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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:37:22 AM EDT
[#1]
I would, sure. But Robinson made a similar gun a while back that flopped pretty bad. Mind you it wasn't a copy and had (almost) no interchangeable parts, but it was ambitious and neat:
Again, not an exact copy but it scratched the itch for a lot of folks. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:43:07 AM EDT
[#2]
Yes I own one of the RA M96s and they are not the same, but similar. I think that's one reason they flopped. It wasnt a TRUE copy.
The other is he had bigger ambitions than the 96 and his customer service was nearly non existent once they dropped them from production. And actually there are MANY parts that interchange. Im asking if a properly made one was executed, a true and faithful copy, would there be enough interest to make it worth a manufacturers time and investment? |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:51:36 AM EDT
[#3]
The biggest problem with niche reproductions is how much is involved in making one. Look at the HMG guns STG44 that still hasn't made its way to customers. The price point is only low because it isn't a great (meaning faithful) reproduction.
On the other hand, you have the SMG Guns FG42 that is a damn faithful repop of an awesome gun, but it will run you $5,000. Unless a big manufacturer gets involved the gun will either not be a faithful repop or it will be very costly. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:55:10 AM EDT
[#4]
Id rather save my pennies and pay for an all correct faithful copy than go cheap. Its only money and I'll make more. Spending a little to have something I have to make excuses for ain't my style.
Thats one reason I'm in the middle of taking my RA M96 back to as close as possible to the Stoner. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/712391_.html&page=1&anc=7476545#i7476545 It may be as close as I'll ever get. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 11:56:09 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes I own one of the RA M96s and they are not the same, but similar. I think that's one reason they flopped. It wasnt a TRUE copy. The other is he had bigger ambitions than the 96 and his customer service was nearly non existent once they dropped them from production. And actually there are MANY parts that interchange. Im asking if a properly made one was executed, a true and faithful copy, would there be enough interest to make it worth a manufacturers time and investment? |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 12:01:06 PM EDT
[#6]
$3k or a bit less sounds about right. That will hurt the "common man" from buying one I think, and consequently the market as well, but there will still be good sales considering it is a convertible system. Parts or kits will be in big demand for building the different versions as well.
I think the days of the M96s at less than about $1800 are over with. I think this also is a strong point for building a true 63 replica in semi. People are willing, begrudgingly, to pay $2k for the "just OK' RA M96 so I gotta believe they'd be willing to shell out a few more hundred for a true retro, no? |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 12:11:33 PM EDT
[#7]
I suspect the belt fed version(s), if made, will command much higher prices similar to FNs M249.
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Posted: 8/3/2017 12:11:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
$3k or a bit less sounds about right. That will hurt the "common man" from buying one I think, and consequently the market as well, but there will still be good sales considering it is a convertible system. Parts or kits will be in big demand for building the different versions as well. I think the days of the M96s at less than about $1800 are over with. I think this also is a strong point for building a true 63 replica in semi. People are willing, begrudgingly, to pay $2k for the "just OK' RA M96 so I gotta believe they'd be willing to shell out a few more hundred for a true retro, no? I think a 100% correct copy (well, as close to 100% as a SA could be) would sell very well at $3k...... add the Bren and belt conversion as an add on, and I think it would be quite the smart investment for a company who could produce the parts..... retros are not a gun for commoners (as SA belt feds are not)... it is a niche market, but lots of otherwise normal guys will drop ~3K on a scar or KAC rifle....... |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 12:22:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow, yeah, absolutely...... I cannot justify more than $1200 for an M96 with all that is "wrong" with it..... no wonder I never found one "reasonable" to me..... my price is in dreamland. I think a 100% correct copy (well, as close to 100% as a SA could be) would sell very well at $3k...... add the Bren and belt conversion as an add on, and I think it would be quite the smart investment for a company who could produce the parts..... retros are not a gun for commoners (as SA belt feds are not)... it is a niche market, but lots of otherwise normal guys will drop ~3K on a scar or KAC rifle....... |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 3:25:04 PM EDT
[#10]
It makes me sick that Robinson dropped them so quickly.... I had very high hopes for the platform.... I assume yours runs great? The only consistent problem I have heard of with the M96 is the lack of support
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Posted: 8/3/2017 3:40:29 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It makes me sick that Robinson dropped them so quickly.... I had very high hopes for the platform.... I assume yours runs great? The only consistent problem I have heard of with the M96 is the lack of support I'm working with some guys that are hoping make AR bbls fit to the RA 96s. Aint easy, cheap, nor soon though. Anyone have drawings of the M96s bbl extension? |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 4:05:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Honestly, the retro fad will probably never gain enough hype for a full faithful reproduction to be made. Probably most other guns too. That's why a lot o those really nice reproduction ww2 lmgs, and rifles are built to order. I would love for the retro thing to grow immensely larger, so my pile can go up in price, and hopefully more companies would start making repro parts.
