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Posted: 12/28/2011 1:50:09 AM EDT
[#1]
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal.
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Posted: 12/31/2011 7:45:42 AM EDT
[#2]
Last I heard, and I am not sure how accurate this is, but the 4473 forms have a place that declares if the 'unit' (serial numbered part) being reported/registered is a pistol or a rifle. I only know this as a result of being asked by the FFL when buying lowers/receivers in the past during the paperwork phase of the purchase.
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Posted: 12/31/2011 7:50:29 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Wrong, it's a rifle from the get go because it has a stock. |
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Posted: 12/31/2011 10:04:24 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Wrong, it's a rifle from the get go because it has a stock. Wrong, it's a receiver not a rifle until it's barreled as a rifle. there's a thread around here on this subject. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/542600_.html&page=1 |
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Posted: 12/31/2011 12:19:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Wrong, it's a rifle from the get go because it has a stock. Wrong, it's a receiver not a rifle until it's barreled as a rifle. there's a thread around here on this subject. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/542600_.html&page=1 This is why I am asking this, it is sold with a stock but my FFL gets them in as OTHER on his forms and transfers them out as Other. It seems kinda like a bit of a grey area as to where this should be. |
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Posted: 12/31/2011 12:37:29 PM EDT
[#6]
They used to ship unassembled with all the stock parts in a bag. So no stock assembled and installed on the receiver when it comes to your FFL you should be fine, it is still a virgin receiver. I built a .22 pistol, and a 9mm pistol out of the two I bought.
Edit: Does he assemble them and install the stock before reselling? |
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Posted: 1/1/2012 12:37:05 PM EDT
[#7]
As far as i know they come to him already assembled. The way I see it, if it has not been completed as a rifle or pistol then it will be transferred as OTHER and can be made into rifle, pistol, AOW, or SBR. Just because a reciever has a stock dosent mean it will be a rifle and that it why it would be transferred as other.
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Posted: 1/3/2012 2:28:11 AM EDT
[#8]
I'll have to look on my plum crazy lower receipt to see what it said
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Posted: 1/4/2012 8:15:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. |
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Posted: 1/5/2012 12:01:50 AM EDT
[#10]
$49.95 stripped 7075-T6 lowers.. why buy a plastic one?
PSA |
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Posted: 1/5/2012 8:41:55 AM EDT
[#11]
Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL!
I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. wrong, the ATF has now said that you can go from pistol- rifle- back to pistol now going through the proper steps of disassembly and reassembly. Also, if the receiver has never had an upper installed and was registered as "other" on the 4473, it can be built as a pistol. This has been discussed and rediscussed over and over again. |
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Posted: 1/5/2012 9:12:11 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL!
I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. wrong, the ATF has now said that you can go from pistol- rifle- back to pistol now going through the proper steps of disassembly and reassembly. Also, if the receiver has never had an upper installed and was registered as "other" on the 4473, it can be built as a pistol. This has been discussed and rediscussed over and over again. Gee the ATF changed their (collective ?) minds on this, who wudda thought ?.... I wonder if they can ever change it back (again)? ..... I know; I am being rhetorical, but with that bunch it seems to have merit to think obtusely. |
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Posted: 1/8/2012 6:52:29 AM EDT
[#13]
Back to the topic of............has anyone built an AR Pistol with a Plum Crazy lower. I have one. On the plus side, it's lightweight and fits very tight with the upper. On the negative side, the plastic trigger assembly and hammer were junk. They were completely unusable, unfixable and had to be replaced with quality metal parts.
