Ok, what does this mean? Have they found some kind of wonder ammo? Or is a short barrel 5.56 even with its limitations still better than 9mm SMGs that they will carry them anyways?



They worked well, whatever they were using.

They aren't using M855 or M193, that's for sure. Since Delta (the guys assigned to protect Karzai, aren't technically engaged in combat operations, they are exempt from Hague convention protocols.  Yes the US is not a signatory so technically they aren't bound by those rules anyhow, but the US does follow them.  But the SF units tend to use hollowpoints and specialty ammo under certain circumstances.

I'll bet dollars to donuts that the SF guys were using AMAX/VMAX style rounds for reliable expansion at close range and lower velocities.

Actually Iceman, at leat one of the TAP series is a 75gr BTHP match bullet and is Hague compliant, in the opinion of our DOD anyways.

Consensus is building on the other threads:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=139293
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=142698

that the wounded guy with no shirt on at least was Navy. Its possible therefore that the other guys could be Navy too. But Delta and the SEALs often mix.

This is beside the point. 11.5in and shorter AR's are not supposed to be reliable manstoppers. Yet we have special operators here choosing to use such weapons in a bodyguard situation-when good stopping power ought to count. If they are Delta, then these are the same guys that complained how the 14.5" barreled weapons performed in Mog. What has changed?  What have the found? Or were the problems overstated frm the begining?

Quoted: Actually Iceman, at leat one of the TAP series is a 75gr BTHP match bullet and is Hague compliant, in the opinion of our DOD anyways.

yep..also, Hornady claims the 75 gr. TAP is effective to 50m. from a 10.5" barrel.. long enough for any shot they'll take in a city.

If they are Delta, then these are the same guys that complained how the 14.5" barreled weapons performed in Mog. What has changed?  What have the found? Or were the problems overstated frm the begining?

I think they may have been overstated.. Only one Delta guy f/ BHD complained about the round, IIRC?

Maybe they just found those rifles better suited for the role of body guard.

Quoted: They aren't using M855 or M193, that's for sure. Since Delta (the guys assigned to protect Karzai, aren't technically engaged in combat operations, they are exempt from Hague convention protocols.  Yes the US is not a signatory so technically they aren't bound by those rules anyhow, but the US does follow them.  But the SF units tend to use hollowpoints and specialty ammo under certain circumstances. I'll bet dollars to donuts that the SF guys were using AMAX/VMAX style rounds for reliable expansion at close range and lower velocities.

AMAX/VMAX?  Ok.  You're on.  How much would you like to wager?  (I prefer Chocolate Frosted).

Tatjana, go double or nothing

Quoted: Tatjana, go double or nothing

I haven't lost yet!

I'll double down tho!

yep..also, Hornady claims the 75 gr. TAP is effective to 50m. from a 10.5" barrel.. long enough for any shot they'll take in a city

Gee that isn't much improvement on M193. It still fragments at 40m from a 11.5 inch according to the FAQ. Theres no shortage of M193, its still made for the National Guard and Air Force.

Course they also have access to the Black Hills 77gr that they use in the M4's too.

Maybe they just found those rifles better suited for the role of body guard.

Well that was kind of what I was gettng at. There has been a lot posted that makes the 11.5's look really bad, but when you compare it to guns that really are the same size-pistol caliber SMGs and the FN P90- isn't it actually better?

Quoted: Well that was kind of what I was gettng at. There has been a lot posted that makes the 11.5's look really bad, but when you compare it to guns that really are the same size-pistol caliber SMGs and the FN P90- isn't it actually better?

I'll take a full-auto 10/22 over a P90...

Why do all these guys put rubber bands around their stocks?

Quoted: Quoted: Well that was kind of what I was gettng at. There has been a lot posted that makes the 11.5's look really bad, but when you compare it to guns that really are the same size-pistol caliber SMGs and the FN P90- isn't it actually better? I'll take a full-auto 10/22 over a P90...

Yes but would you take a 10.5" AR over a MP-5 or a Colt 9mm SMG or a UMP?

Quoted: Quoted: I'll take a full-auto 10/22 over a P90... Yes but would you take a 10.5" AR over a MP-5 or a Colt 9mm SMG or a UMP?

