I bought a Cenier (sp?) .22 conversion kit that I have messed with yet - got a good price on it brand new.

What are your experiences with them? Are they worth the trouble or should I just get a separate upper?

I just got a CZ .22LR upper for ~$350 and it is a neat setup.  16" bbl and flattop upper is the configuration on it.  I put the ACOG I had on my preban that I sold on it and it is a very fun gun.  It would be worth looking into. It comes with a 10 round mag, but you can get extras.

[beer]

I highly recommend a dedicated upper.  There are a number of companies that make them, I personally own the Fulton Armory .22lr upper and am very pleased.  I hear the DPMS makes a great product as well.

I just use a my regular 20 inch h-bar upper. Work good for busting up pop can at 33 yards at my dad farm. I know it shoots minute of can.

Here's a pic of my Kuehl dedicated upper on my Group Industries M16a1.  I could not be happier with it.  The fit and function is excellent.  Rick Kuehl's upper does not use the chamber adapter in the Ciener conversion.  It's extremely accurate as one would expect (rifling is 1 in 16).  Click on the link to visit his website and learn more.  http://www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com
Dan
[img]http://home.ix.netcom.com/~brownhen/_uimages/M16withKuehlupper.jpg[/img]

I ordered the same upper and I am waiting anxiously! Out of curiosity, How did you add the AR-15 mag bodies to the ciener 22 cal mags?

Cut the Orlite feed lips off matching the same angle of the Ciener mag.  You need to "sandwich" the Ceiner mag body between layers of cardboard.  The layers of cardboard must be cut to make a TIGHT fit inside the Orlite mag body.  You can use a couple strips of duc tape to keep the cardboard aligned as you insert everything into the Orlite mag.  I like using cardboard as it will not trap moisture against the Ciener mag.  This works extremely well with 30 round Ciener mags.  The 10 round mags don't fit nearly as tight.  I didn't mind cutting these Orlite mags as they were only $2.50 a piece from Knob Creek, April 2002.

Dan

At first, my Ciener AR-15 conversion wouldn't let me rapid fire a 10 round mag.  For one reason or another, I either had a stovepipe or a failure to extract.  500 rounds later, things are getting better.  I can usually rapid fire a 10 round mag.  After 200 - 300 rounds I usually run a boresnake through and shoot a mag of .223 to clean things out.

The conversion kit is really fun.  It was a real good way to introduce the AR to the teenage daughter.  She is now graduated to .223 and always has a big smile on her face.

The best use for the steel aftermarket AR mags is to convert Ciener mags to look like regular mags.  I believe KKF does the conversions if you don't want to try it yourself.

My kit jammed fairly often at first, but has gotten better as it's broken in.  Most common jam was an "upside down stovepipe" where the mouth of the case got stuck between the bolt and the charging handle, which is kind of a pain to clear because you can't use the charging handle to hold the bolt back (and you can't lock it back).  

Lately the only problem I've had is a tendency to get dud rounds from light hits, compounded by a failure to extract.  It extracts/ejects fine when firing, but usually won't pull an unfired round from the chamber.  I adjusted the end of the extractor once and it helped, but it's doing it again.

BTW, anybody know where to get parts for the kits besides trying to order from Ciener directly?

It gets the inside of the upper VERY dirty, and accuracy isn't the greatest, but overall the kit's been a lot of fun.  I'll probably get a dedicated upper from Kuehl or KKF as soon as funds allow.

What I want to know is why the heck the dedicated .22 uppers cost so much?

It seems to me that instead of trying to use a "real" A2 or A3 upper, some company should come into the market with a cheapo cast upper, their own bolt system, some very entry level .22 barrels, and some plastic cast replica hand guards.  A minimally adjustable rear sight would satisfy most .22 plinker types.  

With all the fire control, etc., already in place in the lower, there is no reason that I can see whatsoever as to why an "entry level" .22lr upper should cost any more than a Marlin Model 60, perhaps plus $20 to $30 for the magazines.