I've pretty much got the bugs worked out of this thing and am enjoying it. It's lightweight and this setup is only 20" long from tip to tip. http://www.rpmmotorsportstulsa.com/Gregs/ARPistol-1.jpg |
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Posted: 1/8/2012 7:17:28 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. EVERYTHING in your post is 100% wrong. Stop spreading mis-information. Read these, they will open your eyes to the truth. Then we fully expect you to return here and apologize for being so utterly and completely wrong. In fact your posts are so wrong I'm shocked as hell that the words are spelled right. If you going to be so wrong at least do it all the way. |
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Posted: 1/13/2012 1:40:22 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Wrong, it's a rifle from the get go because it has a stock. WRONG! It's not a rifle until it's completely assembled and barreled as a rifle. The BATFE has stated that a lower equipped with a stock may have the stock removed and replaced with a pistol buffer tube, PROVIDED THAT THE LOWER HAS NEVER HAD A BARRELED UPPER ATTACHED. A lower without an upper is just a lower. |
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Posted: 1/13/2012 7:32:54 AM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 1/13/2012 7:34:07 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Back to the topic of............has anyone built an AR Pistol with a Plum Crazy lower. I have one. On the plus side, it's lightweight and fits very tight with the upper. On the negative side, the plastic trigger assembly and hammer were junk. They were completely unusable, unfixable and had to be replaced with quality metal parts. I've pretty much got the bugs worked out of this thing and am enjoying it. It's lightweight and this setup is only 20" long from tip to tip. http://www.rpmmotorsportstulsa.com/Gregs/ARPistol-1.jpg Very nice - so where did you buy the upper? I have 2 PC lowers and will probably make one pistol as well. Thing looks fun! |
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Posted: 1/15/2012 6:45:19 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Back to the topic of............has anyone built an AR Pistol with a Plum Crazy lower. I have one. On the plus side, it's lightweight and fits very tight with the upper. On the negative side, the plastic trigger assembly and hammer were junk. They were completely unusable, unfixable and had to be replaced with quality metal parts. I've pretty much got the bugs worked out of this thing and am enjoying it. It's lightweight and this setup is only 20" long from tip to tip. http://www.rpmmotorsportstulsa.com/Gregs/ARPistol-1.jpg Very nice - so where did you buy the upper? I have 2 PC lowers and will probably make one pistol as well. Thing looks fun! I didn't build it but best I can tell, it's a Gunsmoke Enterprises(GSE) upper kit. Does anyone besides GSE machine the bolt carrier so the buffer spring actually goes up over it ? http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/2nd%20gen%20recoil%20kit.jpg |
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Posted: 1/29/2012 9:10:53 AM EDT
[#19]
How do I always miss these deals! |
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Posted: 3/11/2012 3:22:17 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. So you're fucking over your customers? Keep it classy... |
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Posted: 3/12/2012 4:18:34 PM EDT
[#21]
I have a plum crazy lower that is a pistol lower and didnt come with any buffer tube.
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Posted: 3/12/2012 11:00:49 PM EDT
[#22]
Ditto: Plum Crazy pistol from stripped lower "other." And, iNeXile556 is right.
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Posted: 3/14/2012 7:37:29 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 4/5/2012 2:34:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Thats ridiculous.Quoted: You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. I sell thousands of a similar product every month. They are receivers. Thats all. if it has a stock, or a pistol tube, or whatever on the back, it still is just a receiver. They can be made into pistols with no issues.
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Posted: 4/5/2012 6:08:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: Thats ridiculous.Quoted: You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. I sell thousands of a similar product every month. They are receivers. Thats all. if it has a stock, or a pistol tube, or whatever on the back, it still is just a receiver. They can be made into pistols with no issues. Your words are falling on deaf ears, that was his first and only post. I suspect a troll account. That or he really is that stupid. Naw, nobody can be that stupid and still remember to breathe, but then again he is no longer here..... |
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Posted: 4/5/2012 8:59:13 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thats ridiculous.Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. I sell thousands of a similar product every month. They are receivers. Thats all. if it has a stock, or a pistol tube, or whatever on the back, it still is just a receiver. They can be made into pistols with no issues.
