Hello,

Am I just looking in the wrong place, or is there no real .22LR AR FAQ?  Could someone either point me to it, or at least give me the go ahead to start asking my stupid questions?

Thanks,
~Augee

ETA:  Okay, I guess I'll start with a few questions, then:

I've been thinking about setting up an 727 carbine to go with my M4gery, kind of as a lightweight rig to practice and play with, and I'm wanting it in 5.56.  However, money is tight with me right now, but that doesn't mean I'm willing to sacrifice quality, which means I'm making fewer purchases at higher prices (not be confused with overpaying!), and right now, ammo eats up a goodly bit of that money too, so I'm thinking that .22LR conversion may be a smart investment, so I can get more practice in for less money.  

So, I know this sounds like a stupid question, but I'd rather make sure than just trust in my assumptions, but a "drop in conversion" like the Ceiner kit is just that, right?  I put it in my 14.7", 1/7 twist upper, attached to my standard carbine lower, and I'm good to go?  Is the bolt going to conflict with the buffer and spring?  Chambering a round, locking back the magazine, dropping mags would all be the same functions?  What I'm interested in is basically making my operation of the AR platform as smooth as possible, so I've got no questions whatsoever in a SHTF situation (I'm NG, so it's a possibility) about what I'm doing.  Which to me has always meant training on 5.56, so I'm dealing with the whole package of stimuli, recoil, sound, ect.  Which, my AR has been serving me well in doing.  Given that consideration in mind, how good of an idea is a .22LR conversion for me?  I know it has lighter recoil, and less sound, but what about everything else?  Particularly mag changes?  

Another question related to that, I notice that a few photos I've seen of .22LR AR's have magazines that look just like regular 5.56 mags, but most are those odd, skinny ones that look like they'd have limited situational training value for me.  Where do I get the ones that look like regular AR mags, how many rounds do they hold, and how much do they cost?

Training my girlfriend on a .22LR AR might be easier, as she's a little intimidated by the ferocity of the 5.56 round (I know, I know, it's already a small calibre bullet, and has pretty light recoil compared to a .308, but it's still more than she likes, and 14.7" barrel can be loud, if you're not accustomed to it), but my AR carbine('s' hopefully, if I can put together a stake on another one) are our home defense weapons also, how well would training her on .22LR transfer into being able to pick up and go on a 5.56?  Or even me, for that matter, though I'd probably still prefer 5.56 as my primary training round, and .22LR for straight marksmanship and fun.

I think that's all for now...

Thanks,
~Augee

Start asking, I'll probably learn something.

I think the most asked question would be where to get hi cap mags.  
It is truly a shame that there is no cheap source of hi cap mags for .22 uppers over 2 years after the ban ended.

You could always get Ciener highcaps, if you want to pay out the ass for them and wait three or four months to get them.

~GnSx

the needs of the many (non 22lr owners) outweight the needs of the few or one (us 22lr fans)

same goes or the CZ kadet.  theres room for some extra rounds in the mag, but they only put 10

spend the 200 bones on a kit and extra mags, try it fo yourself and sell it for a couple less bucks if you don't like...?

many have looked into producing highcaps...tooling is prohibitively expensive for the market...

I'd like to hear some recomendations also....

Quoted: I'd like to hear some recomendations also....

Specifically?

         To install the Ceiner you press the rear takedown pin ,pull the standard 5.56 bolt out of the gun and replace it with the Ceiner. (swap them out if you perfer that description) The operating Handle retracts the bolt of the ceiner in the usuall manner except the bolt does not lock back. The standard buffer and spring remains in the gun against the rear of the Ceiner but the operating spring for the Ceiner is part of the unit itself . The Ceiner mag has a block that is part of the mag which fills the standard mag well and is held and dropped by the standard AR mag release. Yes the bottom of the mag that hangs out of the mag well is fairly skinny . Some who object to this look take a plastic Orlite AR mag and fit it around and attach it to the Ceiner mag to make it look similar to a regular Ar mag..
        After shooting the Ceiner I push a patch and or a brush through the bore before swapping the bolts back and shooting the 5.56. The blowback 22 lr blows a lot of grit down into the trigger so that can use a shot or two of gunscrubber or break cleaner also.
       The Ceiner is a great training tool besides a ton of cheep shooting fun . When I am training new shooters on the 5.56 I find the noise to be as much of an issue as the recioil. I find that useing good earmufs over foam ear plugs to be very helpfull

Quoted: Quoted: I'd like to hear some recomendations also.... Specifically?

