User Panel
Posted: 9/29/2010 8:11:32 PM EDT
From The Military Times site
Link to page Calibers come and go, but not usually from companies that are tied into military contracts. With the M4 replacement testing coming up in the near future, we weren’t surprised when we got a call from AAC/ Remington telling us about a new project. What we didn’t see coming was that sneak peaks would be done at Modern Day Marine. Luckily, we were on hand as Marines in the know petted and panted over the pumped up SBR. As interesting as a new caliber is to some of us, it gets better. Start thinking about a M4 with a 9″ barrel that has 37% more energy than 5.56mm M855 from a 16″ barrel (the standard M4 is a 14.5″). Clearing buildings, crawl spaces, vehicle work, going up ladders and seizing ships or aircraft are all tasks that have us wanting a short barrel, but getting shot at has us wanting a round that ends threats quickly. It looks like the new 300 AAC Blackout from Remington/ AAC ammunition and upper receiver is at the right place at the right time. We spoke with Robert Silvers who is the Research and Development Director for Advanced Armament Corp. Mr. Silvers explained that they had developed not only a caliber, but also an upper receiver group that would drop on existing M4 carbines (or AR15s). This upper receiver group uses a standard M4 bolt and Bolt Carrier Group (BCG). We pointed out that this allowed for an immediate swap for Military or Law Enforcement teams that were already using the M4 as all they would need would be for their armorers to change out barrels. I don’t think my observation was anything new, and he agreed. He went on to state there were three types of SAAMI approved ammunition immediately available with additional options coming up in the near future. Current ammunition types are the 123 gr. MC 300BLK, 155 gr. OTM 300BLK, and 220 gr. SUBSONIC OTM 300BLK. Each round is purpose driven, and allows selection for a given mission. The supersonic ammunition was developed as a 5.56 replacement, while the heavier subsonic ammo was designed to give a total weapon replacement option for users of the MP5 and MP7. Barrier Blind Optimal Penetration ammo is currently under development. One weapon and caliber replacing the standard M4, AND the more specialized HK MP-5 and HK MP-7A1? It sounds like a congressman or city managers prayers have been answered, never mind unit armorer and supply guys. Money issues aside, training with one weapon platform makes more sense than jumping back and forth. Of course we use the best tools available for the job, but sometimes less is more. Advanced Armament Corp is best known for their suppressors, and it makes sense that along with the development of the upper and ammunition, a silencer would be included. The numbers given to us show the new 762-SDN-6 suppressor is shooting a 220 grain 300BLK bullet at 1000FPS at 126.2 dB. The MP5-SD is firing a 115 grain bullet at 900FPS at 130dB with its HK suppressor. I understand that these numbers were not done at the same time, and that various testing methods can show different results, so I look at these as rough numbers. Anyone who had fired a suppressed MP5 knows how quiet they are, so even as a ballpark figure, these numbers are impressive. Below are the listed design objectives as they were given. When I asked who had come to AAC/ Remington with these design objectives, I was met with a moment of silence, and told it just came as part of a project. Fair enough. DESIGN OBJECTIVES • Create a reliable compact 30-cal solution for the AR platform • Utilize existing inventory magazines while retaining their full capacity • Create the optimal platform for sound and flash suppressed fire • Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39 ballistics • Provide the ability to penetrate barriers with high-mass projectiles • Provide all capabilities in a lightweight, durable, low recoiling package Mr. Silvers pointed out several times that this was not a caliber that was exclusive to the Military or Law Enforcement market. His stated his goal was to be able to deliver a reliable source of ammunition through Remington, and to make the 300 AAC Blackout something affordable for target shooters and hunters. There are a lot of AR15 shooters in this country, and a lot of hunters, but most states will not allow hunting with a .22 caliber. The advent of the 300 AAC Blackout may bring interest from a few other avenues as news of this circulates throughout the shooting community. While 6.8SPC is an option, there many people who will like the ability to use their current AR15 magazines, as well as using a standard 5.56 bolt. Ammunition reloaders may find their .30 favorite bullets another reason to look at the 300 AAC Blackout. There is a lot more information that we have on this weapon system, but we have one in hand, and ammunition enroute to us. We are going to put the weapon and rounds in the hands of MIL and LE trigger pullers, then report back with our findings. For now, check out the new website and start soaking it all up. |
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Soooo, 300 Whisper is now mainstream? They trying to piss off JD?