If we're talking about an urban setting where the shots will be within 30m or so, then yes.  The 5.56 will still (rather) reliably fragment, and i don't have to worry about overpenetration issues common with the 9mm and .45 ACP... ESPECIALLY if I had to use ball ammo.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'll take a full-auto 10/22 over a P90... Yes but would you take a 10.5" AR over a MP-5 or a Colt 9mm SMG or a UMP? If we're talking about an urban setting where the shots will be within 30m or so, then yes.  The 5.56 will still (rather) reliably fragment, and i don't have to worry about overpenetration issues common with the 9mm and .45 ACP... ESPECIALLY if I had to use ball ammo.

And you also wouldn't have to worry about soft body armor either...

Curious about this incident I spoke with someone "in the know" a little bit ago.  He knew one of the respondees by name.  I generally consider the source hyper reliable but since I can't cite- salt to taste.

This was reported to me, along with info from other sources:

Present when the attempt occurred:

At least 3 NSW members and at least 6-8 Delta members.  Best guess was that it was an NSW member that was wounded (not seriously).  Also present were 2 or 3 Special Activities Division (Under CIA's Directorate of Operations and the same group that Johnny "Mike" Spann was connected with)- apparently present by chance involving another operation- NSW might have been there to work with the SAD people and both groups were probably along for "the ride."  [OT but interesting to Tatjana: there are several women in the paramilitary Special Activities Division (!!)].

You can usually tell the SAD types because they don't wear military garb or if they do it's sanitized.

The chronology:


1.  Karzai stops to greet some local Afghans and as he does shots ring out from the first attacker, who had been dressed in Afghan security guard garb.  At least four shots are fired into the car, two through a closed window (I can only assume the small side window behind the rear passanger window).  One shot misses Karzai's head by inches but strikes Gul Agha Sherzai inflicting a minor head wound.


2.  Karzai's car flees with great haste.



3.  U.S. Special Forces, including both the NSW group and Delta respond, dismount their tailing vehicle and return fire at three aggressors.  All three are KIA.  One U.S. Operative (NSW) is wounded and takes cover while the area is secured to eventually stem his bleeding with his shirt.


4.  SAD member (notice the jeans) comforts the wounded NSW, stands him up and, holding his head utters something to the effect of "Hey, you still with us?"  He utters, "I'm good, I'm good..." or words to that effect.


4a.  After eliminating the immediate threat the area is scanned and the wounded comrade is attended to.


5.  The job done they begin to exfiltrate the area.  They seem to have much more a sense of purpose than their Afghan counterparts... no?


6.  Wounded NSW soldier discusses next steps with OPCOM and refuses immediate medical evac.


7.  Result, three dead with at least one suffering a nice controlled pair to the neck and right side of the head.


8.  U.S. SPECOPs fade into the fog.  Afghans left to clean up.


[Edited cause I messed up the order first time around].

Wow!

That is a impressive post Tatjana...

[OT but interesting to Tatjana: there are several women in the paramilitary Special Activities Division (!!)].

I am not suprised to hear that the CIA has women in their parimilitary division, but I AM a bit surpised that they would send them to Afganistan- or use them anywhere in the Islamic sphere of influence. I would think it would cause too much friction with the locals.

Back on topic: you wouldn't of happened to uncover from your source what kind of ammo they were feeding those CARs did you?

A relatively new member, M24Expert posted this on the original thread in the General Board:

Those carbines in the photos are made by Military Manufacturing Corp. also known as M2 Corp. They are currently in SOCOM inventory and used by USASOC units for dignitary protection. M2 makes a few models, one is being tested for aircrew use in the 160th to replace the PDW now used. M2 has a site at http://www.m2corp.com/ for the open site. They are also developing a 5.56x45mm round that is suppossed to give simlar performance out of the short barel as is given by a full size M16A4 and tame the flash. The weapon was designed and totally made by M2 in Nevada. KAC designed RIS/RAS is also used with the little beasts. Jim

Intriguing no?

I doubt those are M2 wares.


Tatjana,
Shouldnt it be NSW Sailor? Sailors are not soldiers.

Quoted: Wow! That is a impressive post Tatjana... [OT but interesting to Tatjana: there are several women in the paramilitary Special Activities Division (!!)]. I am not suprised to hear that the CIA has women in their parimilitary division, but I AM a bit surpised that they would send them to Afganistan- or use them anywhere in the Islamic sphere of influence. I would think it would cause too much friction with the locals.

