it was probably someone elses return. Just my guess.

sorry, i thought I read 193.

Im a dumb ass.

It's quite possible that the pressure of the ammo is higher without a corresponding increase in velocity, and so it may truely be "too hot" for the 16" barrels....or the brass may also be too soft.

I stick with Lake City and would rely on it for any shtf scenario.

Finally fired 200 rounds of Santa Barbara '93 from my Sportsmansguide purchase.
I experienced 2 FTE's out of 200 rounds.

The interesting thing is that this was fired from an AK, not an AR (fired from a Russian VEPR2k).

Both rounds were partial extractions (case came out about a half inch before the extractor slipped off the rim.

RangeOfficer (vietnam vet) and I had a long discussion about his experiences in viet nam and how he used to cycle every round he was taking with him on patrol the next day through his weapon before going to sleep.

He did this because he found that they were regurly recieving ammo that had cases larger than spec. He said he routinely found a few rounds that would not properly extract. Better to find them in the comfort of your hooch than in a firefight on patrol.

Following this discipline, he claimed he never had an FTF or FTE in the field.

Anyway, looks like there are indeed some QA issues with this ammo.

Is it too hot?
Is the difference between the bolt rotation speed of my AK and an AR significant?
Is it soft brass?
Are some of the cases oversized?

I don't know, but I can tell you that I will be contacting sportsman's guide about swapping my unfired ammo for something else.

got another 400 of this stuff on thursday.

i took about 150 of it to the range yesterday and had my first fte in my ar ever.  it was a relly good jam had to use a cleaning rod and bang the crap out of it.

when i got it out the rim was trashed.  this was the only failure out of about 600rds ive shot so far, i have about 600 left though.

funny thing is i burned through 200rds of wolf after that w/ no problems. (ive never had a problem w/ wolf though)

Muzzle velocity has nothing to do with it.

This ammunition was almost certainly intended for use in a CETME Modelo L, a delayed blow-back design.  The issue of gas port pressure never arose with that design, since there's no gas port.

Lacking any CETME Ls, has anyone tried this ammunition in an HK93?

wait a minute, they made a cetme in 223?

double post deleted

Placed an order yesterday thru SG....got a notice that Spanish SS109's are on backorder.

Expected return date is late November.

Haven't tried any of the Spanish SS109 ammo but a funny coincidence occurred to me. Are the Spanish SS109s headstamped with a "SB" ? A month ago, I fired some twenty rounds of .50 BMG APIT ammo through my Barrett M82A1. The ammo was surplus Santa Barbara ammo made in Spain. Every round went off okay. However, after arriving home, I then noticed a stuck case in the chamber during cleaning. After poking it out with a cleaning rod, I noticed that part of the case rim was torn off. There was no damage to the gun's extractor. Luckily, for my range shooting, the stuck case occurred with my last round. I did not see any signs of excessive pressure on the case, which leads me to believe Santa Barbara is using soft brass in their ammo.  

The 5.56mm CETME Modelo L was adopted by Spain in, if memory srves, the late '80s or early '90s.  It apparently was less than perfect in service, and has since been replaced by the H&K G36 I believe.

http://www.gdsbs.com/ingles/fusil.html

[img]http://world.guns.ru/assault/cetme_l.jpg[/img]
CETME Modelo L.
5.56 NATO

I finnaly was able to take this ammo out shooting today and the result was that i am going to send the unfired rounds back. The first 30 rounds shot fine no issues it was accurate and it had some kick to it. Insert next mag round 3 fte. I brought a cleaning kit so i knock the shell out the rim where the extractor grabbed it was torn off. Clear the jam put the round that was being loaded into the back of the empty shell into my pocket. Insert mag round 4 fte same problem. I finish off the mag with no other problems so i loaded up the remaining 1 round that i had put in my pocket fire it with no mag in the receiver so bolt doesnt lock back. I put another mag in try to charge the gun and the bolt is stuck so i grab the charging handle smack the butt against the ground and a shell comes flying out and the rim had been torn off. I fired 120 rounds of today and had 3 ftes. This is the first time i have ever had a fte in the year that i have owned my ar15. I picked up about 40 spent shells and all had deformed rims and several were torn. The ammo is accurate and seems to be loaded hot but its not worth the hastle.

Agcsy,

i posted earlier in this thread, and wanted to follow-up with some more info.  i put another 100+ of the spanish stuff downrange today and had 2 additional FTE(xtract).  rim torn off both times.  this is on the same 16" bushy that i had this ammo problem with before.  and, this is the same bushy that to date has swallowed about 1K combined of Q3131A and winchester white box 223 WITH NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER.

i recommend that anyone reading this thread think long and hard before buying this spanish SS109 surplus.  it's a major pain in the arse at the range, and don't even THINK about using it for any kind of situation where your rifle "absolutely positively" has to work.

summary: i'm not going back to that well ever again -- the water stinks.

ar-jedi

Here is the lot number from my Santa Barbara SS109:

Lot: 93-SB-6

I've got around 1.5k downrange from a 16" Bushy HBAR without a single stoppage of any kind with this lot of SB SS109.

The lot # of mine is 02-sb-93. I havent tried firing it through my 20" so it may work in that but if it doesnt work in both my guns its not really worth it to me. It sucks because this seems to be really nice ammo besides the fte issue.

I called sportsmans guide and i am going to send them 800 rounds back for a refund. I decided to keep the battle pack i had opened to see if it works better in my 20" it still has around 300 rounds in it hopefully it works better.

I think the issue here is chamber size and condition along with gas tube length of your rifle. I finally go a chance to chrono some of this and it averages 3070fps from a 20" tube. Ran a small sample size( 200 rounds)  through a standard 20" A2 ArmaLite and NO FTE occured BUT some rims when turned in the sunlight showed a barely visible extractor outline. You could not feel it with the finger though. Measured case thickness at the web was consistently above that of all commercial ammo as well as XM193 and Q3131A by a margin of .002 to .004 of an inch. Two things could be causing this.......weak brass or high pressure problem( velocity can not tell you what the case pressure is so donn't assume there isn't a pressure problem) I leaning to the latter as the cause of the problem with shorter tubes but it also makes you wonder if these carbines have tighter or rougher chambers also. I would only run this ammo through a 5.56 chamber that is chromed in a 20" tube. It is more accurate than 193 out of my rifle too. Good bargin for long tubers. All ammo I recieved came sealed in battlepacks. Please send yours back so I can buy more [:D]