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Soooo, 300 Whisper is now mainstream? They trying to piss off JD? Sounds more like 7.62x40. |
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Why no pictures of the round?
Either way, color me interested. |
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It seems to me there is a lot of talk in this area but no real action. I've been looking for variant barrels for awhile now with no luck.
Looking for the 30 HRT and 7.62x40. Anyone knows of any stocking dealers? |
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So 30 years ago the Soviets changed from 7.62x39 to 5.46x39 to mimmic the Nato 5.56 and now we are going to go to a 7.62x35 to mimic the 7.62x39?
I guess history does repeat itself. |
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That is an extremely STRANGE looking round. How does this compare ballistically to the 6.8SPC? Better? Faster? Flatter? Obviously it's got more knockdown and mass for expansion, but it looks SLOW.
Regardless, I want a 12.5. |
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Even though it can be seen as reinventing the 7.62x39, doing something like this can have advantages that the 7.62x39 does not have. With this design one of the aims seems to be being able to load it in standard AR type magazines unlike the x39 that needs special magazines. Another thing is that it can be standardized to use .308 diameter bullets instead of the x39s .311 diameter, this gives a much wider selection of bullets. Lastly, unlike things like the 300 whisper this cartridge is being brought out by a more major company and could lead to success because of this backing.
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So Kurt's 7.62x40 and JD's 300 Whisper had an offspring, the 7.62x35 (300 Blackout)....
This may be good as I have both a 7.62x40 and a 300/221 (Whisper) and I think the potential of both has not been realized. Here's hoping Remington doesn't drop the ball again... As for the 7.62x39 being remade, that isn't really true. While ballistics of the supersonics may be similar 7.62x39 has traditionally been available only with poor bullets and has way too much case taper for the AR mag well. It also has a larger case head that makes for thinner bolt faces. I think this round can find it's niche, though I don't imagine it will replace 5.56 as the primary NATO caliber anytime soon. |
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Very interesting. Although my knowledge is limited when it comes to ballistics, I just wonder how long it takes for a new round to get off the ground and become "mainstream"/readily available. I'd love to get into the variants world but I do not reload and don't want to spend big bucks on hard to find ammo.
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How many times can we re-invent the 7.62x39......... Exactly... "Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39 ballistics" Know what matches 7.62X39 ballistics really well? Umm... 7.62X39 |
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How many times can we re-invent the 7.62x39......... Exactly... "Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39 ballistics" Know what matches 7.62X39 ballistics really well? Umm... 7.62X39 You missed "compatible". If you want 7.62x39 ballistics in an AK sure, go 7.62x39. If you want it in an AR there are better options. |
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How many times can we re-invent the 7.62x39......... Exactly... "Create compatible supersonic ammo that matches 7.62×39 ballistics" Know what matches 7.62X39 ballistics really well? Umm... 7.62X39 You missed "compatible". If you want 7.62x39 ballistics in an AK sure, go 7.62x39. If you want it in an AR there are better options. Much better...The 5.56 bolt face in the AR-15 platform is far superior to a 7.62 bolt face, as are 5.56 mags to 7.62x39 mags... |
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Look at it for what it is. You have a platform that fires a 7.62 caliber cartridge in an AR SBR sized platform that cycles subsonic ammunition reliably and is backed by one of the largest arms manufacturer as well as suppressor manufacturer.
I would think this is aimed at door kickers primarily LEO and MIL. Clear a room with suppressed M-16s firing supersonic ammo and it's still f...ing loud. Now fire a 220GR subsonic round and look at the difference. Hopefully with Remington's backing, it will not be $42.00 per box of 20 or restricted to those who like to reload (300 Whisper, 300/221, etc.). Anyway, it does prove how modular the AR platform is. |
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From the upper's owner's manual...