I don't know that any are in Afghanistan.  I just learned last night that they exist.

Back on topic: you wouldn't of happened to uncover from your source what kind of ammo they were feeding those CARs did you?

All the information I have says they are either:

77 grain Match King (Probably loaded by BH)
77 grain Nosler (Again, BH loaded)
75 grain TAP (Open Tip, Boat Tail)

Most likely the 75 grain TAP equivalent.  According to one researcher it seems that the military 75 grain version is loaded to about 2800 fps (2550 for commercial versions).  Hornady recently got an order for a million rounds of 75 grain from "a certain unit."  That makes this the most likely option, probably.

The military 77 grain round is a 77 gr MK running around 2800 fps or so.  (Commercial versions also being slower).

The 77 grain Nosler version is still in testing so probably isn't being fielded.

Those are my best guesses.

It doesn't make a lot of difference- it was all shot placement I'm told.  Outstanding controlled pairs in two of the "subjects."  Could have been 22LR.

Quoted: I doubt those are M2 wares. Tatjana, Shouldnt it be NSW Sailor? Sailors are not soldiers.

Oh boy, I'm not touching that one.

Tatja, I am continually amazed.  Keep it coming!  

Quoted: I doubt those are M2 wares.

You know of them? And what makes you think they are not from them? Just curious..

Most likely the 75 grain TAP equivalent. According to one researcher it seems that the military 75 grain version is loaded to about 2800 fps (2550 for commercial versions). Hornady recently got an order for a million rounds of 75 grain from "a certain unit." That makes this the most likely option, probably. The military 77 grain round is a 77 gr MK running around 2800 fps or so

Those sound like velocities from a 20" barrel, correct? Thus when fired from a carbine the military ammo is close to the figures for commercial ammo?

Update:

Aside from the primary shooter at least one of the other dead was a Karzai bodyguard.

Injured SF was hit in the shoulder and apparently had a cut from (auto?) glass in the head.  He was up and walking around immediately after.  So much for the wounding properties of 7.62x39/5.45x39.

Way to go Catjana..er, Tatjana. Better than any of the news services!

What kind of vests are the green vests that they are wearing?

Well, one thing is for certain.....the rounds chosen, whatever they were, more than did the job. This is a perfect example of what well trained operators are capable of doing. I agree that the type of rounds used here doesn't matter at all. Whether they were 40 gr varmint loads or 77 gr. whatever loads, when you place bullets in the areas that these went, it is a no-brainer (no pun intended, well, maybe a little!).

I just wish that when we discuss for pages the effectiveness of certain loads, or the 5.56mm vs. 308 debates, that this type of stuff would come up. When you place the bullets in the right zones, you are going to be effective. Rounds stacked from the neck on up to the head are going to bring down fanatical terrorist butt-munches. Dead is dead.....be it from a .22, 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm or 7.62 NATO. As witnessed from the above photos, proper marksmanship training and tactics are far more important than ammo selection.

---Charging Handle

Tatjana:

As always you are THE goddess.  A very complete after action report.

Marry me and bear my children.

Quoted: Tatjana: As always you are THE goddess.  A very complete after action report. Marry me and bear my children.

Submit your application to:

[email protected]

My brother reviews and interviews all my suitors.

All joking aside, I'm often accused of being anti-american (I'm not certain why- perhaps because I sometimes write reasoned criticism of certain Americanisms and because I'm a Fur-in-er people get ruffled.  Understandable after 9/11).  Anyone who has ever felt this way should see in my post here the deepest admiration for the "Experts."  The same "experts" I was asking after ("Where are the experts? Where are those deadly professionals, those that operate in threes and fours and fives, that cuddle up close to those that would do us harm and spill their blood in almost ritualistic sanctity?") here:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=142412&page=1

Well, I found them.

Quoted: Tatjana: As always you are THE goddess.  A very complete after action report. Marry me and bear my children.

Damn!  He beat me to it...you are the best.  Can't ask for the marriage bit...been in that institution for 30 years.  You DO a wonderful job of keeping us informed though.

Thanks!  

