Hello folks.

I know .308 168gr BTHP will be more accurate than regular 147/150gr FMJ but what is the actual difference of damage potential / penetration? from ranges 200 to 600 yards?

Thanks for your time

kinda apples and oranges.  the HP is designed to open up and cause more soft tissue damage.  The FMJ is designed to stay in one piece and penetrate more than just people.

[hail2]

Thanks. [:D]

No wonder we can use 75/77gr instead since after that all all that counts is shot placement at that kind of ranges.

Is  the Portuguese surplus .308 you see around different or special in regards to construction? I recall reading on the 'net (you get what you pay for) about Port having a different/unique jacket thickness? Please advise!

Thanks!

The Port ammo is like most other NATO .308 loads. It doesn't fragment. But it is what I would consider very high quality for surplus ammo.

Troy,

For thise interested in having good penetration and wounding potential, what would you recommend? For instance, Hornady also makes a 155 gr OTM load. This load should shoot to a similar POI, at least close enough to be effective. Or within 200 yards, the 150 gr FMJ may be close enough in performance for barrier work. Would either be significantly better than the AMAX in penetrating stuff such as trees, car bodies, etc?

I am thinking the best one load for both purposes would be the 165 gr TBBC. It is a great penentrator and has good, controlled expansion as well. I am kinda unsure whether or not this is an "M1A friendly load" though. Some of these deep penetrating loads are loaded hot and not most suitable for semi-auto rifles, especially the M1A/M1 Garand.

Still, the 155 AMAX has amazing terminal performance and seems to fair just as well on windshields as the OTM loads. They would probably do well on lighter barriers too. It would be great to not have to compromise, but it seems there's no other way. Either route you choose you are still giving up something.

-Charging Handle

Besides cost, any issues with using the Hornady 155gr TAP loading in a HK91/G3?

Thanks
John

Shouldn't be. The biggest issue I can think of is availability. The 155 gr AMAX load is in short supply right now and very hard to find. I recently did an online search for it and only found one source. And it was priced outrageously high. The 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip loads, such as Federal's might be the next best alternative. The Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silvertip also offers good performance. These are probably near equals to the AMAX if you can't find that particular load.

-Charging Handle

Is the 155gr A-Max bullet available as a component?

Use a Sierra GAME KING .308 hollowpoint. I use them.

If it can kill an elk, it can kill a man.

CRC

I have a few boxes of the old .308 Black Talon, how do these match up?  Are they the equivalent of the Winchester Supreme?  Thanks for the time.

I believe you are speaking of what is now called the Fail Safe. To answer your question, these loads penetrate deep and hold together well. But in tests, they don't seem to expand very well. On the other hand, loads such as Federal's Trophy Bonded Bear Claw, Nosler Partition and the Winchester Supreme Partition Gold seem to offer penetration that's just as good or better, while also doing a much better job of expanding. If you'd like to see what some of these rounds have done in testing, read over the thread I started that's tacked at the top called "Better self-defense loads: Various calibers". It contains lots of penetration, expansion and weight retention data for several calibers including .308 and 30-06.

FWIW, the Winchester Fail Safe (formerly Black Talon) is a premium load sold under the Supreme label. It is accurate and penetrates well, but I think I would choose one of the above mentioned loads that expand a little better. Again, this type of ammo is best on tough animals with lots of muscle and heavier bone. It also works well in barrier penetration duties for self defense or police work. Strictly from an anti-personnel standpoint, the fragmenting loads such as the 155 gr AMAX or ballistic tip would likely cause a more dramatic wound. But in cases where lots of penetration is needed, the bonded bullets like the TBBC and Partition are hard to beat. Hope this helps.

-Charging Handle

This is one bad bullet (I reload them so don't know if you can get them commerically). It's a 165gr match BTHP with the hollow point clearly designed to expand on impact. In my tests it is also very accurate. I wonder what kind of devistation it would create when entering tissue?

There is also a .30 cal 165 gr Sierra Game King BTHP. I have a component bullet in my hand as we speak. I can say that this bullet used in conjunction with my 30-06 reloads is a lethal combo on whitetail deer. It is also surprisingly accurate considering the almost box-shaped hollow cavity opening. The batch I have is older bullets that have been here for a while and they have four jacket serrations and a thin jacketing tip. Again, Me, my dad and several of my friends all use these rounds for hunting. So far all deer we have shot with it have dropped in their tracks, but all the shots were well placed.

While hunting doesn't necessarily relate to how a bullet will perform in self defense situations, I can say that Dr. Gary Roberts rates this bullet's performance high in his list of approved LE/defense loads. He recommends it right up there with the AMAX and Nosler Ballistic Tip, so it should perform fine.

-Charging Handle

Troy,

I agree, they should have used seperate names. Having a BTHP and BTSP marketed under the same name is very confusing. But if you are interested in loading up some of these, my Natchez Shooters Supplies master catalog has them listed at a price several dollars cheaper than 168 OTM bullets.

Sierra .30 cal 165 gr BTHP
#SI2140
=$17.58 per box

1-800-251-7839

[url]www.natchezss.com[/url]

From what I have seen, these bullets perform well over a wide range of velocities and anyone who has ever hunted with them swears by their performance. I know I do. They also have good accuracy and I know one fella who uses them in practice loads to replicate 168 gr OTM ballistics. I think you would really like them as well. I load mine pretty hot and use them in a Remington 700 bolt gun. But I have also used them in the past loaded a little less hot in a Remington 7400 and they worked equally well.

This bullet has been on the market now for some time, as I recall first being introduced to it by a local reloader back in the early 90's. I once thought that Federal loaded it commercially, but the only Federal ammo I can locate using a 165 gr Sierra bullet is the SP version. I hope this is useful.

Oh, and BTW, should you pop a few of these into some gel or critters, please post your results. I have been dying to place an order with the Vyse Co. the past few weeks as I have several rounds I wanna test. But right now my refrigeration space is limited and my time short. Perhaps I should search Ebay for a commercial refrigeration unit? LOL. They have everything else!

-Charging Handle

That's the one! Thanks for the info.

I didn't know anything about the bullet's performance, but I do know that they are very accurate (I didn't think they would be because of the design). And they are one wicked looking bullet.

Charging Handle,

GAME KING, MATCH KING and PRO-HUNTER are catageories of bullets. GAME KING bullets are primarily for hunting and come in SPs, HPs, ect.

CRC