HANDLOADING If you load your own ammo, pay special attention to all of the normal safety practices. Recommended powders for most supersonic loads are Hodgdon H110 and Lil’Gun. For subsonic, there are special requirements and nearly all published loads are non-optimal for the 300 BLK upper. Many existing loads were developed for Thompson Center® single-shot pistols, or for ARs by people not aware of the magazine limitations. These loads pay no attention to automatic rifle function and should not be used. Look for a load which results in a cyclic rate of 700 rpm or more. AA1680 is recommended because its bulk density matches the case capacity and it will generate enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon. PARTS REPLACEMENT Barrel RECREATIONAL USE______ 50,000 rounds Barrel HARD USE / COMPETITION__35,000 rounds Barrel MISSION-CRITICAL USE____20,000 rounds |
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Woo Hoo! I think I just decided on my #3 300 BLK.
My #s so far #2 .223/5.56 #4 458 SOCOM #5 50 Beowulf Hmmmm, anyone make a .17 upper? |
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Woo Hoo! I think I just decided on my #3 300 BLK. My #s so far #2 .223/5.56 #4 458 SOCOM #5 50 Beowulf Hmmmm, anyone make a .17 upper? I don't know about .17, but I think the .204 Ruger would make a very nice #1 for you. |
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It's a decent idea. I'd rather see 6X35 for supersonic applications. But subsonic has its uses too.
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For subsonic applications, I think it is a good idea. +1 i was just about ready to order up a 300 whisper but I think I'll hold off a little and see if these make it to market in a reasonable amount of time. Maybe like by the time I get the stamp for my EVO-9 |
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it says uppers go into production in october 2010 soooo now..
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Woo Hoo! I think I just decided on my #3 300 BLK. My #s so far #2 .223/5.56 #4 458 SOCOM #5 50 Beowulf Hmmmm, anyone make a .17 upper? yes, do a search. Alexander Arms offers a .17HMR rifle (also called Ghengis) |
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Wow, I can hardly wait....what's next the 11.6 SOCOM
It's just another JD work-around. It was done with the 300-221 the 300 fireball HK did it with the 7.62x37mm now the Blackout I've fired .223 based supersonic/subsonic .30 cals on 30, 33, 35, 37, and 38mm length cases.... The larger than Whisper 35mm case makes subsonic standard deviations worse.....leads to vertical stringing And the 1680 that they suggest for reliable cycling will increase by about a grain and a half, about 40 to 50 fps over the Whisper.... It's an opportunity that the "bigs" have to sell more hardware. |
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why buy a complete upper, would a barrel swap not be sufficient?
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That's exactly what I'm thinking. I REALLY hope they sell seperate barrels!
ETA, yes only a barrel swap. Everything else in the rifle is the same as 5.56 |
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Why no pictures of the round? Either way, color me interested. I didn't have the ammunition on hand when I wrote the article, so I couldn't take any pictures of it. When I get the ammunition, and write up an evaluation based on live fire usage (including FA & Suppressed), I'll include more images. My understanding is that barrels are in the works. There is no need to buy a complete upper unless you don't want to rebarrel one of your existing ones. |
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It seems to me there is a lot of talk in this area but no real action. I've been looking for variant barrels for awhile now with no luck. Looking for the 30 HRT and 7.62x40. Anyone knows of any stocking dealers? PM sent |
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Why no pictures of the round? Either way, color me interested. I didn't have the ammunition on hand when I wrote the article, so I couldn't take any pictures of it. When I get the ammunition, and write up an evaluation based on live fire usage (including FA & Suppressed), I'll include more images. My understanding is that barrels are in the works. There is no need to buy a complete upper unless you don't want to rebarrel one of your existing ones. Please look at some 300/221 or 300 whiper rounds. I am still thinking this new thing is close enough to work in a whisper. The whisper trim to length is 1.355 which is 34.42mm. Given the sloppy nature of chambers and trimming, I would feel fine pulling the trigger on a 7.62x35 BAK in my 300 whisper. I am confident it will chamber just fine. 35mm is 1.378" –– well within tolerances I think. Try some 300 W rounds in the BAK barrel and vice versa. My bet is that it will be backwards compatible with most 300 whisper guns, but they are not eager to say so ––JDJ law suit? There is an old thread with lots on trim length over on the 300 W forums: http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=453 Seems length is not that critical. My AAC suppressor likes 300 W just fine: |