Quoted: Quoted: Tatjana: As always you are THE goddess.  A very complete after action report. Marry me and bear my children. Damn!  He beat me to it...you are the best.  Can't ask for the marriage bit...been in that institution for 30 years.  You DO a wonderful job of keeping us informed though. Thanks!

MOST of the stuff is in the normal news channels, but just occasionally I get a little tidbit.

Quoted: Well, one thing is for certain.....the rounds chosen, whatever they were, more than did the job. This is a perfect example of what well trained operators are capable of doing. I agree that the type of rounds used here doesn't matter at all. Whether they were 40 gr varmint loads or 77 gr. whatever loads, when you place bullets in the areas that these went, it is a no-brainer (no pun intended, well, maybe a little!). I just wish that when we discuss for pages the effectiveness of certain loads, or the 5.56mm vs. 308 debates, that this type of stuff would come up. When you place the bullets in the right zones, you are going to be effective. Rounds stacked from the neck on up to the head are going to bring down fanatical terrorist butt-munches. Dead is dead.....be it from a .22, 5.56mm, 7.62x39mm or 7.62 NATO. As witnessed from the above photos, proper marksmanship training and tactics are far more important than ammo selection. ---Charging Handle

Because I think most people here take that as a given condition. However, its not just skill thats required to shoot like that, its also opportunity. Even if you have that kind of skill-and most people dont-what if a torso shot is all you are presented with?

Plan for failure. Plan for the worst case scenerio.

Quoted: Most likely the 75 grain TAP equivalent. According to one researcher it seems that the military 75 grain version is loaded to about 2800 fps (2550 for commercial versions). Hornady recently got an order for a million rounds of 75 grain from "a certain unit." That makes this the most likely option, probably. The military 77 grain round is a 77 gr MK running around 2800 fps or so Those sound like velocities from a 20" barrel, correct? Thus when fired from a carbine the military ammo is close to the figures for commercial ammo?

No, I'm told those velocities are from a 16" carbine.

No, I'm told those velocities are from a 16" carbine.

Is this considered +P ammo?

I am surprised that that little case can handle that, it means 5.56 has been underloaded considerably throughout its career.

I wonder how it would go out of a 20"? It would have to be close to 3000fps.

We just had some threads here about the Malaysian 55gr 5.56 popping primers when chronying around 3250 from a 20". They must of found some kind of unusual or new powder or something.

Quoted: No, I'm told those velocities are from a 16" carbine.   Is this considered +P ammo? I am surprised that that little case can handle that, it means 5.56 has been underloaded considerably throughout its career. I wonder how it would go out of a 20"? It would have to be close to 3000fps.

No surprise there.  M193 (55 grains) is 3250 or so.  M855 (62 grains) is around 3100.

I guess I was thinking of the velocities of the 16". My mistake.

why does everyone think the guard detail specifically the wounded warrior are from Dev Group?

ArmdLbrl - Black Hills 77 gr BTHP Match King
@ 2735 f/s 16" 1:7 (GKR source)

A cop buddy and I chrono'd some of the HSM (original Navy 77gr) stuff @ 3030 f/s out of a 20"

Going to try it next week from a 10.5" and give velo's - did not need to.
I re-read GKR memo - velo 2439f/s - very very impressive gell result. (note to self buy more 77gr)
@ 2565 14.5" for the 75gr TAP
I would recommend any LE ERT types here to get in touch with GKR and see if he can give you a copy of his work and/or recommend (with data) a round to use for any of your 5.56mm and 7.62mm needs.
best way is throught questions on the Terminal Ballistics forum 64.177.53.248/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=The+Terminal+Effects+Forum&number=78&DaysPrune=10&LastLogin=
at Tactical Forums.
Hey Tatjana - if you and Derek ever want to come up to the GWN (Calgary or Edmonton) we could arrange a gel test w/o any silly SBR restrictions

Quoted: why does everyone think the guard detail specifically the wounded warrior are from Dev Group?

Because the guy has a SIG P226. Which is considered a Navy trademark. And Dev Group are the Navy CT specialists. And because the CAR's they are using are a version supposedly put togeather by NSWC Crane.

I take it you read JAW's posts on the other threads? He was pretty convinced that those carbines and the wounded guys SIG ment that all the bodyguards were Navy.

However, if Tatjana source is right the wounded guy is from one of the SEAL teams who is just doing work of somekind in the Kandahar area.

