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Posted: 9/2/2013 2:48:55 PM EDT
[#1]
not to rag on Wilson (they make great stuff), but given that the 7.62x40WT is extremely limited, I chose to go with the 300BLK.
WAY more support for the 300, hands down, and only a slight disadvantage with supers (compared to 7.62x40) |
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Posted: 9/2/2013 2:58:57 PM EDT
[#2]
I would be willing to convert some cases for you. if you wanted.
i ordered a custom dillon rt1200 trim die from ch4d -- took 8 months to get so making the brass is pretty easy for me. that would get you started then you just need a seater die and a 300blk seater die would work you just wouldn't screw it down all the way. i love my x40 and i will take my 150-200 fps more velocity over the blk any day. i average.75 moa 5 shot groups any time i shoot it. |
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Posted: 9/2/2013 3:12:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks Bigdawg, I appreciate the offer and will get back with you if I can't find some soon.
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Posted: 9/2/2013 3:35:06 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks Bigdawg, I appreciate the offer and will get back with you if I can't find some soon. He is THE MAN for .223/5.56mm based parent wildcats like the 6.5mm PCC, .300 BLK, and 7.62x40mm WT. He is Highly Trustworthy and will you a very fair price....also has a Professional Grade Shop for brass annealing and case tumbling/cleaning/trimming etc. and can offer custom/professional grade tumblers to order. |
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Posted: 9/3/2013 9:56:10 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would be willing to convert some cases for you. if you wanted. i ordered a custom dillon rt1200 trim die from ch4d -- took 8 months to get so making the brass is pretty easy for me. that would get you started then you just need a seater die and a 300blk seater die would work you just wouldn't screw it down all the way. i love my x40 and i will take my 150-200 fps more velocity over the blk any day. i average.75 moa 5 shot groups any time i shoot it. Agreed. I have both and only use the BLK for subsonics suppressed anymore. Once you have dies the brass isn't difficult to make. Not being able to get dies would be frustrating though. |
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Posted: 9/8/2013 8:18:56 PM EDT
[#6]
I also love my 40wt, used it last year for deer season and worked great. I was lucky though bought my dies before all the craziness. If all else fails I have a few hundred cases sized as well...your welcome to them. Anything to help support a fellow 40wt owner.
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Posted: 9/9/2013 7:05:56 AM EDT
[#7]
I have been thinking about. Pistol build in this round. But I can't go forward till I get some dies. Really don't want to get into another caliber but I think this would be a great hunting round for deer under 150 yards
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Posted: 9/9/2013 7:31:37 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been thinking about. Pistol build in this round. But I can't go forward till I get some dies. Really don't want to get into another caliber but I think this would be a great hunting round for deer under 150 yards Being a nearly straight wall case makes this round very efficient with fast powders and short barrels. Coupled with bullets that expand at very low velocities like those from Barnes discussed in this thread and i think you have a real winner. I have been considering an SBR for those reasons. |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 7:57:13 AM EDT
[#9]
We can use pistols during our alternative methods season now. Trying to decide between this and a 6x45. Don't know anything about pistol ar's, but reading all I can.
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Posted: 9/9/2013 8:04:39 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We can use pistols during our alternative methods season now. Trying to decide between this and a 6x45. Don't know anything about pistol ar's, but reading all I can. Was my thought to with the 6x45 but I haven't found any talk of anyone with one |
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Posted: 9/9/2013 12:08:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Was my thought to with the 6x45 but I haven't found any talk of anyone with one Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
We can use pistols during our alternative methods season now. Trying to decide between this and a 6x45. Don't know anything about pistol ar's, but reading all I can. Was my thought to with the 6x45 but I haven't found any talk of anyone with one The 6x45 should not, in theory, be as efficient as the 7.62x40 as the shoulder is more pronounced and the bore size to case volume is smaller. I'm not saying it couldn't work but the 7.62x40 should give you considerably more usable power in a short barrel. I don't have a 6x45 but I have a .25-223. I love my .25 but it also would be less efficient in a short barrel so it is the 7.62x40 I plan to build as a shorty. |
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Posted: 9/10/2013 10:58:59 AM EDT
[#12]
Let me say this first: I like Wilson Arms. I like the idea of the 7.62x40wt. I have a barreled upper that I put together in the safe....but, WA totally jammed those of us who bought barrels when they knew that they could not support this propriety cartridge with the one thing that will make it operational....the dies. They sold me a barrel knowing that their dies were already months behind and on back order. I bet that they will sell barrels now. I know that I should have inquire...but I didn't so now I have $600 in metal sitting in th safe that I can't use.