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Why no pictures of the round? Either way, color me interested. I didn't have the ammunition on hand when I wrote the article, so I couldn't take any pictures of it. When I get the ammunition, and write up an evaluation based on live fire usage (including FA & Suppressed), I'll include more images. My understanding is that barrels are in the works. There is no need to buy a complete upper unless you don't want to rebarrel one of your existing ones. Please look at some 300/221 or 300 whiper rounds. I am still thinking this new thing is close enough to work in a whisper. The whisper trim to length is 1.355 which is 34.42mm. Given the sloppy nature of chambers and trimming, I would feel fine pulling the trigger on a 7.62x35 BAK in my 300 whisper. I am confident it will chamber just fine. 35mm is 1.378" –– well within tolerances I think. Try some 300 W rounds in the BAK barrel and vice versa. My bet is that it will be backwards compatible with most 300 whisper guns, but they are not eager to say so ––JDJ law suit? There is an old thread with lots on trim length over on the 300 W forums: http://www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=453 Seems length is not that critical. My AAC suppressor likes 300 W just fine: http://listmequick.com/AR10/100_1329.JPG That would be sweet to see this ammo mass produced if W compatible |
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Just saw this on AAC's Facebook page. Seems like the caliber we've all been waiting for. Hard hitting, quiet, and seats 30 in a standard GI magazine. Comes in 123gr, 155gr, and 220gr flavors. This thing is going to be the HEAT like Bobby Deniro!
I'm downing a pitcher of this AAC/Remington Kool-aid right now! First thing Monday morning, I'm calling Mers at AAC to see about getting an upper and some ammo. –– Evan |
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Dont know why some one just does not come up with a AR that takes AK mags.
For me it is simple. It is either one of my Ar's or my S.A. SOCOM 16. i used to back in the day only take my M1 A if i thought game or large varmints may be encountered on my day to day routine until i found out stuff i was shooting with my SP-1 carbine sure was dropping just as dead. Now its my SPR in 5.56 that gets out more than anything. |
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That is an extremely STRANGE looking round. How does this compare ballistically to the 6.8SPC? Better? Faster? Flatter? Obviously it's got more knockdown and mass for expansion, but it looks SLOW. Regardless, I want a 12.5. It will not compare to the 6.8 SPC in terms of faster or flatter. Assuming this round can improve on 300 Whisper by 100fps you'll see velocities like 2200fps for the 123gr bullet, 2000fps for the 155gr bullet, and around 1000fps for the 220 (since subsonic is the point) in an SBR. Add about 100-150 fps or so for a 16" barrel and maybe 50-100fps more for a 20" barrel. This round will likely be very efficient in short barrels just like the 300 Whisper and the 7.62x40. It has a large bore to case diameter ratio and uses fast burning powder. That is also why you won't gain much in a longer barrel. The case volume and powder burn rate won't take advantage of a long tube. A long range gun it will not be. For CQB or suppressed work it could be very useful provided they use the right bullets. |
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I read the original post and was thinking 300 whisper............sure enough, it basicly is a 300 whisper.........wow, someone reinvented the wheel and it is still round. you do not need much case for subsonic.......x25mm will get the 200 and 220 grain projectiles running subsonic with no problems..............so 5.56 brass can now be formed to this case also.
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I don't really get it. For long range (unsuppressed, obviously), I'd much rather use a 6.8 SPC. For short range, suppressed use, the .300BLK delivers 498 ft-lbf at the muzzle. That's in the .40S&W - .45ACP range of energy, and those suppress just fine. And it seems to me that you would need to either pick a twist rate for 123 grain or 220 grain, which means even though the round is versatile, your particular gun is only going to use one or the other (I think).
