User Panel
Posted: 8/2/2005 12:21:56 PM EDT
I'm been, off and on, thinking of building an AR pistol, something with a short barrel, possibly even a pistol caliber. Is there any issue with me owning a short barreled AR pistol while having, say seven or eight complete rifles in my house also? Is there any reason for concern legally? I mean what's to stop the rifles from reshuffling uppers and lowers while in the safe, like they always do.
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None what so ever. However, I would not advise having more than one upper for the pistol if you also have rifles around, especially rifles with no upper.
When I did my pistol I bought 4 lowers, built them all as pistols, documented, then rebuilt the three other ones into rifles. They are pistols non-the-less so this might be an option if you want to have more than one pistol upper but not more than one lower built up as pistol. Once you build the lower as a pistol and document the first build, then you can convert over to rifle and back to pistol as much as you want. This is allowed under the TC Contender case. Just make sure you never have the pistol upper on a lower that has a stock attached. Where you run into trouble is when the parts you have on hand "can ONLY" be built into an illegal weapon, like owning an AR pistol with entry length buffer tube AND the stock that would go on it but not owning any other AR rifles (which is what they are referring to in the letter I got from the ATFE). The only way that stock can be used is in the assembly of an illegal SBR. If you own other AR rifles then the stock can be used on them and the fact that you own a pistol it COULD be used on does not matter, so long as you don't put it on. |
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cool thanks, that was my main concern of doing a pistol build.
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Mongo, I had a court brief on a case where the individual was convicted for intent to assemble an illegal rifle, because he had a spare short upper. The outcome pretty much made one thing clear. As long a you don't have more short barrelled uppers than you do SBR registered lowers or pistol lowers, you are OK. This is of course assuming that you are not found to have a short upper mounted on non-sbr rifle receiver.
In the court case, the individual was convicted because he had a complete AR15, and also a spare short upper. His defense was he was planning to build a pistol, but had not acquired the pistol lower yet. He was convicted on intent to assmble a title II weapon, because he had all the parts, and no where for that short upper to legally reside. I hate "intent" convictions, it's like being convicted for "intent" to rape just because you have a penis and are in the same room with a female. But that's the DOJ for you. So if every short upper has a nice parking place, like a pistol receiver or SBR receiver, then you are OK. It's when you start having extra short uppers and title I rifle receivers in the same location that you risk an "intent" issue. I can see if I can dig up that court brief if it is important to you. BTW there have been lengthy discussions on this in the FA forums. ETA, sorry, didn''t read BigBore's post. I'm redundant |
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when you say "document" what do you actually do? |
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Keep all receipts for the purchase of the stripped lower and parts then take before and after pictures of the build. Have either the camera date the picture or include a newspaper in the photograph. It also does not hurt to get a copy of the 4473 where it states the lower was purchased as stripped or as being described as anything other than a "rifle" lower. Just make sure the description of the lower does not say "rifle." If you can get a letter from the maker stating the lower was never assembled into a rifle that is good, but not really needed. Ameetec will not send me a letter stating the 4 lowers I bought from him were sold new, stripped, and never assembled into a rifle so I have to rely on the sales receipt and 4473 to keep my butt covered. I asked my local ATFE agent about not being able to get the letter from the maker and she said it was no big deal, copies of the receipt and 4473 were good enough since they state the condition of the lower and it is a safe assumption that most lower makers/sellers do not sell "used" previously assembled lowers when they are selling them as new. She has never been wrong on anything before regarding AR pistol builds so I trust her completely.
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+1 A friend who built an AR pistol just asked for a copy of the 4473, which had "pistol" on it. |
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You can own as many SBR uppers as you want as long as you have a registered lower. Additionally, that is the beauty of the AR-15, versatility. How can you measure intent?
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In a perfect world, yes. The DOJ will measure "intent" anyway they see fit, unfortunately. |
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_DR, How did they even know he had the short upper? Just curious. I'm getting my pistol lower first just to be sure. No sense inviting trouble. |
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Not so. It can be marked rifle. It doesn't matter. As long as it's never been assembled as a rifle. |
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BS yourself.