Your words are falling on deaf ears, that was his first and only post. I suspect a troll account. That or he really is that stupid. Naw, nobody can be that stupid and still remember to breathe, but then again he is no longer here..... The first page of the BATFE scans tacky is helpful. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/525036_Request___Scans_of_any_letters_from_the_BATFE__that_pertain_to_AR_pistols.html The first letter, submitted by vermont2nd on 01/27/2011: 1) Individuals must use a receiver that has never been barreled as a rifle action to make an AR-15 pistol. 2) AR-15 lower receivers with attached buttstock that have never been made, assembled, or manufactured as rifles can be transferred as receivers only and be made into an AR-15 pistol by first removing the stock and replacing it with a pistol buffer tube. Letter from Big-Bore, submitted by DonFerrando on 2/16/2011: 1) Individual should obtain certification from the manufacturer of the receiver verifying that it has never been completed in a rifle configuration. 2) Individual should make sure their FFL dealer does not describe the receiver as a "rifle" on Form 4473. It's clear from the first ATF letter I cited that a lower receiver with a buttstock can still be configured into an AR-15 pistol after removing the buttstock. However, I have a secondary question: If the manufacturer logs the receiver as a "rifle," then the dealer simply can't put "other" on Form 4473 can he? That would seem to go against the ATF's position in both the letters I cited. I'm genuinely interested in this. If anybody can cite to the ATF's website, any ATF letters, or the USC or CFR for controlling authority I'd be interested in seeing it. |
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Posted: 4/5/2012 10:57:23 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Easily answered by the second letter in that thread which tell the FFL that he MUST list it as a frame or receiver(in the case of an AR) on the 4473. If the manufacture is wrong it doesn't mean the dealer has to continue the mistake, hence the letter to the dealers clarifying how they must be listed when sold. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thats ridiculous.Quoted: You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. I sell thousands of a similar product every month. They are receivers. Thats all. if it has a stock, or a pistol tube, or whatever on the back, it still is just a receiver. They can be made into pistols with no issues. Your words are falling on deaf ears, that was his first and only post. I suspect a troll account. That or he really is that stupid. Naw, nobody can be that stupid and still remember to breathe, but then again he is no longer here..... The first page of the BATFE scans tacky is helpful. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/525036_Request___Scans_of_any_letters_from_the_BATFE__that_pertain_to_AR_pistols.html The first letter, submitted by vermont2nd on 01/27/2011: 1) Individuals must use a receiver that has never been barreled as a rifle action to make an AR-15 pistol. 2) AR-15 lower receivers with attached buttstock that have never been made, assembled, or manufactured as rifles can be transferred as receivers only and be made into an AR-15 pistol by first removing the stock and replacing it with a pistol buffer tube. Letter from Big-Bore, submitted by DonFerrando on 2/16/2011: 1) Individual should obtain certification from the manufacturer of the receiver verifying that it has never been completed in a rifle configuration. 2) Individual should make sure their FFL dealer does not describe the receiver as a "rifle" on Form 4473. It's clear from the first ATF letter I cited that a lower receiver with a buttstock can still be configured into an AR-15 pistol after removing the buttstock. However, I have a secondary question: If the manufacturer logs the receiver as a "rifle," then the dealer simply can't put "other" on Form 4473 can he? That would seem to go against the ATF's position in both the letters I cited. I'm genuinely interested in this. If anybody can cite to the ATF's website, any ATF letters, or the USC or CFR for controlling authority I'd be interested in seeing it. |
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Posted: 4/6/2012 6:51:48 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thats ridiculous.Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. I sell thousands of a similar product every month. They are receivers. Thats all. if it has a stock, or a pistol tube, or whatever on the back, it still is just a receiver. They can be made into pistols with no issues.
Your words are falling on deaf ears, that was his first and only post. I suspect a troll account. That or he really is that stupid. Naw, nobody can be that stupid and still remember to breathe, but then again he is no longer here..... Nope I'm still here, I just gave up on the idea. I doing my build using a metal lower. I'm not trolling or stupid I had just left the thread to die. Oh and as for my post count, I actually don't troll on any post....I just don't comment on every post I view. I am literally on this site everyday this is my second account with this site. I had lost my log-in info after mobilizing so I just started fresh, so you if you could so kindly go f#*k yourself. |
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Posted: 4/6/2012 8:59:10 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thats ridiculous.Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. I sell thousands of a similar product every month. They are receivers. Thats all. if it has a stock, or a pistol tube, or whatever on the back, it still is just a receiver. They can be made into pistols with no issues.