I ended up having a 7.62x39 together that I really like so the 7.62x40wt is a bit redundant now. Check on the die availability before getting excited about this caiber. When I called WA they said, basically - too bad. Bill in OR |
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Posted: 9/10/2013 12:29:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Let me say this first: I like Wilson Arms. I like the idea of the 7.62x40wt. I have a barreled upper that I put together in the safe....but, WA totally jammed those of us who bought barrels when they knew that they could not support this propriety cartridge with the one thing that will make it operational....the dies. They sold me a barrel knowing that their dies were already months behind and on back order. I bet that they will sell barrels now. I know that I should have inquire...but I didn't so now I have $600 in metal sitting in th safe that I can't use. I ended up having a 7.62x39 together that I really like so the 7.62x40wt is a bit redundant now. Check on the die availability before getting excited about this caiber. When I called WA they said, basically - too bad. Bill in OR While the 7.62 x 40 WT is a fine wildcat, I do find it odd how they can run out of die sets and still sell the barrels w/o the dies to go with them...you would think they would have their Inventory control computerized and set-up to meet demand for barrels and dies for the caliber. They do however make a fine product and their customer service is excellent. One could also in a pinch use .300 BLK dies as a substitute, but that would not be exactly Ideal though... The other option would be to get ready formed brass from ARF member BIGGDAWG, or have your .223 brass converted by him to X40mm WT... I am sure they will get back to normal very soon as the craziness with AR's/MSR's demand has started to level off a bit and suppliers are starting to catch-up to demand. Good Luck. |
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Posted: 9/10/2013 1:04:57 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While the 7.62 x 40 WT is a fine wildcat, I do find it odd how they can run out of die sets and still sell the barrels w/o the dies to go with them...you would think they would have their Inventory control computerized and set-up to meet demand for barrels and dies for the caliber. They do however make a fine product and their customer service is excellent. One could also in a pinch use .300 BLK dies as a substitute, but that would not be exactly Ideal though... The other option would be to get ready formed brass from ARF member BIGGDAWG, or have your .223 brass converted by him to X40mm WT... I am sure they will get back to normal very soon as the craziness with AR's/MSR's demand has started to level off a bit and suppliers are starting to catch-up to demand. Good Luck. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Let me say this first: I like Wilson Arms. I like the idea of the 7.62x40wt. I have a barreled upper that I put together in the safe....but, WA totally jammed those of us who bought barrels when they knew that they could not support this propriety cartridge with the one thing that will make it operational....the dies. They sold me a barrel knowing that their dies were already months behind and on back order. I bet that they will sell barrels now. I know that I should have inquire...but I didn't so now I have $600 in metal sitting in th safe that I can't use. I ended up having a 7.62x39 together that I really like so the 7.62x40wt is a bit redundant now. Check on the die availability before getting excited about this caiber. When I called WA they said, basically - too bad. Bill in OR While the 7.62 x 40 WT is a fine wildcat, I do find it odd how they can run out of die sets and still sell the barrels w/o the dies to go with them...you would think they would have their Inventory control computerized and set-up to meet demand for barrels and dies for the caliber. They do however make a fine product and their customer service is excellent. One could also in a pinch use .300 BLK dies as a substitute, but that would not be exactly Ideal though... The other option would be to get ready formed brass from ARF member BIGGDAWG, or have your .223 brass converted by him to X40mm WT... I am sure they will get back to normal very soon as the craziness with AR's/MSR's demand has started to level off a bit and suppliers are starting to catch-up to demand. Good Luck. I don't have a problem with Wilson selling barrels when dies are unavailable, but a note on the page where the barrels are sold would be nice for the first time buyer so they are fully informed before pulling the trigger on the purchase. I may be buying a short barrel in the future and already have a die set so I would like them to keep the product up. Having BIGGDAWG run a set of .223 cases is a nice option up front but I wouldn't want to send him everything after fire forming just to get resized, this cartridge really does require a die set to reach its potential. You mentioned the .300BLK dies and IIRC that is what Kurt did when he first developed the cartridge before he was able to get a set of dies made up. I believe he just used the 300 dies 0.200" off the shell holder. I agree it isn't ideal, but it may provide a stop gap. I'd get with him on the details on doing it safely as I haven't tried it. |
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Posted: 9/10/2013 1:23:52 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't have a problem with Wilson selling barrels when dies are unavailable, but a note on the page where the barrels are sold would be nice for the first time buyer so they are fully informed before pulling the trigger on the purchase. I may be buying a short barrel in the future and already have a die set so I would like them to keep the product up. Having BIGGDAWG run a set of .223 cases is a nice option up front but I wouldn't want to send him everything after fire forming just to get resized, this cartridge really does require a die set to reach its potential. You mentioned the .300BLK dies and IIRC that is what Kurt did when he first developed the cartridge before he was able to get a set of dies made up. I believe he just used the 300 dies 0.200" off the shell holder. I agree it isn't ideal, but it may provide a stop gap. I'd get with him on the details on doing it safely as I haven't tried it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let me say this first: I like Wilson Arms. I like the idea of the 7.62x40wt. I have a barreled upper that I put together in the safe....but, WA totally jammed those of us who bought barrels when they knew that they could not support this propriety cartridge with the one thing that will make it operational....the dies. They sold me a barrel knowing that their dies were already months behind and on back order. I bet that they will sell barrels now. I know that I should have inquire...but I didn't so now I have $600 in metal sitting in th safe that I can't use. I ended up having a 7.62x39 together that I really like so the 7.62x40wt is a bit redundant now. Check on the die availability before getting excited about this caiber. When I called WA they said, basically - too bad. Bill in OR While the 7.62 x 40 WT is a fine wildcat, I do find it odd how they can run out of die sets and still sell the barrels w/o the dies to go with them...you would think they would have their Inventory control computerized and set-up to meet demand for barrels and dies for the caliber. They do however make a fine product and their customer service is excellent. One could also in a pinch use .300 BLK dies as a substitute, but that would not be exactly Ideal though... The other option would be to get ready formed sized brass from ARF member BIGGDAWG, or have your .223 brass converted by him to X40mm WT... I am sure they will get back to normal very soon as the craziness with AR's/MSR's demand has started to level off a bit and suppliers are starting to catch-up to demand. Good Luck. I don't have a problem with Wilson selling barrels when dies are unavailable, but a note on the page where the barrels are sold would be nice for the first time buyer so they are fully informed before pulling the trigger on the purchase. I may be buying a short barrel in the future and already have a die set so I would like them to keep the product up. Having BIGGDAWG run a set of .223 cases is a nice option up front but I wouldn't want to send him everything after fire forming just to get resized, this cartridge really does require a die set to reach its potential. You mentioned the .300BLK dies and IIRC that is what Kurt did when he first developed the cartridge before he was able to get a set of dies made up. I believe he just used the 300 dies 0.200" off the shell holder. I agree it isn't ideal, but it may provide a stop gap. I'd get with him on the details on doing it safely as I haven't tried it. |
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Posted: 9/10/2013 1:49:33 PM EDT
[#16]
So what kind of velocities are handloaders getting with 7.62x40WT and 123-125gr bullets?