Read the letter direct from the ATFE at the top of the Pistol page. BS it all you want, it won't be my butt that gets hauled off to the pokey. |
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From what I have read, the 4473 has to be checked as a Pistol
If it was me doing a AR pistol build I would ask the dealer for a copy of the 4473 just to have on hand just incase |
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If the form is marked as "rifle", then the lower is documented as being a rifle when you bought it. Only a lower that has never previously been used to build a rifle can be used to build a pistol. The paper trail is what they can use to get you in trouble, and the word "rifle" on the form is the easiest way to hang you (documented proof of it being a "rifle", before you "converted" it to a pistol).
Real world facts mean nothing to the feds. The paperwork is what matters. At work, I can show the feds a part that appears to have never been installed and is still coated in the factory preservative, but if there is no documentation, the feds can say it's scrap metal. But if I show them an obviously worn out part that looks like it has 20,000 flight hours on it, and it is tagged as a new part and has the correct documentation for a new part, then the feds will say it is a new part. The paperwork is all the feds know (and they prove that regularly). ETA: I keep a copy of the dealer receipt, with the serial number of the lower and stating it was sold to me as a stripped(new) pistol lower, inside the pistol grip. That way I have some form of documentation with the pistol at all times. |
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He was in trouble for something else and they searched his apartment. Probably the only way they would ever know. I see if I can dig up the brief. |
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OK, here is the brief in it's entirety. As I said, he was in trouble for other stuff, but the short upper added charges, so it's a legal precedent. The short upper was not on the rifle, which had a legal length upper on it at the time it was found. They still found that he was in violation of the NFA statutes by "having an unregistered SBR". I have the original electronic document from DOJ in PDF format if anybody wants it because I converted from PDF to text, and some of it came out garbled (the footnotes caused conversion issues), but you can get the idea. The red highlighted text is relevant to this discussion.
Granted, he was already a felon, and he did not have a registered SBR lower or AR15 pistol receiver, but this shows DOJ will convict for "intent" by just having the parts that can be assembled in an illegal manner, even if they can't prove you ever did so. _DR
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What utter fucking bullshit. What, they can read the guys mind?? I still can't fathom how the people of 1934 allowed the NFA to be passed. |
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I stand my ground.
Is it a good idea to have a pistol lower transferred as a pistol? Yes. It is legally required? NO. Yes, i read the letter. THe part we are concerned with here is "A rifle receiver that has never been barreled and/or stocked as a rifle may be utilized in the manufacture of a pistol." Then they say the part abotu making sure ti doesn't say rifle. THey are contradicting themselves. If it says rifle, and has never been assembled into a rifle, there's no reason you cannot build it into a pistol. Will they try to say it was transferred as a rifle and thusly illegal? possibly. But not liekly. Also, in the description field, all the FFL's i've ever dealt with state "AR-15 style RECEIVER". a receiver is neither a rifle nor a pistol. If your FFL states he's transferring an AR15 rifle, whe nhe's transferring a stripped receiver, I'd question the legality fo him doign that .Clearly his records are inaccurate. Bottom line is that transferring it as a pistol is'nt necessary. Advisable? sure.. why not. But legally necessary? NO. Read 4473. Line 26 is what they are talking about. If you write complete rifle in line 26, you are fucked. However, If line 26 properly notes that it's a receiver, you're ok. Line 16 is the type of transfer. This one could legally be either or. Suggest pistol, but not required. ATF 4473 IS NOT REGISTRATION OF A FIREARM. (in theroy....tinfoil hat on) |
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Yep. "Intent" convictions piss me off, whether or not the individual deserves it or not is not the point. |
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Here's a weird one for ya. A good friend and coworker bought a new Beretta Storm carbine last January. They put "pistol" on the 4473. He didn't say anything at the time, thinking it was because it is pistol caliber (9mm) and has the magazine in the pistol grip like a pistol. But it has a permanent stock, makes it a longarm AFAIK. Doesn't sound right does it. |