When you think about it, a .22 upper should cost about the same as a .223 upper.  The only parts you can really leave out are the gas tube and the forward assist.

The DPMS upper is just under $400, which is about the same as a .223 upper with bolt.  The CZ upper is running closer to $300 and is probably about as cheap as you can get.

I'm guessing the main cost difference is in the barrels.  I believe most of the "semi-custom" makers like KKF use match-grade barrel blanks.  Even if they didn't, you have to do the machining on it.  Nobody makes assembly-line barrels in .22 for the AR.

The main reason I think nobody's made a cheap .22 upper is that the volumes are too low to make special parts.  Realistically it's probably cheaper to use a forged AR part than to have a cast part specially made.  Marlin 60s and Ruger 10/22s are as cheap as they are because they make millions and can spread out the development costs.

Mike, as I know it, the extractor will not "grag" the casing until the round is fired and the casing is pushed back during recoil.  Now if you get failures in extracting after the round has fired, then you've got a problem.  Some types of ammunition are better than others when overcoming light primer strikes.  Federal is one of the best for me when compared to others.  Ceiner is the only one I know of that carries spare parts.

Dan

I played with it some more last night and the extractor won't fully engage the rim until the case has moved back about 1/8" or so.  If the case fires, that's not a problem as the case moves back on its own.  When ejecting an unfired round, the extractor barely touches the outside edge of the rim.  If the case doesn't stick, it'll move back and get a full grip.  But if the case sticks at all, the extractor will slip past it.  

I'm with Gonzo.  There is really no reason that a conversion upper should cost so much.  With modern manufacturing technology, an upper could be made from either zinc or plastic for pennies.  Quality .22 barrels abound and can be had for not much money.  If a dedicated .22 upper could be had for about $150, they'd sell like hotcakes to everyone who has an AR.

I bought a Keuhl barrel only (.22lr chamber, front sight post) and assembled it on a spare upper I had laying around and bought the rest of the parts one at at a time.  It was a little cheaper that buying the whole upper, as well as a fun project.  It is super accurate, runs perfectly with Federal Classic high velocity 40 grain solids.  Modifying the Ceiner kit takes about 3 minutes.  There was a little break in time - put about 500-600 rounds through it the other day with only 10-15 misfires of which 90% were duds with good primer strikes.  If you keep the whole thing clean and lubed up it will run well.  If you are really interested in shooting .22's a dedicated upper is the only way to go.

What kind of CZ 22LR upper did you get (who made it)?  Where do you get extra magazines and how much are they?  What do the magazines look like - do they look like the Ciener magazines (metal with a curve) or like the DPMS (square/rectangular) with a plastic outer case?

I just got the Ciener conversion last week also & I love it. I like being able to plink on the cheap! I am using it with a J&T 16 inch upper and a BSA red dot. It really smokes the clay birds at 25 & 50  yards. I have had only 4 duds that did not fire in the first 100 or so rounds and I am using the $7.98 Remmington ammo. What brands of ammo have you guys used with good results?

My Ciener Conversion kit with two (1 extra) ten round magazines arrived a few days ago (took a full eight weeks to get here). Friday I had a chance to install it and use it. Fired about 200 rounds through it, using the Federal Lightning ammo (40 grain solid lead nose High Velocity).  There were no jams, some pretty rapid firing, and only a small amount of residue in cleanup. I will use the Remington Thunderbolts also and see which work best. All in all it was a pleasing shoot with no hitches. I am pleased with the Ciener Conversion kit and it certainly was a cheaper way to go than a new upper. The rifle is a Bushmaster X15-s2e, open sight, fired at 27 yds.
Mike

I'd like to find a barrel for .17 Aguila/High standard new ammo (2500 fps(?) necked down 22LR) and the put the Ciener on it. Any thoughts where to fin such a barrel (Kuehl doesn't do it)

The upper is made by CZ.  It came as a flat top with a float tube and one mag.  The spares are ~$40 and I picked up 2 extras just to have.  The mags are not the cheapo plastic crap, they are metal cased mags 10 rounds only.  The upper shoots real well and I havent had any problems with it.