I was about to pull the trigger on a x40 barrel but went with blackout instead since it didn't require any mag modifications. With blackout I have been able to push resized 123gr Vmax to over 2400 fps safely by loading them long and using uncompressed charges of Lil Gun with CCI 450 primers. This leads to 1600 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle which is in the territory of 6.8 and x40 loads (from a 16" AR15). By loading bullets long in 300blk I believe you can safely duplicate 7.62x40 loads. I'm still interested in the 7.62x40 but not sure how much of an upgrade it would be since I've committed to 300blk in two builds already. |
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Posted: 9/10/2013 2:18:01 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what kind of velocities are handloaders getting with 7.62x40WT and 123-125gr bullets? I was about to pull the trigger on a x40 barrel but went with blackout instead since it didn't require any mag modifications. With blackout I have been able to push resized 123gr Vmax to over 2400 fps safely by loading them long and using uncompressed charges of Lil Gun with CCI 450 primers. This leads to 1600 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle which is in the territory of 6.8 and x40 loads (from a 16" AR15). By loading bullets long in 300blk I believe you can safely duplicate 7.62x40 loads. I'm still interested in the 7.62x40 but not sure how much of an upgrade it would be since I've committed to 300blk in two builds already. In my 300BLK's I have been trying the standard Barnes 110gr TTSX(#30871) loaded to 2.24" in my Lancer mags(modified the same as for 762x40wt) and they have been spectacularly accurate with 21 gr of H110 with only flattened primers. These same loads from my 13.5" Encore are making .6" groups at 150 yards with a bipod off my truck hood. These loads are close to the load data on Wilsons site for the 762x40WT with 21.5gr max for the 110TTSX. I have also tried 20gr of H110 behind the 130gr TTSX from the Encore with only the flattened primers. |
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Posted: 9/10/2013 5:11:02 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what kind of velocities are handloaders getting with 7.62x40WT and 123-125gr bullets? I was about to pull the trigger on a x40 barrel but went with blackout instead since it didn't require any mag modifications. With blackout I have been able to push resized 123gr Vmax to over 2400 fps safely by loading them long and using uncompressed charges of Lil Gun with CCI 450 primers. This leads to 1600 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle which is in the territory of 6.8 and x40 loads (from a 16" AR15). By loading bullets long in 300blk I believe you can safely duplicate 7.62x40 loads. I'm still interested in the 7.62x40 but not sure how much of an upgrade it would be since I've committed to 300blk in two builds already. With bullets long enough to load to mag length in a 300BLK you won't see a huge difference between the 300 and the 7.62x40. After all, the usable case capacity would be nearly identical. I believe some 125gr bullets like the 125gr TNT have bee successfully run at around 2500fps in the 7.62x40 but I have not done so myself. Longer bullets, like the 125gr NBT, I have only gotten to 2400-2450fps but that bullet encroaches more at mag length than some others will. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 7:56:19 AM EDT
[#19]
Altair that's what I was wondering also. Wish I could find some energy tables for each cal. I'm looking for a 100 yard deer stopper, maybe 150 at max. Most my shots will be under 75. And in the 40wt I would shoot 125gr bullets max. Probably the 110 tsx mainly. And a 11"-12" barrel.