Which one people who own them purchased and reasons why they purchased the one they did.  But i posted my original response in this thread before i searched all 5pgs in this forum.... so now i have a half ass idea of what i think i want... but still wouldn’t mind hearing others experiences

Some pics of my dedicated upper.  Ciener and M261 conversions will both work fine in a regular AR upper - remove BCG, drop in the conversion, load and shoot.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=15&t=302635

Another question related to that, I notice that a few photos I've seen of .22LR AR's have magazines that look just like regular 5.56 mags, but most are those odd, skinny ones that look like they'd have limited situational training value for me. Where do I get the ones that look like regular AR mags, how many rounds do they hold, and how much do they cost?

M261 conversions (and Olyarms clone) use a 10-round magazine that inserts into a regular 20 or 30 round AR magazine.  I just bought a bunch of them from Numrich for $13.50 each.  Link.

my question is - there look to be several kits out there - but which magazines fit with which kits?
it's probably all the same kit anyway, and the mags are probably all the same too , they are just probably stamped with a different OEM name or something,
but for $50-$70 PER MAGAZINE - that's an expensive lesson to learn!

i purchased the colt upper from one of those selling them recently , added the ceinar with a couple 10 round mags and have what i need to spend time at the range ,. its no 100yd wonder but it actually behaves very well at normal 22 practice ranges
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles004.jpg
the lower is from my DPMS , the rig functions perfectly so far , 22 upper is in the lower foreground

I found an article online that talks about the downfall of drop in units.  One of the specific complaints is that the barrel twist of an ar is not designed for 22lr and thus results in fouling the barrel and potential blockage of the gas tube.  Has anyone ever experienced this?  I'd hate to drop in a 22lr conversion into my $1000 rifle only to cause problems.

Here's the article:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_47/ai_78130023

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'd like to hear some recomendations also.... Specifically? Which one people who own them purchased and reasons why they purchased the one they did.  But i posted my original response in this thread before i searched all 5pgs in this forum.... so now i have a half ass idea of what i think i want... but still wouldn’t mind hearing others experiences

Ceiner- (+) 30rnd mags and there are a number of folks who make barrels with breechfaces that mate to the bolt group for a dedicated upper. Great for the types of practice I do in my backyard, both highpower and practical.
         (-) the feedlips on most mags need to be tweeked to prevent a chronic stovepipe type malfunction
          (+) the feedlips are easy to tweak/file because they are made of low grade steel
         (-) the company's namesake is...less than social
          (-) new 30 rounders are about 60 bucks and only avail at one place...

M261-(+)Mags go into 20/30 rnd .223 magazines for a better "look" and more realistic feel for rapid mag changes
       (+/-) Compasslake is the only shop using them to make dedicated uppers. Great product and you pay for the quality...many happy, serious, dedicated, and probably wealthy customers.  No tire kickers please!
      (-) only 10 rnds per mag if that matters to you
       use this one to drop into any other uppers I care to play with in .22
      (+) general consensus is that the construction on these is better than the Ceiner
       (-) spare parts may become more expensive or altogether unavailable

Most of my rounds go through the Ceiner and I've learned it, tweaked it and it runs like a raped ape

Quoted: my question is - there look to be several kits out there - but which magazines fit with which kits? it's probably all the same kit anyway, and the mags are probably all the same too , they are just probably stamped with a different OEM name or something, but for $50-$70 PER MAGAZINE - that's an expensive lesson to learn!