So it's outclassed at long range and has the energy of a handgun bullet at close range? For those who want it, I'm sure it'll be their favorite toy because suppressing a subsonic round is awesome fun. But suppressed rifle rounds suck compared to their full power relatives, and this one's full power relative doesn't have any point in the wake of .223 and 6.8. AAC keeps comparing it it 7.62x39, but that's honestly not what it's competing against. Cool round, but where's the application for it? |
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Hm, interesting. I've been kicking around getting a 338spectre, but it's just a lot of trouble. This looks like it's going to get some serious backing under Remington Arms. Also appears to be a pretty versatile loading range.
I wonder what the parent case is, looks like dies are already online for reloaders. With just a barrel swap, this could be a good deal. |
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I don't really get it. For long range (unsuppressed, obviously), I'd much rather use a 6.8 SPC. For short range, suppressed use, the .300BLK delivers 498 ft-lbf at the muzzle. That's in the .40S&W - .45ACP range of energy, and those suppress just fine. Did you not think that, it's not designed for long range unsuppressed use? We all know there are a lot better long range calibers out there that can fit into a AR15 magazine. And how often do you see a 40S&W and 45ACP upper for the AR15? And also use AR15 mags, which pretty much everyone here has. And it seems to me that you would need to either pick a twist rate for 123 grain or 220 grain, which means even though the round is versatile, your particular gun is only going to use one or the other (I think). 1/8 twist will stabilize everything from a 123-220 grain 30 cal bullet just fine. No need to pick different twist rates. |
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I don't really get it. For long range (unsuppressed, obviously), I'd much rather use a 6.8 SPC. For short range, suppressed use, the .300BLK delivers 498 ft-lbf at the muzzle. That's in the .40S&W - .45ACP range of energy, and those suppress just fine. Did you not think that, it's not designed for long range unsuppressed use? We all know there are a lot better long range calibers out there that can fit into a AR15 magazine. And how often do you see a 40S&W and 45ACP upper for the AR15? And also use AR15 mags, which pretty much everyone here has. And it seems to me that you would need to either pick a twist rate for 123 grain or 220 grain, which means even though the round is versatile, your particular gun is only going to use one or the other (I think). 1/8 twist will stabilize everything from a 123-220 110-240 grain 30 cal bullet just fine. No need to pick different twist rates. Fixed it for you. A 1:8 Whisper barrel will shoot 110's fine and still stabilize 240's. The only disadvantage to the fast twist is you won't get peak velocity with the smaller bullets and you may get more throat wear. |
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300 Whisper/Fireball/Blackout tend to NOT have issues with throat erosion and excessive barrel wear due to the low powder volume coupled with relatively large bore diameter...
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300 Whisper/Fireball/Blackout tend to NOT have issues with throat erosion and excessive barrel wear due to the low powder volume coupled with relatively large bore diameter... Doc, have you done any testing with the Whisper? I'm just wondering if you've had any luck finding good terminal performance at he reduced velocity. If not, I don't see how this round could begin to replace 5.56 or other calibers. I hope to do some gel testing with my 300/221 and my 7.62x40 soon. My department may be doing some testing on 5.56 ammo soon so I'm plan to learn the process buy some of my own gelatin. |
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A .30 caliber round in this day and age, are they losing it?
There's a range of projectile diameters suitable for the AR platform, none of which are .30 caliber. The choices are from 6.5mm to 7mm, and that's it. But, I'm sure that there's someone out there quite willing to spend government money to rediscover the above. |
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A .30 caliber round in this day and age, are they losing it?