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Posted: 9/11/2013 9:43:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Altair that's what I was wondering also. Wish I could find some energy tables for each cal. I'm looking for a 100 yard deer stopper, maybe 150 at max. Most my shots will be under 75. And in the 40wt I would shoot 125gr bullets max. Probably the 110 tsx mainly. And a 11"-12" barrel. Then you want a 300 blackout with the Barnes TacTX black tip. Out of a 9" barrel it still fully expands at 300 yards. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 9:53:06 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Altair that's what I was wondering also. Wish I could find some energy tables for each cal. I'm looking for a 100 yard deer stopper, maybe 150 at max. Most my shots will be under 75. And in the 40wt I would shoot 125gr bullets max. Probably the 110 tsx mainly. And a 11"-12" barrel. In a barrel that short I'd stick with the 110's as you may have a hard time getting enough velocity out of the 125's to keep them within their design parameters. The TTSX made for the 7.62x40 should be well within its expansion velocity range within 150 yards from a 12" barrel while a 125 may not be. At an estimated muzzle velocity of 2300fps the 110gr TSX should still be just above 1800fps and the energy would be at 821 ft-lbs at 150 yards, which is still at the lower end of where the standard TTSX will expand. The Barnes bullets designed for the 7.62x40 and/or 300BLK will expand down to 1500fps. Even if your MV is 2200fps, which I consider conservative from a 12" barrel, the bullet will still be at about 1600fps at 200 yards, which is 50 yards beyond your estimated max range. Impact velocity at 150 yards would be 1745fps and energy would be 743 ft-lbs The 125gr NBT, on the other hand, will probably only get 2100-2200fps from a 12". It only expands down to 1800fps according to Nosler which would put you right at the cusp at 150 yards with a velocity of 1774fps and energy of 874 ft-lbs if MV was only 2100. If you did get 2200fps it would be reasonable to use at 150 I would think but the 110gr Barnes TTSX designed for this round gives you a better margin for error IMO. Just food for thought. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 10:03:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Then you want a 300 blackout with the Barnes TacTX black tip. Out of a 9" barrel it still fully expands at 300 yards. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Altair that's what I was wondering also. Wish I could find some energy tables for each cal. I'm looking for a 100 yard deer stopper, maybe 150 at max. Most my shots will be under 75. And in the 40wt I would shoot 125gr bullets max. Probably the 110 tsx mainly. And a 11"-12" barrel. Then you want a 300 blackout with the Barnes TacTX black tip. Out of a 9" barrel it still fully expands at 300 yards. Where do you get the 300 yard claim? When I asked Barnes about their low velocity projectiles (110gr TAC-X SBR, 110gr Black Tip, and 110gr TTSX for the 7.62x40) I was told they expanded down to approximately 1500 fps. I get approximately 2100fps from my 10.5" 300BLK with 110gr bullets so that bullet would need a ballistic coefficient of around .39 to still be going 1500fps at 300 yards from my 10.5" gun. Either I'm missing something or that is an exaggerated claim as I don't believe that BC of that bullet to be anywhere near .39 ETA: Speaking of BC, I was using the BC of the 110gr TSX to calculate the velocity and energy in my above post for the 12" 7.62x40. The 110gr TTSX should have a slightly higher BC so my numbers will be a bit low. When I get a chance I will go back and redo the numbers. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 11:02:02 AM EDT
[#23]
http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf
My ballistics calculator has the 110gr TTSX black tip at 1440fps at 300 yards, which is only 60fps lower than what Barnes says. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 11:36:20 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://www.300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf My ballistics calculator has the 110gr TTSX black tip at 1440fps at 300 yards, which is only 60fps lower than what Barnes says. According to the PDF you linked the 110gr Barnes bullet is running 2116fps from a 9" barrel (page 28) and the BC is only .289 (page 19). Using those numbers I get a velocity of 1343fps at 300 yards using a ballistics calculator (70 degrees F at sea level). I would not be comfortable taking game at that distance with a 9" 300BLK. It should hit 1500fps at approximately 233 yards, which is still well within the parameters given by sigpros, so it should work fine for him. On the other hand if you add about 150fps for the 7.62x40, and adjust for Barnes' listed BC of .295 for the 110gr TTSX used for the WT and it will fall to 1500fps at 290 yards with the same 9" barrel. I really love my 300BLK but when it comes to supersonics I still like the extra 100-200fps I get from the 7.62x40 with 110gr bullets. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 1:56:09 PM EDT
[#25]
The Barnes blacktips are designed to expand all the way down to 820ish fps and still penetrate gell media for 18", this is on Barnes site somewhere as well as a few periodicals.