Ceiner mags for Ceiner
M261 INSERTs for M261

NOT COMPATABLE

Quoted: I found an article online that talks about the downfall of drop in units.  One of the specific complaints is that the barrel twist of an ar is not designed for 22lr and thus results in fouling the barrel and potential blockage of the gas tube.  Has anyone ever experienced this?  I'd hate to drop in a 22lr conversion into my $1000 rifle only to cause problems. Here's the article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_10_47/ai_78130023

I think the leading/gas system plug issue is more myth than truth...then again I use a dedicated upper! I have not heard or seen evidence from credible or other sources that this has happened to anyone.  If it has it was likely under extreme circumstances---thousands and thousands of rounds w/out cleaning OR putting .223/5.56 down the bore to blow out the system as recommended by the manufacturers. Or full auto.  22lr bores in .22lr firearms don't wear appreciably or lead over time...pressures are LOW. Fouling is the burnt and unburned powder residue...won't plug your gas system. Chamber crud would be more of the isue for reliability but it is soft and not baked on like carbon from a center fire.  Gunzilla ROCKS.

Maybe the Mods could tack this one as a start???

height=8

Quoted: Maybe the Mods could tack this one as a start???

I agree

Would anyone else like to see a couple of tacked threads for 22 uppers?  I was thinking that it would make it easier for the newbie to find the basic info, and easier for the old timers to not have to answer the same questions over again.  Are 9mm ARs four times more popular than 22?  Maybe a thread about dedicated 22 uppers, and a thread about 22 conversions, or 22 magazines, etc....  

Quoted: M261 . . . (-) spare parts may become more expensive or altogether unavailable

Since Oly is now making these, spare parts may not be an issue.

So is direct from Oly the only way to get the m261 clone? I don't see any Oly dealers carrying them.

I am writing/compiling a comparison chart for .22 conversion kits, and I want to make it as complete and accurate as possible.

What are the common kits on the market now? I have Ciener, M261/Oly, DPMS, and Bushmaster right now. Also, what kind of information should be included? So far it's "Maximum Mag Capacity, Drop-in, M-16 Compatible, Kit Availability, Look and Feel, Serviceability,Parts Availability" I don't know all the information I just mentioned about these kits, but I trust you'll should! I do not have any of them, or an AR for that matter, (that little problem will be fixed in due time,) but I feel I can at least do this for the people like me, looking for quick info.

Quoted: I am writing/compiling a comparison chart for .22 conversion kits, and I want to make it as complete and accurate as possible.

Original thread involves a .22LR FAQ, not just the conversion kits.  If you intend to include dedicated uppers, remember Compass Lake.

the more i read about these, the more i think they are a bad idea.
dedicated uppers in 22LR are $500+

the drop ins are around $200 maybe a tad less, but ive read they are bad for your .223 barrel - 22LR has 1/16 twist, .223 has 1/9 twist (has GOT to be bad for the barrel - scoring maybe?)

so are there actually any benefits? i'd rather spend $500+ on an entire "parts kit" for a .223 new build!

Relax- there's no way in Hell that you are going to harm a .223 barrel by shooting .22 rimfire through it.  The .22 bullets are either swaged lead (dead soft) or plated swaged lead(not much harder).  The twist rate will affect the accuracy of your shooting, but if you experiment with different types of ammo you will probably find one that is accurate enough for your uses.  Snake45 has done a lot of testing with .22 conversions and has come up with some pretty respectable groups with some ammo.

There is a possibility that you will foul the gas tube of your upper if you shoot a BUNCH of .22 rimfire through the rifle.  To avoid this you can remove the gas tube and plug the hole with a short section of (aluminum, brass, steel) tubing (which keeps your upper much cleaner while shooting rimfire), or you can just finish every range session by putting the .223 bolt assembly back in the rifle and sending a magazine of .223 down range.  This will blow out any rimfire crud.  Or you can just buy a spare gas tube and keep it "in case" you manage to block the one in the rifle.

In any case, there's no significant damage you can do to your rifle.  As an aside, the 1-7 and 1-9 twist barrels work very well with the Aguila 60 grain SSS ammo (in case you have or are contemplating a silencer).

I have Colt conversion, Ciener conversion, and the Bushmaster dedicated upper. Sounds like to me, for your purpose, I'd definetly go with the Bushmaster dedicated. I know money doesn't grow on trees, but this is a quality piece that will last a lifetime. We use them for HighPower training. Fantastic tool!!!!!! Excellent for introducing new shooters. Reliable and  very accurate!