[beer]

Brownells is selling .17 liners now. Buy a standard not chrome lined barrel and have a gunsmith put a liner in it. Just be careful you don't try & shoot .223 thru it afterwards.

WSAR15,
Have you tried Kurt at KKF for the .17HS barrel?  He can probably do it if the blank is available.  (And put one of his .22 barrel extensions on so you can't accidently put in a .223 bolt.)

Allplay,
One day I shot a bunch of different ammo through mine: Win Xpert bulk, Fed bulk, Rem Golden bulk, CCI Mini-Mags, Win PowerPoint, CCI Blazer for sure, maybe Wolf MT, CCI Velocitor, and Win Dynapoints too.  At 25yds with iron sights and my elbows on the bench I couldn't really tell the difference between them on 20-shot groups.  IIRC the Rem and the Mini-Mags shot a little better, but not a lot.  And they might be different if I ran the test again.  

I had no feeding/cycling problems with any of them, but I did have a few duds.  I'm running a JP trigger & hammer (with stock hammer spring) so I might be getting slightly light hits.

Mike_L:
No I have not asked Kurt Kustom. I agree on the change to a custom barrel extension. The Ciener also fits better.
I'll ask Kurt.

It just occured to me that you'd have to put a liner or something in the chamber adaptor.  I don't think 1" of .22 barel before you hit the .17 rifling would be a good thing.  

It really would be better to have the chamber in the barrel like Kuehl does.  I assume you actually called him and asked?  You might try Derrick Martin over at [url=http://www.accuracyspeaks.com/22lrar15.htm]Accuracy Speaks[/url] too.  He makes barrels for several of the kits, not just Ciener.

I ordered one today. $329.95 from www.aimsurplus.com. They only have about 9 of them, not listed on the web site, you have to call 1-888-748-525 to order, the stock number is V22 Tried to get a good deal on a group buy but they were firm on the price. No extra mags yet. Should be here next week, I'll let ya'll know how it's made with pics. The photo in the flyer looks good, flat-top upper, picatinny gas block, tubular free float handguard, heavy barrel, bolt handle (not charging handle)ad says milled steel parts. Looks nice.

I just ordered my CZ upper from JG for the same price.  They do have extra mags for about $40 each.  

MG

I was one of the 1st to have KKF make an .22lr AR-15 barrel that I put on a spare upper. I can't remember the total cost but it was considerably less than anybody else's proposed pricing. (Nobody actually had dedicated .22lr uppers ready for sale at that time.)

I highly recommend Kurt!

For Highland Mac - where did you get the CZ 22LR upper magazines?

For Mohabie - Who is JG, the place you said you ordered extra magazines for your CZ 22LR upper?

Thanks,
Bubban

[url]www.jgsales.com[/url]

B&B outdoors in Roswell GA  678-352-1720.  Tell them Brad told you to call.  They still have a few in stock now.  

By the way, my CZ upper at 50yrds will shoot a single ragged hole with Federal Gold Medal match ammo.  I tested a few other brands and basically the Federal Lightning will group ~1.5 - 2" inches at 50yrds.  Aguilla 60gr SSS groups a little better than the Lightning but the reliability with the short cases sucks!! Do not use the Aguilla it will be a jam-o-matic.  I bought a box of Eley and a box of CCI Green label to try next.  As of right now the Gold Medal match from Federal is the way to go.

[beer]

I have a Ceiner I bought a while back. It had a couple of problems.

To fix mine I shimmed up the extractor spring, deburred and mildly reshaped the extractor claw, polished the feed ramp and chamber, and lapped in the recoil spring retaining pin.