Your words are falling on deaf ears, that was his first and only post. I suspect a troll account. That or he really is that stupid. Naw, nobody can be that stupid and still remember to breathe, but then again he is no longer here.... Nope I'm still here, I just gave up on the idea. I doing my build using a metal lower. I'm not trolling or stupid I had just left the thread to die. Oh and as for my post count, I actually don't troll on any post....I just don't comment on every post I view. I am literally on this site everyday this is my second account with this site. I had lost my log-in info after mobilizing so I just started fresh, so you if you could so kindly go f#*k yourself. Lol. 
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Posted: 4/6/2012 11:56:30 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: I think your confusing my post as directed to you. It is not it is directed to KustomKoter and his BS "expert" mis information spreading.Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Thats ridiculous.Quoted: You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. I sell thousands of a similar product every month. They are receivers. Thats all. if it has a stock, or a pistol tube, or whatever on the back, it still is just a receiver. They can be made into pistols with no issues. Your words are falling on deaf ears, that was his first and only post. I suspect a troll account. That or he really is that stupid. Naw, nobody can be that stupid and still remember to breathe, but then again he is no longer here..... Nope I'm still here, I just gave up on the idea. I doing my build using a metal lower. I'm not trolling or stupid I had just left the thread to die. Oh and as for my post count, I actually don't troll on any post....I just don't comment on every post I view. I am literally on this site everyday this is my second account with this site. I had lost my log-in info after mobilizing so I just started fresh, so you if you could so kindly go f#*k yourself. Reading is fundamental, comprehension even more so.  |
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Posted: 4/6/2012 12:51:44 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 4/6/2012 1:07:24 PM EDT
[#32]
I thought you were meaning their conversation was falling on my deaf ears. Sorry about that and I guess you can un-f*#k youself
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Posted: 4/6/2012 1:52:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted: I thought you were meaning their conversation was falling on my deaf ears. Sorry about that and I guess you can un-f*#k youself No worries.  |
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Posted: 4/6/2012 2:27:47 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Easily answered by the second letter in that thread which tell the FFL that he MUST list it as a frame or receiver(in the case of an AR) on the 4473. If the manufacture is wrong it doesn't mean the dealer has to continue the mistake, hence the letter to the dealers clarifying how they must be listed when sold.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thats ridiculous.Quoted:
You can remove the stock and use the PC lower for a pistol build as long as the receiver has never been built into a complete rifle it's perfectly legal. Sorry...while this sounds logical it's NOT LEGAL! I routinely stock the PlumCrazy lowers and spoke with the manufacturer just a couple of weeks ago on this very issue. Only the manufacturer can determine the "TYPE" for logging the firearm... In other words, a receiving dealer cannot simply log a lower as "OTHER" (despite never having been mated or sold). As soon as the stock is attached it instantly becomes a RIFLE in the eyes of the BATFE. PlumCrazy will however, by special order, send me lowers WITHOUT the stock and buffer tube in which they ,the manufacturer, log it in their books as a PISTOL! This is the ONLY LEGIT WAY to get a PlumCrazy in correct form that it FULLY traceable as to its pedigree by the ATF! Just remember, once it's a pistol...It's always a pistol without other paperwork such as changing it to an SBR. I sell thousands of a similar product every month. They are receivers. Thats all. if it has a stock, or a pistol tube, or whatever on the back, it still is just a receiver. They can be made into pistols with no issues.