Just my .02.

Good Luck!
Wind-Out

What are the chances of baffel strikes with the stock AR barrel and a suppressor.

How about a short 4 or 5 inch barrel? Am I going to blow holes in my tac65?

You have to be careful of the 60 grain SSS ammo, as it can tumble badly in regular 1-16 .22 rimfire barrels.  Other than that, no problem.  Think about it- how many pistols are there with 4-5" barrels that are being shot with cans on them every day?  The bullet doesn't care if it's being launched in something with a shoulder stock or not.  Standard .22 ammo will work fine in any barrel you use.  The SSS will work fine in the fast-twist barrels.

I have launched many rounds of all sorts of .22 rimfire in barrels ranging from 20" to 5.5".  The only problems I ever had were the SSS rounds in a standard barrel.  Always check your bullet strikes on a close-range piece of paper with the can OFF the rifle before you start using a new type of ammo.  If there's any signs of tumbling or bullet tipping, don't use it with the can.  If the holes are nice and circular, go have fun.

What about a standard 5.56 barrel with conversion?

Answered in your other post.

Quoted: What about a standard 5.56 barrel with conversion?

I'd be careful there

5.56 actual diameter is .224

The actual diameter of 22LR is .221

There is actually a difference in the barrel size, and it may be enough to get you 'strikes'...

Quoted: Quoted: What about a standard 5.56 barrel with conversion? I'd be careful there 5.56 actual diameter is .224 The actual diameter of 22LR is .221 There is actually a difference in the barrel size, and it may be enough to get you 'strikes'...

I've had none. Shoot SSS thru a 5.56 upper, no strikes yet.

What ever happened to the cz uppers?

Who has them?

They were very affordable compared to the drop in conversion.

GROUP buy?????

Al

height=8

Quoted: What ever happened to the cz uppers? Who has them? They were very affordable compared to the drop in conversion. GROUP buy????? Al

a group buy would ROCK - this site is taking orders but are out of stock
http://www.impactguns.com/store/CZ-02CC001.html
(not sure on linking sites, so if this is unacceptable, i'll remove it)

this thread talks about the CZ and the lack of parts if they break - they must be made!
http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/showthread.php?t=49311
that concerns me too!!!!

I think Model 1 Sales is distributing V22s now, and they stock spare parts!  Midway and KY Importers now list them as the "Model 1 V22 Upper".  They were originally distributed in the USA by Victor Arms (IIRC) and then by ADCO Sales.  I bought mine from RB Precision when ADCO Sales was the distributor, and wasn't able to find parts until Model 1 took over.

NOTE:  CZ Strakonice isn't the same company as CZUB, which distributes it's products through its US subsidiary CZ-USA.  They are different spinoffs from the commie system.

I'll throw in my $0.02 on the conversions.  If I had it to do over again, I'd get one of the newer uppers from Kuehl Precision.  IIRC, someone else is selling 10/22 barrels modified to attach to the Ciener kit in the same way as the Kuehls:



Unless you have a 1x12 barrel, or only shoot Aguila SSS, you probably aren't going to get great accuracy with the standard Ciener or M261 kits.

The V22 is OK, but mine has fired out of battery on two separate occasions (destroying a plastic magazine each time).  Compass lake makes great uppers, too.  But they are made and priced for competitive shooters.

I suprised no one has mention the dedicated .22lr uppers that are available from Kuehl Precision Firearms.  These use realy .22lr barrels with the correct twist, etc.  They use a modified Ceiner bolt carrier goup and Ceiner mags.  They are available in just about any configuration you want from M4 style to M16 style and lots of other variations.

A friend of my has several of these and I have had the pleasure of shooting one.  They are sweet.  I now have one on order and should receive it pretty soon.