Shimming up the extractor spring and polishing the chamber and feed ramp went a long way to getting rid of the cycling problems.

To make the extractor spring shim, simply find a nail thin enough to loosly fit the extractor spring hole (you want the shim to be able to fall out when remove the extractor spring) and slice a 2mm to 3mm wedge out of it with a Dremel tool.

Polishing the chamber was simply the use of some metal polish paste and a Q-Tip cut in half and chucked up into a cordless drill. You should polish the feed ramp too.

The end flange of the recoil spring pin was sticking into the end of the Ceiner's bolt carrier spring housing during the bolt's recoil. I chucked the retaing pin into a cordless drill, dipped the flange end into some automotive valve lapping compound and lapped the flange end into the recoil spring housing.

The extractor needed de-burring and I also changed it's shape a bit to see if it helped extraction.

I tried to find a Colt or an M261 but there was basicaly none available.

My AR which I use the most has a 20" Colt chrome lined, lightweight M16A1 barrel with a 1:12 twist. The accuracy is actually pretty good. More than good enough for rabbit hunting at 75m.

The ammo mine likes the best is the Federal 36gr high velocity hollowpoint that Walmart sells in 550 round bulk packs for $9.

I use mine for hunting so the 10rnd mags are OK. I have an old Squires Bingham steel 30 round mag kit for my 10/22 with 2 mag well adapters and 3 - 30 steel round .22LR mags I've been debating on adapting for use in the Ceiner. I'd just Dremel out the 10 round mags out of their AR mag well adapters and solder them in. The Ceiners are the same mag as those used on the old Squires Bingham kits.

You'll find that if you use only copper plated bullets you'll avoid the leading problems that worry everyone.

I also made a woodland cammo and OD padded carrier for the Ceiner that attaches to military web gear, a pack, or your belt. It holds the Ceiner and one 10 tound mag and it holds the 5.56mm bolt carrier when the Ceiner is in the weapon. The pouch where the carrier/adapter is held is secured closed by both velcro and a 1" fastex buckle. GI compass pouches are almost perfect for holding a 10 round Ceiner mag.



_____________________________

A gunsmith friend of mine has the CZ upper and loves it.  I've handled it and it seems to be very high quality.  I'd like to see it come with a front sight however.

I'm considering getting one and putting one of the new "stubby" stocks on a lower and letting my 7 year old give it a try (with proper supervision of course!)

I like my CZ upper a lot.  It shoots great, fits well, easy to clean.  Though I'm thinking of getting rid of it for a 9mm.  

MG

Does anyone have experience with the Colt AR conversion kit?  Better than the Ciener?

WSAR15,
I have been beating the bushes for a .17 upper too.  The .17HMR would take some work but Kurt of KKF said the main drawback is the lack of hi-cap magazines.  He didn't say it couldn't be done.  It think he can do a .17rem centerfire.  As for the .17 Aguila, if they will feed through a Ciener kit it shouldnt be a problem provided one of the smiths is willing to buy the reamers etc.  Barrels are available for .17HMR and Rem but not sure about the Aguila.  I suppose the difference would be twist rate.  The other main hangup is getting ammo.  .17HMR is almost non existant at least in local stores where I live.  I wrote to the people at Aguila and the .17 Aguila is due out in August.  No word on how available it will be once it hits.  
I'm leaning toward the .22LR upper because of the availability of parts and ammo.

What about using the mags from the Ruger rifles for a .17HMR? They are 9 round mags and should be kinda fun.

Rocketman223:
I've found .17 Remington barrels, but the ammo is so darn expensive I've stayed away.
The 22 HMR would be very fun. All I know is AR-Fan was working on a 22 Mag with some success based around a Marlin Mag inside a 223 20rd mag. The mags were tricky and he had to put something together. I don't know if he ever finished, but I know he could shoot the rifle.
The .17 Aguila should, in theory, work through the Ciener, but until I can get some ammo...assuming it becomes available some day.