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I think what he was saying is that the lower its self can be marked "RIFLE", but as long as it was bought stripped and it was never assembled into a rifle then it will work as long as you have a copy of the 4473 that list it as a pistol or reciever. This happened to someone I know, and it was a Grizzly (LAR) lower and LAR emailed him a letter for his records. Keep in mind LAR only makes lowers, and uppers (parts), they don't sell a complete AR15. |
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Nope. Bottom line: Has it ever had a stock on it? No you say? Then tell me why you coudn't legally make it a pistol. The ATF may say "well, this nifty piece of paper says it's a rifle". If it never had a stock on it, it is legally neither a rifle nor a pistol. Is marking the receiver a good idea? overkill, but couldn't hurt. Is marking the 4473 as pistol a good idea? codunlt' hurt, but IMHO, not necesary Is marking the decription as "stripped receiver" a good idea? Yes. After all, it is neither a rifle nor a pistol. Bottom line, it's your ass. Remember, the ATF recommends against using an M16 carrier in an AR15. But it's perfectly legal. THey can advise against "rifle" being on the 4473 all they want. Fact of the matter is if it's never been assembled into a rifle, it can be legally assembled into a pistol. |
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DUDE was selling stolen firearms and they knew he had a machine gun. This guy was guilty of being bad that is why they charged him of all of this. They would have never cared about any of this had he not been SELLING stolen firearms and found it on a LEGITIMATE search warrent to find the stolen firearms. |
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To add to what Big-Bore said, on dating things. Once you have taken the pictures get them developed or printed out and send them through the mail addressed to yourself. This way you have date stamped on by the US post office. |
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A couple of years ago, a minister in the area was arrested for NFA violations. The BATF showed up with a full team prepared for either an armed standoff with a crisis negotiator or an assault with a SWAT team. The minister fouled up their plans, and their media coverage of the incident (the BATF apparently waited for the TV crews to show up, before serving the warrant), by quietly allowing them in to serve their warrant and search his home. The BATF had flown a "specially trained agent" in from D.C., to inspect the minister's gun collection and determine if any of them were NFA items. The agent determined that 15 guns in the minister's collection were "definitely" NFA items and that they were not registered. At the first hearing, the feds claimed they had 3 witnesses (who were never identified and never testified) that had given statements indicating the minister was mentally unstable and possibly suicidal, was a "Nazi-buff", had shot up the interior of a church bus (never proven, and the judge stated the feds had no evidence of this), and kept machineguns and explosives in his house (no explosives were ever found). Somehow, the 15 "definite" NFA firearms had been reduced to 8. The feds admitted that after further inspection and extensive lab testing, they were only able to get 8 of the minister's collection to fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger (nothing said about what they had to do to get more than one shot, or if the succesful test was actually a malfunction). The minister was released on bail, but ordered to undergo psychiatric treatment and was ordered to stay away from his church. Eventually, the minister agreed to a guilty plea, with the understanding that the judge would go easy on the sentencing. After another minister testified with details of the arrested minister's community service (before the arrest and while waiting for trial) and asked for probation, the judge gave a sentence of a year and a day. Last I heard, the feds were appealing, because the judge gave a sentence far less than he was expected to give. And now, the rest of the story... The three "anonymous" witnesses were supposedly identified (by individuals who knew the minister and other people from his church) as two members of the church staff, who had been up for a large raise (a raise that the minister had questioned in a church business meeting) and an individual who worked for one of them. From their statements, it could be suggested that the witnesses wanted the BATF to show up at the minister's house with an expectation of, and preparation for a firefight (which could easily have resulted in the minister's death). One of the two staff members was later arrested for beating the crap out of his wife, and was forced to resign from his church position. The only evidence ever offered, in court, to support the witnesses' statements, was the diminishing number of "definite" NFA firearms in the BATF lab, and drawings and tools that the BATF claimed showed an "intent to construct" more NFA items. |
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