Here is a link: http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/

Quoted: I'll throw in my $0.02 on the conversions.  If I had it to do over again, I'd get one of the newer uppers from Kuehl Precision

It's in the post above yours

Quoted: You have to be careful of the 60 grain SSS ammo, as it can tumble badly in regular 1-16 .22 rimfire barrels.  Other than that, no problem.  Think about it- how many pistols are there with 4-5" barrels that are being shot with cans on them every day?  The bullet doesn't care if it's being launched in something with a shoulder stock or not.  Standard .22 ammo will work fine in any barrel you use.  The SSS will work fine in the fast-twist barrels. I have launched many rounds of all sorts of .22 rimfire in barrels ranging from 20" to 5.5".  The only problems I ever had were the SSS rounds in a standard barrel.  Always check your bullet strikes on a close-range piece of paper with the can OFF the rifle before you start using a new type of ammo.  If there's any signs of tumbling or bullet tipping, don't use it with the can.  If the holes are nice and circular, go have fun.

concur with the above and to add: Stability created by gyroscopic effect that twist imparts on bullet is proportional to bullet velocity.  Bullet still-no spin, bullet max velocity-max spin.  Shorter barrel may produce lower velocity...lower rotational rate (spin) and, at some point...less stability. trivia.

(-) new 30 rounders are about 60 bucks and only avail at one place...
*****Actually, try these guys for thirty round mags:  Rick Kuehl (Kuehl Precision Firearms) sells them as does a fellow named "arctic seven" ([email protected]).  The 30 round mags are out there.*****

You could also look into KKF (Kurts Kustom Firearms).  His dedicated upper allows use of any unmodified .22LR conversion kit, but you get the advantage of a .221 barrel with the correct twist rate.  I have had one for going on six years now with no problems / complaints.  I am using an unmodified Ciener Kit in mine.

Thanks,

Brad

height=8

Quoted: (-) new 30 rounders are about 60 bucks and only avail at one place... *****Actually, try these guys for thirty round mags:  Rick Kuehl (Kuehl Precision Firearms) sells them as does a fellow named "arctic seven" ([email protected]).  The 30 round mags are out there.***** You could also look into KKF (Kurts Kustom Firearms).  His dedicated upper allows use of any unmodified .22LR conversion kit, but you get the advantage of a .221 barrel with the correct twist rate.  I have had one for going on six years now with no problems / complaints.  I am using an unmodified Ciener Kit in mine. Thanks, Brad

ok, so apparently i got so excited with the $455 price tag, i failed to notice that the upper does not come with a modified ciener, or atchisson kit!
dangit, i thought i had hit paydirt with kuehl's site!

Quoted: the more i read about these, the more i think they are a bad idea. dedicated uppers in 22LR are $500+

You can find several for less than that.  Model 1 Sales sells the V22 Mk 1 for $349.  The MSRP for the Bushmaster Carbon 15 .22 Upper is $387.  The DPMS upper goes for $500 at Brownells.  All can be found for less from time to time.  For a while there were great deals on the V-22 and DPMS 22LR at Cheaper Than Dirt and/or Sportsman's Guide.

I have a V22, and can recommend one now that Model 1 has taken over so parts are available.  Previously, my biggest gripe was that there were no replacement parts.

height=8

Quoted: height=8 Quoted: the more i read about these, the more i think they are a bad idea. dedicated uppers in 22LR are $500+ You can find several for less than that.  Model 1 Sales sells the V22 Mk 1 for $349.  The MSRP for the Bushmaster Carbon 15 .22 Upper is $387.  The DPMS upper goes for $500 at Brownells.  All can be found for less from time to time.  For a while there were great deals on the V-22 and DPMS 22LR at Cheaper Than Dirt and/or Sportsman's Guide. I have a V22, and can recommend one now that Model 1 has taken over so parts are available.  Previously, my biggest gripe was that there were no replacement parts.

i like the "factory" look of the kuehl - but i can't argue with a price tag considerably less - is it safe to assume that model1's kit is truly drop in - and all i'd need is a complete lower and put the 2 together? that would definitely make more economic sense - the only thing i don't like is that it only has 10 round mags!
i guess there's a trade off - spend a LOT and get the capability of 30rd. mags, or spend a LOT LESS and get 10 round! just wish it was possible to get the best of both worlds!!!

i checked model 1 and unless i'm an idiot - they are OUT of them!
has the link changed?

anyone got a link for the bushmaster 22 kit?
how about a DPMS kit?

i want a complete upper that will snap together with my current lower!