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Posted: 8/3/2017 6:24:57 PM EDT
[#13]
I would definitely go for one or two if it's a faithful reproduction in semi-auto.
--fjruple |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 7:01:47 PM EDT
[#14]
I believe KAC still has the tooling for the 63/63A. I saw them mention once, maybe jokingly, that if someone wanted to design a semi-auto version, they'd make it. It might be worth trying to get in touch with them and seeing what's possible.
With something as iconic as the Stoner 63, I have a hard time believing you couldn't at least make your money back. If it's faithful enough, you could even get a bleed over with the guys running the NFA ones who might want some spare parts to keep their guns running. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 7:18:22 PM EDT
[#15]
Oh sure. Where were you a couple years ago with this? ;) Now that I've spent a bunch of money and used a bunch of favors (only two/three parts away from a complete gun). I would figure the Turkish firm of MKE. They could probably do a good price point. FN has priced me out of the market with their 249. The price for govt entities is around $5500, which is still more than I want to spend on a stamped sheet metal semi copy of an MG.... but would for a belt fed Stoner. I know a lot goes into the design and manufacture of these guns so, I don't expect them to be cheap.
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Posted: 8/3/2017 7:27:10 PM EDT
[#16]
Well I'd just love to have reasonably priced spares for my gun at least.
There may be a market just for the guys that bought all the airsoft ones and would like a real shooting one as they get older. The Stoner 63 series has gotten a lot more well known since the internet became common. When I first got my gun I had never seen one in real life and plopped down 12K for it without ever handling one. I have tried over the years to get more people acquainted with them and the number of people that have shot my gun is in hundreds now so there are some that are addicted but w/o the funds for the real thing. Hell I could never afford my gun if I had to buy it today. Even some of my accessories are so rare/expensive I rarely take them out of the safe to shoot on the gun, like the drum which I have been offered 8K and turned it down. I have wondered how close the airsoft stamped metal is and could it be used for a basis of working up a real gun. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 7:30:42 PM EDT
[#17]
I'm in. Closer to the original the better. This is my only real Grail Gun.
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Posted: 8/3/2017 7:42:02 PM EDT
[#18]
I would probably be in for one depending on price but what I would definitely be in for would be replacement parts for my M96!
Screw Robinson |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 7:51:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Indeed...!!!!!
I'd be willing to drop serious $$$ on a faithful clone. If it's not made by Robinson. 
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Posted: 8/3/2017 8:00:56 PM EDT
[#20]
I'd be interested in a faithful clone, as long as I could also buy (at reasonable prices) spare parts.