There's a range of projectile diameters suitable for the AR platform, none of which are .30 caliber. The choices are from 6.5mm to 7mm, and that's it. But, I'm sure that there's someone out there quite willing to spend government money to rediscover the above. I'm pretty sure you are a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC troll but for anyone interested in this cartridge like I am who is a newb to AR variants here is my take: This isn't a full power 30 caliber like .308 or .30-06. It is an intermediate cartridge designed to be comparable to 7.62x39 at supersonic velocities (arguably the most successful military cartridge in the world) and to also provide reliable subsonic rounds in the same gun. That is a huge range of applications from the same gun for both LEO and civilian needs all in an AR platform with just a barrel change. I've been planning on a 300 Whisper for several applications but will take a hard look at the 300 Blackout since it will be SAAMI certified and will have support from major manufacturers. Supersonic = deer out to around 200 yards, varmits, plinking. Supressed subsonic = hog control, fun, self-defense. I can't ask for much more from a single firearm. Happy shooting. |
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IMHO this is the round to shoot uber-suppressed out of an virtually stock AR platform. It can shoot a long slender .30 cal slug in the same weight range and velocities as 45 ACP but functions with no non-standard parts other than a barrel. It also operates in a DI setup instead of a super dirty blow-back like most pistol caliber ARs.
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The following was posted on Quarterbore from someone claiming to be R&D for AAC:
If you load your own ammo, pay special attention to all of the normal safety practices. Recommended powder for most supersonic loads is Hodgdon H110. For subsonic, there are special requirements and nearly all published loads are non-optimal for the 300 BLK upper. Many existing loads were developed for Thompson Center® single-shot pistols, or for ARs by people not aware of the magazine limitations. These loads pay no attention to automatic rifle function and should not be used. Look for a load which results in a cyclic rate of 700 rpm or more. AA1680 is recommended because its bulk density matches the case capacity and it will generate enough gas pressure to cycle the weapon. Suggested subsonic load: • R-P 300 AAC BLACKOUT brass • Remington 7.5 primers • 11.2 grains of AA 1680 powder • Case length is 1.368 +0.000 -0.020 • Sierra 220 MK loaded to 2.089 OAL (this length is optimal for reliable feeding from USGI magazines) • Chamber pressure 21,100 psi. Existing AR magazines have a rib which normally contacts the 5.56mm case-neck. With 300 BLK ammo, the contact is on the bullet. Because the bullet is a larger diameter, the rib will push the cartridges out of alignment, and can lead to binding potentially resulting in Failures to Feed. For this reason, it is important to load ammunition so that the contact point with the magazine rib is on the bullet ogive in an area of about 0.250 inch diameter. Here are some suggested OAL for popular bullets: • Hornady 110 V-Max, OAL: 2.000 • 110 TSX, 2.015 OAL • Sierra 155 Palma, 2.150 OAL • Sierra 220, 2.089 OAL • Lapua B416 200 grain, 1.960 OAL • Hornady 150 FMJ-BT 3037, 2.065 OAL • Nosler Ballistic Tip 125 grain, OAL: 2.085 • Remington AccuTip 125 grain, OAL: 2.085 • Hornady 130 SP #3020, OAL: 2.010 • Sierra H2120 125 ProHunter, OAL: 1.950 • Speer TNT 125 1986, OAL: 2.010 With a case length of 1.348" to 1.368" it sounds exactly like a 300 Whisper / 300-221 / 300 Fireball which has a trim to length of 1.355". I'm assuming since they recommend AA1680 as the subsonic powder that the system uses a carbine length gas tube instead the pistol length. That is unfortunate as the pistol length has proven to be more versatile when switching back and forth between subsonic and supersonic. As for the magazine problems caused by the bullet diameter that isn't anything new with AR shooters. I've found that a Pmag with the side rib removed is the best solution as opposed to loading ammo to a restrictive length. This also works well with my 7.62x40 which can't rely on overall length as the case is too long to allow such short loading. Overall, I don't see anything new here. That said, I think it will be good for the cartridge family to have a SAAMI approved chamber and solid factory backing. I'm still waiting to see if the ammo is interchangable between the Blackout and the Whisper. From what I have read I suspect it may be. |
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Altair,
Do you have a method for removing that rib from inside the Pmag body? A 1/4" wood chisel is what I am considering. |
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