This is a direct copy and past for the blacktips from Barnes site, notice they mention full expansion out to 300 yards. Specially designed profile ensures flawless magazine-length loading in AR rifles. Full (50-caliber) expansion and 20-inch plus penetration at 300 yards (tested in short and standard length barrel rifles) provides terminal performance unmatched by the competition. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 2:11:21 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Barnes blacktips are designed to expand all the way down to 820ish fps and still penetrate gell media for 18", this is on Barnes site somewhere as well as a few periodicals. This is a direct copy and past for the blacktips from Barnes site, notice they mention full expansion out to 300 yards. Specially designed profile ensures flawless magazine-length loading in AR rifles. Full (50-caliber) expansion and 20-inch plus penetration at 300 yards (tested in short and standard length barrel rifles) provides terminal performance unmatched by the competition. If they expand down to 820fps then that certainly changes effective range. Either I was misinformed, misunderstood, or things have changed (it was quite some time ago). One thing to consider, however, is that with velocities much below 1500fps you will no longer have the advantage of high velocity rifle wound profiles and will, instead, have wounding comparable to pistol type ammunition. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 3:56:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If they expand down to 820fps then that certainly changes effective range. Either I was misinformed, misunderstood, or things have changed (it was quite some time ago). One thing to consider, however, is that with velocities much below 1500fps you will no longer have the advantage of high velocity rifle wound profiles and will, instead, have wounding comparable to pistol type ammunition. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Barnes blacktips are designed to expand all the way down to 820ish fps and still penetrate gell media for 18", this is on Barnes site somewhere as well as a few periodicals. This is a direct copy and past for the blacktips from Barnes site, notice they mention full expansion out to 300 yards. Specially designed profile ensures flawless magazine-length loading in AR rifles. Full (50-caliber) expansion and 20-inch plus penetration at 300 yards (tested in short and standard length barrel rifles) provides terminal performance unmatched by the competition. If they expand down to 820fps then that certainly changes effective range. Either I was misinformed, misunderstood, or things have changed (it was quite some time ago). One thing to consider, however, is that with velocities much below 1500fps you will no longer have the advantage of high velocity rifle wound profiles and will, instead, have wounding comparable to pistol type ammunition. I was told the same by Barnes Tech's, reliable/effective expansion of 1,500 fps. for the TSX.TTSX. I also agree with you about loss of terminal effectiveness below that threshold...All the more reason (IMHO) to go with the x40mm WT for supersonic work over the .300 BLK. From the ballistic gel testing I have seen of various TSX/TTSX calibers, the best penetration I have seen comes from the: 6.5mm/.264 Calibers, 7.62mm/.30 Calibers and the 6.8mm/.277 Caliber (slightly less though), followed by the 5.56mm/.223 (all in soft tissue simulation). |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 4:22:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If they expand down to 820fps then that certainly changes effective range. Either I was misinformed, misunderstood, or things have changed (it was quite some time ago). One thing to consider, however, is that with velocities much below 1500fps you will no longer have the advantage of high velocity rifle wound profiles and will, instead, have wounding comparable to pistol type ammunition. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Barnes blacktips are designed to expand all the way down to 820ish fps and still penetrate gell media for 18", this is on Barnes site somewhere as well as a few periodicals. This is a direct copy and past for the blacktips from Barnes site, notice they mention full expansion out to 300 yards. Specially designed profile ensures flawless magazine-length loading in AR rifles. Full (50-caliber) expansion and 20-inch plus penetration at 300 yards (tested in short and standard length barrel rifles) provides terminal performance unmatched by the competition. If they expand down to 820fps then that certainly changes effective range. Either I was misinformed, misunderstood, or things have changed (it was quite some time ago). One thing to consider, however, is that with velocities much below 1500fps you will no longer have the advantage of high velocity rifle wound profiles and will, instead, have wounding comparable to pistol type ammunition. The wound channel out to 250 yards is very impressive, the hyper cavitation caused by that little propeller spinning it's way thru a deers chest shreds most everything in the chest cavity. that's the beauty of these rounds. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 4:27:03 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was told the same by Barnes Tech's, reliable/effective expansion of 1,500 fps. for the TSX.TTSX. I also agree with you about loss of terminal effectiveness below that threshold...All the more reason (IMHO) to go with the x40mm WT for supersonic work over the .300 BLK. From the ballistic gel testing I have seen of various TSX/TTSX calibers, the best penetration I have seen comes from the: 6.5mm/.264 Calibers, 7.62mm/.30 Calibers and the 6.8mm/.277 Caliber (slightly less though), followed by the 5.56mm/.223 (all in soft tissue simulation). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The Barnes blacktips are designed to expand all the way down to 820ish fps and still penetrate gell media for 18", this is on Barnes site somewhere as well as a few periodicals. This is a direct copy and past for the blacktips from Barnes site, notice they mention full expansion out to 300 yards. Specially designed profile ensures flawless magazine-length loading in AR rifles. Full (50-caliber) expansion and 20-inch plus penetration at 300 yards (tested in short and standard length barrel rifles) provides terminal performance unmatched by the competition. If they expand down to 820fps then that certainly changes effective range. Either I was misinformed, misunderstood, or things have changed (it was quite some time ago). One thing to consider, however, is that with velocities much below 1500fps you will no longer have the advantage of high velocity rifle wound profiles and will, instead, have wounding comparable to pistol type ammunition. I was told the same by Barnes Tech's, reliable/effective expansion of 1,500 fps. for the TSX.TTSX. I also agree with you about loss of terminal effectiveness below that threshold...All the more reason (IMHO) to go with the x40mm WT for supersonic work over the .300 BLK. From the ballistic gel testing I have seen of various TSX/TTSX calibers, the best penetration I have seen comes from the: 6.5mm/.264 Calibers, 7.62mm/.30 Calibers and the 6.8mm/.277 Caliber (slightly less though), followed by the 5.56mm/.223 (all in soft tissue simulation). The blacktips are not TTSX/TSX design, they are their own design/designation, the 300blk TAC-TX, there is also a 110 TAC SBR that functions in the same range but has the TTSX profile instead of the long pointy TAC-TX, perfect for the 762x40wt |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 5:08:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was told the same by Barnes Tech's, reliable/effective expansion of 1,500 fps. for the TSX.TTSX. I also agree with you about loss of terminal effectiveness below that threshold...All the more reason (IMHO) to go with the x40mm WT for supersonic work over the .300 BLK. From the ballistic gel testing I have seen of various TSX/TTSX calibers, the best penetration I have seen comes from the: 6.5mm/.264 Calibers, 7.62mm/.30 Calibers and the 6.8mm/.277 Caliber (slightly less though), followed by the 5.56mm/.223 (all in soft tissue simulation). Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Barnes blacktips are designed to expand all the way down to 820ish fps and still penetrate gell media for 18", this is on Barnes site somewhere as well as a few periodicals. This is a direct copy and past for the blacktips from Barnes site, notice they mention full expansion out to 300 yards. Specially designed profile ensures flawless magazine-length loading in AR rifles. Full (50-caliber) expansion and 20-inch plus penetration at 300 yards (tested in short and standard length barrel rifles) provides terminal performance unmatched by the competition. If they expand down to 820fps then that certainly changes effective range. Either I was misinformed, misunderstood, or things have changed (it was quite some time ago). One thing to consider, however, is that with velocities much below 1500fps you will no longer have the advantage of high velocity rifle wound profiles and will, instead, have wounding comparable to pistol type ammunition. I was told the same by Barnes Tech's, reliable/effective expansion of 1,500 fps. for the TSX.TTSX. I also agree with you about loss of terminal effectiveness below that threshold...All the more reason (IMHO) to go with the x40mm WT for supersonic work over the .300 BLK. From the ballistic gel testing I have seen of various TSX/TTSX calibers, the best penetration I have seen comes from the: 6.5mm/.264 Calibers, 7.62mm/.30 Calibers and the 6.8mm/.277 Caliber (slightly less though), followed by the 5.56mm/.223 (all in soft tissue simulation). The blacktip bullet is not a standard TTSX, it has a specifically constructed profile, and is designed to expand at much lower velocities than the standard TTSX. Based on my ballistics calculator and Wilson combats listed velocity of 2400fps with a 110gr TTSX for 7.62x40 and a listed velocity of 2350fps for the Barnes black tip 300blk at 300 yards the 7.62x40 will be at 1615fps and the 300blk at 1563 a difference of 52fps. Now I like Wilson combat products, one of my 300blk barrels is Wilson combat, I liked it so much I considered building a nice upper in 7.62x40 WT, but what Stopped me in the end was is that I have all the lee dies for 300 blk, I've converted over 500 or so .223 and 5.56 cases. The amount of support, factory ammo (I still have a bunch, even a local store that sells loaded Hornady 110gr vmax ammo) to me outweighed the 100-200fps difference. |
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Posted: 9/11/2013 6:09:03 PM EDT
[#31]
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Now I like Wilson combat products, one of my 300blk barrels is Wilson combat, I liked it so much I considered building a nice upper in 7.62x40 WT, but what Stopped me in the end was is that I have all the lee dies for 300 blk, I've converted over 500 or so .223 and 5.56 cases. The amount of support, factory ammo (I still have a bunch, even a local store that sells loaded Hornady 110gr vmax ammo) to me outweighed the 100-200fps difference. That is a very valid point. It seems dies are currently unobtanium for the 7.62x40 and it doesn't have the large corporate backing that the 300BLK has and most likely never will. I have both and I'm not suggesting the 300BLK doesn't have its merits. I just use them for different things. The versatility of going from a solid performing supersonic round to a subsonic suppressed round with nothing more than a mag change is very handy. |
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Posted: 9/12/2013 11:54:06 AM EDT
[#32]
I am also in the boat of having everything for my 7.62x40wt build except the dies...including all the 110 grain ttsx and 125 gr Sierras I will need for a good while. It's frustrating to say the least, but I was told I should get my order filled in the next batch supposedly rolling through in October (ordered back in June). In the mean time I was able to get my hands on some of the loaded Speer TNT from Wilson Combat. Has anyone else shot these? Almost everyone of them I shot flattened or cratered the primers! Not to mention, I am also having some short stroking issues. I've heard that over pressured rounds can cause short stroking, but I won't know if that's the problem until I get to load some of my own to compare. I contacted WC about the issue, but they weren't much help. I'm getting really anxious to get this thing going and popping hogs!