Your words are falling on deaf ears, that was his first and only post. I suspect a troll account. That or he really is that stupid. Naw, nobody can be that stupid and still remember to breathe, but then again he is no longer here..... The first page of the BATFE scans tacky is helpful. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/525036_Request___Scans_of_any_letters_from_the_BATFE__that_pertain_to_AR_pistols.html The first letter, submitted by vermont2nd on 01/27/2011: 1) Individuals must use a receiver that has never been barreled as a rifle action to make an AR-15 pistol. 2) AR-15 lower receivers with attached buttstock that have never been made, assembled, or manufactured as rifles can be transferred as receivers only and be made into an AR-15 pistol by first removing the stock and replacing it with a pistol buffer tube. Letter from Big-Bore, submitted by DonFerrando on 2/16/2011: 1) Individual should obtain certification from the manufacturer of the receiver verifying that it has never been completed in a rifle configuration. 2) Individual should make sure their FFL dealer does not describe the receiver as a "rifle" on Form 4473. It's clear from the first ATF letter I cited that a lower receiver with a buttstock can still be configured into an AR-15 pistol after removing the buttstock. However, I have a secondary question: If the manufacturer logs the receiver as a "rifle," then the dealer simply can't put "other" on Form 4473 can he? That would seem to go against the ATF's position in both the letters I cited. I'm genuinely interested in this. If anybody can cite to the ATF's website, any ATF letters, or the USC or CFR for controlling authority I'd be interested in seeing it. Thanks for the reply, iNeXile556. With complete respect to you and your knowledge, which I don't doubt to be significant, I'm not entirely convinced your statement is true. I'm sorry, it's the ingrained legal skepticism. I could be completely wrong, in which case I'm going to table this and do some further research. When I confirm for myself that you're spot on, I'll be back to sing mea culpa on the issue! |
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Posted: 4/6/2012 4:16:47 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: No worries, only a fool would take the word of a stranger on a forum as gospel. I've been wrong before, I'll be wrong again I'm sure. My opinion is based on the letter I referenced:Quoted: Quoted: Easily answered by the second letter in that thread which tell the FFL that he MUST list it as a frame or receiver(in the case of an AR) on the 4473. If the manufacture is wrong it doesn't mean the dealer has to continue the mistake, hence the letter to the dealers clarifying how they must be listed when sold. The first page of the BATFE scans tacky is helpful. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/525036_Request___Scans_of_any_letters_from_the_BATFE__that_pertain_to_AR_pistols.html The first letter, submitted by vermont2nd on 01/27/2011: 1) Individuals must use a receiver that has never been barreled as a rifle action to make an AR-15 pistol. 2) AR-15 lower receivers with attached buttstock that have never been made, assembled, or manufactured as rifles can be transferred as receivers only and be made into an AR-15 pistol by first removing the stock and replacing it with a pistol buffer tube. Letter from Big-Bore, submitted by DonFerrando on 2/16/2011: 1) Individual should obtain certification from the manufacturer of the receiver verifying that it has never been completed in a rifle configuration. 2) Individual should make sure their FFL dealer does not describe the receiver as a "rifle" on Form 4473. It's clear from the first ATF letter I cited that a lower receiver with a buttstock can still be configured into an AR-15 pistol after removing the buttstock. However, I have a secondary question: If the manufacturer logs the receiver as a "rifle," then the dealer simply can't put "other" on Form 4473 can he? That would seem to go against the ATF's position in both the letters I cited. I'm genuinely interested in this. If anybody can cite to the ATF's website, any ATF letters, or the USC or CFR for controlling authority I'd be interested in seeing it. Thanks for the reply, iNeXile556. With complete respect to you and your knowledge, which I don't doubt to be significant, I'm not entirely convinced your statement is true. I'm sorry, it's the ingrained legal skepticism. I could be completely wrong, in which case I'm going to table this and do some further research. When I confirm for myself that you're spot on, I'll be back to sing mea culpa on the issue! "A dealer must record in his/her acquisition and disposal record and on ATF form 4473 the type of firearm as a "frame" or "Receiver" (as applicable). The dealer must also include in any record the make, model and serial number of the receiver." This is an open letter from the ATF, not a personal question answered, and sets the rule concerning how all FFLs must operate. The use of the word MUST is very decisive and has but one legal meaning. The same letter also clarifies the definition of what is and isn't considered a rifle (barreled as a rifle). Therefore a dealer receiving a firearm that does not meet the definition of a rifle or pistol MUST record it in his record as a receiver and must also record the sale as a receiver on the 4473. Where there may be a gray area is if the manufacturer assembles it as a complete rifle before removing the upper and transferring it to the dealer. At that point I don't know what the legalities would be. I also don't know why any manufacture would do this. It would only increase the manufacturing cost which would not add any benefit or value and would not be recouped in the sale. I also understand that if a manufacture records as a rifle a full 11% excise tax must also be paid, just not a good business decision all around. |
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Posted: 4/6/2012 5:12:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Personal attacks
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