With US SOCOM now there is really no piece of equipment that is totally exclusive to one SPECOPS unit to another. Each still has their prefrences and things that they are known to use repeatedly or are known to have introduced to the SPECOPS community.

Quoted: Quoted: why does everyone think the guard detail specifically the wounded warrior are from Dev Group? Because the guy has a SIG P226. Which is considered a Navy trademark. And Dev Group are the Navy CT specialists. And because the CAR's they are using are a version supposedly put togeather by NSWC Crane. I take it you read JAW's posts on the other threads? He was pretty convinced that those carbines and the wounded guys SIG ment that all the bodyguards were Navy. However, if Tatjana source is right the wounded guy is from one of the SEAL teams who is just doing work of somekind in the Kandahar area. With US SOCOM now there is really no piece of equipment that is totally exclusive to one SPECOPS unit to another. Each still has their prefrences and things that they are known to use repeatedly or are known to have introduced to the SPECOPS community.

It was explained to me that Special Activities Divison works with a hodgepodge of SPECOPS depending on availability and mission.  I chewed off my source's ear because I'm facinated with the fact that they recruit women.  :)  Apparently they will try to keep existing SPECOPS operatives working with their existing teams, rather than break them up.

I asked about why the Delta guys (who are officially suppoed to be the protective detail for Karzai) weren't more in evidence.  I kicked myself when I heard the answer cause it's pretty obvious.

Basic doctrine of executive protection: The lion share of the protective team goes WITH the executive.  Cleanup is handled by local law enforcement or one or two leave behinds that have that job assigned to them.

Makes sense that the guys who were sorta "unofficial" protection (along for the ride) would linger a bit longer, and also they had a wounded comrade.

Notice also, the wounded guy didn't have a vest at all.  He also has a different AR setup (no optics- just a cutback handle OR a specialized flatop rear sight) than the vest pair.

I chewed off my source's ear because I'm facinated with the fact that they recruit women.

Contemplating a career change?

It makes sense for the CIA to have female SAD people doesn't it? Who is going to expect women with these kind of skills in training coming out of this country?  Look how adamant the US military is about keeping women out of combat roles. They simply are not going to be looked for.

And you can see in all these photos, US military SF men are not exactly inconspicuous. Because the CIA recruits its parimilitaries mostly from men retiring from the military SF community guess what happens- they still fit the SF profile, only perhaps a little older. Throwing some women in confuses the issue.

According to tonights 11PM news, which included video, there were two unintended casualties. A security Gaurd and a bystander in the wrong place at the wrong time. Killed by mistake by the US troops.

Quoted: According to tonights 11PM news, which included video, there were two unintended casualties. A security Gaurd and a bystander in the wrong place at the wrong time. Killed by mistake by the US troops.

And this has what to do with the topic of this thread?

Quoted: And this has what to do with the topic of this thread?

Since Tatjana opened the can of worms of how the shooting went done, including incorrect info like "U.S. Special Forces, including both the NSW group and Delta respond, dismount their tailing vehicle and return fire at three aggressors.", so I posted a correction.

They returned fire at ONE agressor, killing him and two bystanders in the process. It is unknown at this time if the bystanders were killed by stray rounds, over penetrating rounds, or if they were deliberately killed in a case of mistaken identity.

AR15fan - are you a failed SF candidate?
You seem to pick on any point you can to try and show them in a Bad light.

Quoted: Why do all these guys put rubber bands around their stocks?

probably so the button doesnt accidentally depress causing the collapsible stock to change length at the
"wrong time"

Quoted: AR15fan - are you a failed SF candidate?

No. Thank you for asking.

Are you a homosexual? Or is that only the people who train you?

SUMMARY: The Canadian military is using a gay fitness show to train the troops.
story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/po/20020906/co_po/canada__military_buys_gay_tv_shows

From one of the posts above it seems like there might be a bit of confusion with NSW.  The Dev Group guys are SEALs.  It just seemed like one of the earlier posts implied that they were different all together.

Quoted: Shouldnt it be NSW Sailor? Sailors are not soldiers.

You are very annoying.

Thanks, tatjana...spot on as always!

AR15fan...get stuffed!

How was the Sailor wounded? He was inside a building and the assasin was in the street & fired 5 rounds into a vehicle. Was the Sailor a friendly fire casualty?