I like to shoot my rifles, and if something breaks I don't want to be left with a non-functional wall-hanger. To avoid the RA/M96 scenario, I'd want to stock the parts box with a few key pieces about the same time I buy the rifle--so I'll know I have them if I need them. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 8:15:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd be interested in a faithful clone, as long as I could also buy (at reasonable prices) spare parts. I like to shoot my rifles, and if something breaks I don't want to be left with a non-functional wall-hanger. To avoid the RA/M96 scenario, I'd want to stock the parts box with a few key pieces about the same time I buy the rifle--so I'll know I have them if I need them. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 8:23:30 PM EDT
[#22]
Well you are all talking the same language:
Build one true to the original design Understanding that it will be on the high end of what we'd pay, but we'd pay it if #1 is followed Parts parts parts Oh, and not Robinson Arms And yes I believe that KAC owns everything and anything that was left from Cadillac Gauge. At least thats my understanding. Im hoping we can attract some attention from topics like this and get someone to believe in us and will offer a worthy Stoner 63. |
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Posted: 8/3/2017 8:59:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Does anyone know if any KAC folks post here? they should be mentioned to see if it may be viable..... might at least get a foot in the door.......
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Posted: 8/3/2017 9:28:22 PM EDT
[#24]
There are actually some parts already being made. I know of some barrel extensions that were produced but do not know the quality of them or who did them. Barrels have been made and I have generated drawings for almost all barrel types. I used the parts from my smooth bore Commando barrel and had a new barrel assembled with them. I am also having a rifle barrel made from parts since it is the one configuration I do not currently own. I have also seen some one make some bolt carriers but once again I have no idea of the quality. The majority of the non stamped parts would not be too tough to make but the stamped items and the plastic parts will cost the most.
Reed Knight does indeed own the tooling and technical package from Cadillac Gage. He has not wanted to deal with a project unless it had military potential. His son Trey though has talked about wanting to do a possible semi project but that was 8 years ago when I was at their factory in Florida. Just think about this, the picture below is about 25-28K in parts for a Stoner these days. Producing lower cost reproductions would pay for some of the start up though repros would never sell for that price. 
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Posted: 8/4/2017 1:34:42 AM EDT
[#25]
I want a 16in belt fed verions!! Bad!!
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Posted: 8/4/2017 2:29:33 AM EDT
[#26]
I'd spend 3k on one in a heartbeat and feel like it was a deal.
Look how fast and well the m-249S sold for 5K+ It's a very close cousin build wise. Especially if it had a way to easily mount and use one of the better looking bump stocks for high RPM fun and zero NFA worries, then slap the oem stock back on for sexy retro styling. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 4:50:33 AM EDT
[#27]
If I understand the issue correctly - Robinson reengineered the rifle so as to not step on any rights held by KAC, and to satisfy the BATFE machinegun parts zealots. Having done that, he figgered the money would be in the belt-fed. Started getting the rifles out the door, got a few top feeds out, then someone else built and apparently patented the belt feed. Thus, no money to be gained, and a massive speculative loss for his company. It sucks for the early adopters, but I can understand him not continuing to produce parts @ a loss.
The best thing may be to buy out the belt feed folks, then make an offer to Robinson for his design. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 8:30:24 AM EDT
[#28]
I'm curious about this patent on the belt fed version. Wouldn't it just be a standard top cover? The only special parts needed would be a bolt carrier and fire control combo to make it work in semi. Unless it's gun specific, I just don't see how it could be patented, I can't see it not effecting other weapon systems and conversions, and I can't see how a work around couldn't have been designed.
I know patent and copyright can be pretty stupid at times though... 
Without seeing the patent, it seems fishy to me. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 9:24:48 AM EDT
[#29]
Great discussion going on here everyone. Just what I wanted to read.
SgtHatred is spot on, thanks man. And, as for Rob Arms, I'd like to see nothing come from them. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 10:46:48 AM EDT
[#30]
I have 3 semi belt feds and yes they are silly but they are still fun!