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Posted: 9/12/2013 12:31:10 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am also in the boat of having everything for my 7.62x40wt build except the dies...including all the 110 grain ttsx and 125 gr Sierras I will need for a good while. It's frustrating to say the least, but I was told I should get my order filled in the next batch supposedly rolling through in October (ordered back in June). In the mean time I was able to get my hands on some of the loaded Speer TNT from Wilson Combat. Has anyone else shot these? Almost everyone of them I shot flattened or cratered the primers! Not to mention, I am also having some short stroking issues. I've heard that over pressured rounds can cause short stroking, but I won't know if that's the problem until I get to load some of my own to compare. I contacted WC about the issue, but they weren't much help. I'm getting really anxious to get this thing going and popping hogs! what barrel length/ gas port position do you have? |
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Posted: 9/12/2013 12:48:06 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
what barrel length/ gas port position do you have? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I am also in the boat of having everything for my 7.62x40wt build except the dies...including all the 110 grain ttsx and 125 gr Sierras I will need for a good while. It's frustrating to say the least, but I was told I should get my order filled in the next batch supposedly rolling through in October (ordered back in June). In the mean time I was able to get my hands on some of the loaded Speer TNT from Wilson Combat. Has anyone else shot these? Almost everyone of them I shot flattened or cratered the primers! Not to mention, I am also having some short stroking issues. I've heard that over pressured rounds can cause short stroking, but I won't know if that's the problem until I get to load some of my own to compare. I contacted WC about the issue, but they weren't much help. I'm getting really anxious to get this thing going and popping hogs! what barrel length/ gas port position do you have? 16 inch Carbine legnth. I put a BCM auto bolt in it and it short strokes every round. Tried my brother's dpms bolt and it cycled a few, but a round literally stuck in the chamber and I had to knock it out with a dow rod... The BCM bolt worked flawlessly in another AR-15. Also noticed that some of the brass WC used to load these rounds were longer than others by a few thousandths... At this point I've boiled the short stroking down to either the gas block or the ammo, leaning towards the ammo. |
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Posted: 9/12/2013 1:27:39 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
16 inch Carbine legnth. I put a BCM auto bolt in it and it short strokes every round. Tried my brother's dpms bolt and it cycled a few, but a round literally stuck in the chamber and I had to knock it out with a dow rod... The BCM bolt worked flawlessly in another AR-15. Also noticed that some of the brass WC used to load these rounds were longer than others by a few thousandths... At this point I've boiled the short stroking down to either the gas block or the ammo, leaning towards the ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
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I am also in the boat of having everything for my 7.62x40wt build except the dies...including all the 110 grain ttsx and 125 gr Sierras I will need for a good while. It's frustrating to say the least, but I was told I should get my order filled in the next batch supposedly rolling through in October (ordered back in June). In the mean time I was able to get my hands on some of the loaded Speer TNT from Wilson Combat. Has anyone else shot these? Almost everyone of them I shot flattened or cratered the primers! Not to mention, I am also having some short stroking issues. I've heard that over pressured rounds can cause short stroking, but I won't know if that's the problem until I get to load some of my own to compare. I contacted WC about the issue, but they weren't much help. I'm getting really anxious to get this thing going and popping hogs! what barrel length/ gas port position do you have? 16 inch Carbine legnth. I put a BCM auto bolt in it and it short strokes every round. Tried my brother's dpms bolt and it cycled a few, but a round literally stuck in the chamber and I had to knock it out with a dow rod... The BCM bolt worked flawlessly in another AR-15. Also noticed that some of the brass WC used to load these rounds were longer than others by a few thousandths... At this point I've boiled the short stroking down to either the gas block or the ammo, leaning towards the ammo. I would check your chamber first, make sure it's not rough or damaged, Wilson makes great products, but it's possible it could have slipped by. |
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Posted: 9/12/2013 2:52:28 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
16 inch Carbine legnth. I put a BCM auto bolt in it and it short strokes every round. Tried my brother's dpms bolt and it cycled a few, but a round literally stuck in the chamber and I had to knock it out with a dow rod... The BCM bolt worked flawlessly in another AR-15. Also noticed that some of the brass WC used to load these rounds were longer than others by a few thousandths... At this point I've boiled the short stroking down to either the gas block or the ammo, leaning towards the ammo. I would double check the gas block, the carbine gas is the one you want with the 16 also for kicks weigh the different bcg and see if it is the heavier or lighter one that works better. |
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Posted: 9/13/2013 9:52:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would double check the gas block, the carbine gas is the one you want with the 16 also for kicks weigh the different bcg and see if it is the heavier or lighter one that works better. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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16 inch Carbine legnth. I put a BCM auto bolt in it and it short strokes every round. Tried my brother's dpms bolt and it cycled a few, but a round literally stuck in the chamber and I had to knock it out with a dow rod... The BCM bolt worked flawlessly in another AR-15. Also noticed that some of the brass WC used to load these rounds were longer than others by a few thousandths... At this point I've boiled the short stroking down to either the gas block or the ammo, leaning towards the ammo. I would double check the gas block, the carbine gas is the one you want with the 16 also for kicks weigh the different bcg and see if it is the heavier or lighter one that works better. The lighter one worked better, but it was the one that failed to pull the case out of the chamber. I hate to tear the thing down to play with the gas block until I rule the ammo out. |
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Posted: 9/13/2013 1:00:33 PM EDT
[#38]
I'm really interested in this round, but I can't seem to find a barrel or dies. Wilson has a few barrels in stock, but not the one I want. Still no dies, either.
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Posted: 9/14/2013 12:58:38 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm really interested in this round, but I can't seem to find a barrel or dies. Wilson has a few barrels in stock, but not the one I want. Still no dies, either. Rainier Arms had some barrels in stock not too long ago. The dies seem to take a while though. |
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Posted: 9/14/2013 9:50:51 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Rainier Arms had some barrels in stock not too long ago. The dies seem to take a while though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm really interested in this round, but I can't seem to find a barrel or dies. Wilson has a few barrels in stock, but not the one I want. Still no dies, either. Rainier Arms had some barrels in stock not too long ago. The dies seem to take a while though. Currently out of stock. Thanks for the heads up though. I may email Wilson Combat to see what the ETA is on their barrels. |
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Posted: 9/14/2013 11:50:06 PM EDT
[#41]
I may just buy a set on 300 dies so that I can get my gun to the range. I'm afraid that without the 7.62x40 dies I may not get a complete full length resizing of the brass. Any one here done this? If so what (if any) were there any issues?