RCS Guns makes a dedicated .22 upper with a custom Ciener kit for $478. I talked with Charlie Tilghman the gun show in Mesquite TX last weekend about his uppers he had on display, and he turns all his own barrels from 10/22 barrels. They have a variety of types, from 20" rifles, 16" irons on a carbine upper, and aluminum handguards (no sights) on a flat top upper for use with red dot optics. His uppers use the Ciener chamber "collar" setup similar to what Kuehl uses and a stock Ciener conversion kit.

rcsguns.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=7&Itemid=1

Damn - not there anymore!  So much for my Model-1 as reliable source of parts theory...  I wonder if they were just liquidating the reaminins stock in-country?  I wonder if more can/will be imported.  They were produced by CZ Strakonice (NOT CZUB/CZ-USA) in the Czech Republic...

Quoted: Damn - not there anymore!  So much for my Model-1 as reliable source of parts theory...  I wonder if they were just liquidating the reaminins stock in-country?  I wonder if more can/will be imported.  They were produced by CZ Strakonice (NOT CZUB/CZ-USA) in the Czech Republic...

yeah, these facts are starting to concern me - if i can't even buy one, what kind of spare parts are out there - i found the bushmaster kit but it only comes with a 10 round magazine and they only have 10 round mags available
http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/uppers/post-ban/az15846k.asp

i still want to get this as cheap as possible - i mean seriously - for not much more, i can buy parts to build another complete AR!

anyone else got any links????

Well, if/when my V22 breaks, I'm gonna build myself a 10/22.  I can't justify $300, $400 or more for a .22 AR upper...

Quoted: Well, if/when my V22 breaks, I'm gonna build myself a 10/22.  I can't justify $300, $400 or more for a .22 AR upper...

i think i'm with you - got any cool links you can PM me to build some sort of tactical 10/22? the krinkov 10/22 conversion at cheaper than dirt seems still a bit pricey - so an AR15 conversion for a 10/22 would be exactly what the doctor ordered!

Well my 2cents. I have the Olympic (M261) conversion comes with one ten rd mag. Numrich sells mags for 13.60. I use a dedicated 30 rd mag with loose floorplate. Pull floorplate and is easier to insert and remove .22 mags. Mine runs great no problems. When am done shooting I run a 10 rd mag of .223 through it. Only takes a minute to switch back and forth.

How does the Oly M261 compare to the USGI units?  Has anyone had any problems mixing and matching?  I'm still looking for a cheap way to practice using all my equipment for 5.56 in a  .22LR.  Are the mag conversions permanent, or complete?

Thanks,
~Augee

I've used my two Ciener conversion kits in at least 5 different AR's without a problem.  They run well, and so far are the only conversion kits that have high cap mags available.  

I disagree with the article about barrel fouling and the fact that the difference in bullet/barrel diameters means you will have a .22 rattling down your .223 barrel.  I've recovered many .22's shot from my 4.5" AR barrel that show deep rifling marks similar to what you'd see from any other .22 firearm.

As far as accuracy, well I don't target shoot, but at the local quarry I've shot at a 6 gallon propane tank at a little over 100 yards, and can hit it every time using the 4.5" barrel through a suppressor and an Eotech sight, which is just a 1 power device.  I'm not a great shot, but that's as much accuracy as I expect from any .22 at that range without magnification and a bench rest.

I've got a DIAS, and run a lot of full auto through one gun, and have probably shot at least 8,000 rounds through it with no loss of function or accuracy.  If you're a paper puncher you might want to go with a custom upper from Rick Kuehl or one of the others, but it's not an absolute requirement.   I'd reccommend trying one of the conversions in your gun first, and then decide if you need the pricey barrel option or not.

As far as ammo goes, there is no need to go to the 60 gr. SSS if you are using a short barrel.  I have tried most of the common .22 ammo and find I get the best results with CCI MiniMags.  It's a little more expensive, but clean, accurate, and very reliable.

There are a few threads on the board that deal with Black Dog mags (30 rounders, $25-$30 each) for the Ciener kits you might want to read to hear how others are doing also.