I can't justify the cost for the M249 though I have thought bout it. A true 63 clone with spare parts would really make me want another. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 11:17:34 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have 3 semi belt feds and yes they are silly but they are still fun! I can't justify the cost for the M249 though I have thought bout it. A true 63 clone with spare parts would really make me want another. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 5:12:32 PM EDT
[#32]
I spoke with Alex at the 2003(?) SHOT Show about it. He said they poured a lot of money into engineering and R&D alone on the M96. He said that the belt fed would not happen partially due to liability purposes (closed bolt would have cook offs and they couldn't make an open bolt, IIRC). He said nothing about patent issues. Additionally he said (and I believe more importantly), the XCR was taking all of their time and energy (looking for a military contract). I sold my M96 and haven't looked back...until I found a receiver blank. Now I'm buying parts for a build. I emailed Robinson a couple months back asking about parts and was ignored. At any rate, the way for a gun or any other commodity to plummet in value is for me to purchase it. I am just parts away from a complete build, so I'm certain fate will up and f**k me by someone producing an exact 63A copy for say $2500. Also, people big in the industry who have the ability to do this are aware of our plight and even sympathize, but it's a lot of effort and the return on investment needs to be worth it. With maybe 200 Stoners out there and not a lot of other people wanting to spend more than a couple grand, I don't see it......unless MKE and Knight's collaborate. Hint, hint.
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Posted: 8/4/2017 6:18:53 PM EDT
[#33]
I would definitely buy one as long as it was correct.
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Posted: 8/4/2017 7:20:37 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are your belt feds all Stoner semis or the Rob Arms versions? An RPD, M1919 and a Freedom Ordnance 9mm upper that will live part time on my M16 once Uncle Sam says I can have it. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 7:39:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I spoke with Alex at the 2003(?) SHOT Show about it. He said they poured a lot of money into engineering and R&D alone on the M96. He said that the belt fed would not happen partially due to liability purposes (closed bolt would have cook offs and they couldn't make an open bolt, IIRC). He said nothing about patent issues. Additionally he said (and I believe more importantly), the XCR was taking all of their time and energy (looking for a military contract). I sold my M96 and haven't looked back...until I found a receiver blank. Now I'm buying parts for a build. I emailed Robinson a couple months back asking about parts and was ignored. At any rate, the way for a gun or any other commodity to plummet in value is for me to purchase it. I am just parts away from a complete build, so I'm certain fate will up and f**k me by someone producing an exact 63A copy for say $2500. Also, people big in the industry who have the ability to do this are aware of our plight and even sympathize, but it's a lot of effort and the return on investment needs to be worth it. With maybe 200 Stoners out there and not a lot of other people wanting to spend more than a couple grand, I don't see it......unless MKE and Knight's collaborate. Hint, hint. There are TONS of closed bolt belt fed semi's that have no problem. Even a lot of full auto guns are closed bolt. That was their half-a** way of saying 'Yeah, we screwed the customers loyal to us and we have no intention of trying to rebuild that loyalty. Oh, and we also don't care about the civilian market.' |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 9:29:36 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was their half-a** way of saying 'Yeah, we screwed the customers loyal to us and we have no intention of trying to rebuild that loyalty. Oh, and we also don't care about the civilian market.' 
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Posted: 8/4/2017 9:36:29 PM EDT
[#37]
I'd totally be in for a repro stoner 63.
The newer belt feds don't really do it for me. RPD, MAG58, stoner 63, M60 I'm down for. |
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Posted: 8/4/2017 9:55:07 PM EDT
[#38]
I'd love one!
I'd think the good news for a repro of the Stoner vs the FG.42 is the 63 was designed with manufacturability in mind. |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 12:31:59 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Ye have not because ye ask not. 
I'd be very interested. It isn't worth doing if belt-fed won't be an option. Most buyers would want the belt-fed, especially at the price the base gun will command after doing all the R&D, die making, etc. Good thing about cloning the original is that most of that work was done already. I suspect you'd sell almost as many just by doing post-86 dealer samples. They will never sell as well as the FN SAW though, so base your projected sales figures on less than that. |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 2:50:47 AM EDT
[#40]
The problem with clones of something unique is companies always seem to make the same mistakes.