Bill |
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Posted: 9/15/2013 8:31:23 AM EDT
[#42]
The case body has completely different taper so would be over working your brass on a reload. Basically you would be taking an improved cartridge and swagging it back down to standard and then blowing it back out again on the next firing....extreme work hardening the brass and probably have case splits on the first or second reload. You could, however, use BLK dies to set the shoulder in the proper place for fire forming your brass (from .223) and get some pretty good performing loads. Then just keep saving that brass until you get the real dies to reload.....or try just neck sizing with 30 Herrett dies ,after brass is fire formed and it, (may or may not work in an autoloader). YMMV
advntrjnky Quote HistoryQuoted:
I may just buy a set on 300 dies so that I can get my gun to the range. I'm afraid that without the 7.62x40 dies I may not get a complete full length resizing of the brass. Any one here done this? If so what (if any) were there any issues? Bill |
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Posted: 9/15/2013 10:43:19 AM EDT
[#43]
Ah...30 Herrett...I have one of those. I'm on vacation now but as soon as I get home I'll be giving that a try.
Thx. Bill in OR |
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Posted: 9/15/2013 11:16:49 AM EDT
[#44]
I'm not sure how well the 30 Herrett die would work for forming new cases from .223 because it offers no support to the case body and might just buckle the case or make crooked brass....I was thinking that the 30 Herrett dies might work for neck sizing already fire formed 7.62x40 WT brass. The 300 BLK die would be used for the initial forming of the .223 brass to 7.62x40 WT to fit your chamber so you could fire form the brass and have some fun shooting the rifle.
advntrjnky Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah...30 Herrett...I have one of those. I'm on vacation now but as soon as I get home I'll be giving that a try. Thx. Bill in OR |
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Posted: 9/16/2013 7:09:08 AM EDT
[#45]
Got ya. I have dies to work up the case (6tcu,6.5tcu and 7mm tcu) so can gently increase the mouth without loosing too many cases. Once fire formed the 30 Herrett should at least get me in the game. Even if I loose a few cases along the way I'll be able to get the gun to the range and do some load development. Hunting season is just around the corner.....I'd love to take this to the field.
Bill in OR |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 7:35:13 PM EDT
[#46]
Wilson Combat has some 125 gr Nosler ballistic tip in stock as of 10:30 pm central tonight.
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Wilson-Combat-Custom-Ammunition/products/414/ |
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Posted: 9/17/2013 8:48:26 PM EDT
[#47]
I live a few blocks from Nosler and their Pro-Shop. I've purchased just over 1000 of the 125's. I've used them in the 30Herrett ( similar to the 7.62x40) on deer and antelope. As soon as l get home from vacation I'll drop in and let you know what they have in stock. I've only used the factory seconds an the dozen or so animals I've killed with them never knew the difference. I'll report back to you with availability.
Bill in Or |
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Posted: 10/22/2013 7:15:55 AM EDT
[#48]
Finally got my dies and was able to load about 150 Sierra 125gr Gamekings and 50 Barnes 110gr TTSX. Both rounds shot sub-MOA at 100yrds with the 16 in. ss fluted carbine barrel. The brass was easy to resize and I have had no split necks as of yet. I'm still having short stroking issues with the auto bcg, but it seem to cycle better with a lighter semi-auto bcg. I'm a little concerned that the reason it is short stroking is partly because of the RRA 2-stage trigger group and the hammer drag... Any one else have experience with the RRA trigger groups?
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Posted: 10/22/2013 8:02:33 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Finally got my dies and was able to load about 150 Sierra 125gr Gamekings and 50 Barnes 110gr TTSX. Both rounds shot sub-MOA at 100yrds with the 16 in. ss fluted carbine barrel. The brass was easy to resize and I have had no split necks as of yet. I'm still having short stroking issues with the auto bcg, but it seem to cycle better with a lighter semi-auto bcg. I'm a little concerned that the reason it is short stroking is partly because of the RRA 2-stage trigger group and the hammer drag... Any one else have experience with the RRA trigger groups? I have one on a 5.56 rifle, but I've never tried it on my 7.62x40. I'd be very surprised if that was your issue. |
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Posted: 10/28/2013 5:55:55 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have one on a 5.56 rifle, but I've never tried it on my 7.62x40. I'd be very surprised if that was your issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Finally got my dies and was able to load about 150 Sierra 125gr Gamekings and 50 Barnes 110gr TTSX. Both rounds shot sub-MOA at 100yrds with the 16 in. ss fluted carbine barrel. The brass was easy to resize and I have had no split necks as of yet. I'm still having short stroking issues with the auto bcg, but it seem to cycle better with a lighter semi-auto bcg. I'm a little concerned that the reason it is short stroking is partly because of the RRA 2-stage trigger group and the hammer drag... Any one else have experience with the RRA trigger groups? I have one on a 5.56 rifle, but I've never tried it on my 7.62x40. I'd be very surprised if that was your issue. That was my thinking too, just trying to rule everything out. I ended up expanding the gas port slightly and it fixed the problem. Was running a little stiff after opening up the port, so I switched out the original buffer with a Spikes Tactical heavy buffer and it is now the smoothest running rifle I have ever owned :) |
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