Rather then doing it right, 100% correct, etc, they cut corners to make it more "affordable" but end up selling less because it is half assed. Just like the HMG STG44; Plenty of people would be willing to buy a 100% repro for $3K.. A half assed, kind sorta looks like one for $2K? Not so much., |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 3:26:09 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem with clones of something unique is companies always seem to make the same mistakes. Rather then doing it right, 100% correct, etc, they cut corners to make it more "affordable" but end up selling less because it is half assed. Just like the HMG STG44; Plenty of people would be willing to buy a 100% repro for $3K.. A half assed, kind sorta looks like one for $2K? Not so much., I can't afford a $20-30k original STG44, and I've always wanted a PTR44 but the $7-10k cost says no too. When HMG came to say they were doing a $2k STG44, I got excited. Then I saw the way they cut corners for parts, using other modern gun parts to make it "cheaper". My interest went from 100% to 0%. A lot of other people lost interest as well after seeing it, and plus HMG STILL hasn't shipped a single rifle. |
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Posted: 8/5/2017 2:57:00 PM EDT
[#42]
It happens over and over in the gun industry but the manufacturers never learn. People want a gun that is no longer made and they make a poor altered copy of it and then wonder why the gun goes tits up. Any simpleton would realize that the people wanting a reproduction of a certain gun will be turned off by a non authentic style of reproduction and those not a fan of the original are not going to be some one to search out a reproduction. So basically as soon as you decide to make you own stylized reproduction you have lost part of your built in customer base. To name a few off the top of my head, Robinson M96, Armalite AR180B, and I would not be surprised if the new repro looking HMG STG fails as well. On the other extreme look how SMG made semi repro FG42 guns and they are doing well. Also all the FALs, Polish semi Pps 43 SMGs being brought it are doing well too. Some of you might not have be old enough to remember but it use to be hard to find a FAL in the US, now not so much.
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Posted: 8/5/2017 3:50:13 PM EDT
[#43]
Would I be interested? You Bet!
Suggestions. Sell the belt fed version first. That way people don't get nervous thinking they will get hung out to dry again. Make as many parts as possible interchange with the original. You could even start with parts before building guns. Chat with Chuck at gunlab.net about what it takes to tool up to build something from scratch. His VG1-5 project is taking way longer than he thought. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 2:12:26 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a bunch of BS for a reason. There are TONS of closed bolt belt fed semi's that have no problem. Even a lot of full auto guns are closed bolt. That was their half-a** way of saying 'Yeah, we screwed the customers loyal to us and we have no intention of trying to rebuild that loyalty. Oh, and we also don't care about the civilian market.' Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I spoke with Alex at the 2003(?) SHOT Show about it. He said they poured a lot of money into engineering and R&D alone on the M96. He said that the belt fed would not happen partially due to liability purposes (closed bolt would have cook offs and they couldn't make an open bolt, IIRC). He said nothing about patent issues. Additionally he said (and I believe more importantly), the XCR was taking all of their time and energy (looking for a military contract). I sold my M96 and haven't looked back...until I found a receiver blank. Now I'm buying parts for a build. I emailed Robinson a couple months back asking about parts and was ignored. At any rate, the way for a gun or any other commodity to plummet in value is for me to purchase it. I am just parts away from a complete build, so I'm certain fate will up and f**k me by someone producing an exact 63A copy for say $2500. Also, people big in the industry who have the ability to do this are aware of our plight and even sympathize, but it's a lot of effort and the return on investment needs to be worth it. With maybe 200 Stoners out there and not a lot of other people wanting to spend more than a couple grand, I don't see it......unless MKE and Knight's collaborate. Hint, hint. There are TONS of closed bolt belt fed semi's that have no problem. Even a lot of full auto guns are closed bolt. That was their half-a** way of saying 'Yeah, we screwed the customers loyal to us and we have no intention of trying to rebuild that loyalty. Oh, and we also don't care about the civilian market.' They will never see a dime from me. 3K for a true repro 63 would be awesome,thats a fair chunk of change for me but I would swing it. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 4:39:57 PM EDT
[#45]
There is a reason most guns go out of production:
1. They are too expensive to make i.e. not enough return on investment. 2. technology and manufacturing techniques bypass them. The Stoner 63 takes lots of stampings and skilled welding to assemble. The tooling to make stampings is exceedingly expensive if in small volumes (it takes thousands of units of amoritize the cost of the tooling), and the skills to weld properly is expensive these days. the death knell of the original Stoner 63 was simply no military adopted it- not enough volume to justify the cost. And as far as a for the civilian market: If you want an exact clone, the cost to manufacture and get every little detail right puts the price out of the range of all but those few dozen or hundred collectors who really, really want it. If you manufacture to incorporate more cost effective or modern design elements or manufacturing techniques to get the price point where a much larger audience can afford it to increase sales, you get a ton of people complaining "it isn't like the original" It is a catch 22 for a potential manufacturer- you either bring it in at a price point that is affordable for mass production and get complaints that it is not 100% authentic, or you make it 100% authentic and can never make enough money for it to be a profitable project. Also, if you are gearing up for a project around $1000 or less, figure only 1 in 3 people who commit to buying one will actually come through. Get up to around $2000 and that number drops to 1 in 10. Several people in the industry will confirm that- Pete Athens and PJ Steyr AUG, Harlan at NDS, etc have all made the same comment, and we have seen it too. You could always make a one off or a few "just for the love of it" but most of us with the resources to actually make a project like this happen have to stay in business and the investment of time, R&D, and money can't be spent on projects that eat up large amounts of resources with no financial recoupment at the end of the project, not to mention future warranty support, etc. The Robinson M96 was most definitely a "labor of love" project and the simple economics of it are why it went out of production- Alex at Robinson has commented as such on the past. And yeah, Reed Knight might have some or even all of the tooling, but it is the knowledge of using that tooling that makes guns, not just the tooling, and I don't think anyone is left alive who worked on the Stoner 63 project... Not trying to put a damper on this, but shed some light from the manufacturer's end on why things like this almost never come to fruition. Sven Manticore Arms |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 5:06:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Yes, Id be interested. However I know it will never happen.
It be great if someone came along and made faithful reproduction complete with the interchangeability of the original. Id spend more than I'm willing to admit on an accurate clone. I know if someone ever attempted to make a reproduction it will be another m96, STANAG using abomination. |
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Posted: 8/6/2017 9:47:41 PM EDT
[#47]
Project is getting closer to completion.
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Posted: 8/7/2017 12:15:52 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And yeah, Reed Knight might have some or even all of the tooling, but it is the knowledge of using that tooling that makes guns, not just the tooling, and I don't think anyone is left alive who worked on the Stoner 63 project... I'd wager they stopped because they hit a brick wall. It was the 80s. The SEALs finally gave up the platform so the military interest was gone, the MG ban was in effect, and retro parts were undesirable at best and thrown away as trash at worst. Combine that with trying to redesign the gun to appease the ever hostile ATF. It would have been foolish. It's a much different story today. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 12:41:10 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
KAC built their own Stoner 63 clones using said tooling. They know how to do it. I'd wager they stopped because they hit a brick wall. It was the 80s. The SEALs finally gave up the platform so the military interest was gone, the MG ban was in effect, and retro parts were undesirable at best and thrown away as trash at worst. Combine that with trying to redesign the gun to appease the ever hostile ATF. It would have been foolish. It's a much different story today. He wants the big contracts. |
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Posted: 8/7/2017 10:15:22 AM EDT
[#50]
Great comments being posted and I agree with almost everything said here.
Sven & 57, You are both spot on! Times have changed in the gun and specifically the Retro world. This is a much better time to consider doing this type of weapon. I agree with everyone on the fact it MUST BE an exact and faithful copy, no cut corners. Do it right or never mind. My interest would also drop from 100% to 0% if I found out they used the AR trigger, safety, flash hider etc to save $$$ and time. As for belt fed? Thats not what I'm as much interested in but I know thats part of the allure of the Stoner platform and a lot of shooter want this, so I'm all for it. And yes, it may never happen but without getting the pulse from the builders, collectors and shooters out there, one will never know whether or not it may be a good time to seriously consider such an adventure. |
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