Questions keep coming up about putting together AR-15s chambered for 7.62x39mm, so here's what I know as of April 2008.

Manfacturers who currently offer 7.62x39mm upper receivers include Del-Ton, DoubleStar, DPMS, Model 1 Sales, Olympic Arms and Sabre Defense for uppers that will go right on a standard 5.56/.223 lower; Colt also produced a 7.62x39mm Sporter model that is out of production but findable on the used market and Armalite is said to have one available in the very near future. MGI has a modular magazine lower receiver system that allows use of an AK magazine and the AR47 is an out of production lower that also allows use of AK magazines.

A quick look at the standard configuration production uppers shows them all being offered as 16" carbines and 20" rifles. Commentary I've seen here has been to the effect that there's not much appreciable difference. All seem to be produced with 1:10 rifling and none are chrome lined. Model 1 Sales also offers an 11.5" 7.62x39mm pistol upper.

Be aware that the Model 1 barrels have a 1/2 x 36 thread pitch, so muzzle device options are limited. All I've found besides the A2 FH that is standard is a Phantom FH.

MGI produces bolt carriers modified to clear AK mag feed lips.  MGI also has a bolt and firing pin combo optimized for eastern European steel case ammo.

Quoted: It has a normal 7.62x39 AR15 bolt which has been reamed in the firing pin channel for a re-profiled and extended firing pin. This firing pin has a new profile which will strike deeper and more fully than a normal AR15 firing pin, and will be much more reliable in striking for the Wolf and Combloc 7.62x39 ammo. The pin provides the correct tip protrusion thru the bolt face, and is large enough diameter on the tip to prevent primer piercing, while still striking deeply enough and fully enough.

It's been advised in the past that one part subject to breakage is the bolt, so I have a spare, but with ~1600 rounds through a Model 1 upper, I've had no problems yet. A carbine buffer and spring have been working well also.

While I personally think this conversion makes a great platform for the 7.62 round that smokes the Kalishnikovs and SKSs both in accuracy and ergonomically, the weak point at this time is magazines.

Magazines I have tried:

• 7 rounds in a standard 5.56 magazine works OK.
• Colt made 5 rounders that work; these magazines are out of production.
• USA made some 10 rounders that have worked for me, with some FTFs - they work best loaded with just 8 rounds - while others have reported no luck; these magazines are out of production.
• MWG makes plastic 5 and 10 round mags that did not work at all for me, while others have had better luck.
• USA also made the so-called "Frankenmags" which were an AK mag body grafted to an AR mag "head," and, while they're also out of production, the 20 and 30 rounders do seem to work. I've got one such 40 rounder and it's a bit unwieldy.
• National Magazines has recently put out an 18-20 round magazine for this application - I bought and tried one and it did not work at all satisfactorily (dropped out of the gun after every shot).
• C Products has new production 5 and 10 rounders and the 10 rounders I've used perform well.

On the horizon are C Products very-soon-to-be-released (we hope) 30 rounders, to be followed by new 20 rounders.

Of course, with MGI's modular system or an AR47, you can use AK magazines.

That's all I can think of right now. Corrections and additions are welcome.

1 in 12" twist

Is that Colt chrome lined?

Quoted: Is that Colt chrome lined?

NO.  As of right now, there are not 7.62x39 bbl's that are CL.

My Colt Sporter AR-7.62x39 is a 1/12 twist.  I have found that several after market Mags have failed to be reliable to the point that I would NOT go into combat with them.  However, the 1st generation of the C Products 25rd AR-7.62x39 Mags worked GREAT for me while others had some issues.  Larry and his staff are waiting on the last item (followers) to be able to ship their 30rd AR-7.62x39 Mags.

When I obtained my Colt AR-7.62x39, the original owner had cycled 500rds of Wolf FMJ ammo.  I first treated the Colt with Microlon and have since added anther 2,500 rounds (without any oils/lubes) of Wolf, Winchester, and reload ammo with FMJ/HP/SP bullets with just a few FTF.

I am looking forward to producing another video for C Products of the performance of their 2nd generation of 30rd AR-7.62x39 Mag.  At present you can see the performance of their 10rd AR-7.62x39 Mag from their home page.

After the treatment of Microlon, I was able to pull my 100yrd groups into ½”, where before the treatment, we had 1” groupings.  I can’t say enough about this product!  Cleaning is a snap, and being from the Deserts of Arizona, I have NO problems with dust or sand buildup within this AR-15 that others have to deal with.

Your fun will begin when you start to get into reloading for this round and experience the improved performance of the 7.62x39 used in an AR-15!  My son said that for plunking the 5.56 are fun, but “I GOT TO GET ME ONE OF THESE”!

ArticWolf

Colt manufactured it's 7.62x39 Sporter Light, Model R6830, from 1993 until I believe abouit 1998. This was a carbine length AR with A2 buttstock, A2 upper receiver, 16" barrel, etc. In addition, they also offered flat top upper receiver assembly conversion kits with both 16", Model R6850DC, and 20", Model R6851DC, barrel lengths.

I picked up a couple of R6830s back in the day during the AW ban because they were under-appreciated at the time and I got great deals on them despite being pre-ban ARs. The first was purchased as a factory original R6830. The second as a lower receiver assembly and I subsequently sourced a Colt R6850DC 16" upper receiver assembly conversion kit and added M4 handguards and an M4 stock for a sweet little carbine.



Original Colt ad for the R6830 from the 1993 New Products brochure:



Magazine have always been the Achille's heel of the 7.62x39 AR-15.

Pretty much any USGI 5.56 magazine will work reliability with 5-6 rounds of 7.62x39. After that, the cartridges begin to bind up and jam.

Colt first used regular USGI 20 round magazines with internal blocks to limit capacity to 5 rounds of 7.62x39. These internal blocks were easily removed after which the magazine would function just like any other USGI 20 round magazine. After the ban they switched to a cut down USGI style magazine feed tower with a unique composite base to prevent them from being converted back into 20 round magazines in violation of the AW ban at the time.

Because the 7.62x39 AR15 appeared relatively shortly before the AW ban and never really gained much popularity in that time, development of high capacity magazines for it was limited. While there were some stamped sheet metal magazines from companies such as Triple-K, Western, USA, etc, the only ones worth a darn were what are essentially hybrid magazines; AR15 style feed towers welded or riveted to AK47 style bodies. Scherer and Gordon Technologies magazines are the most robust of the preban high capacity magazines. These are aftermarket steel AR towers TIG welded to genuine AK47 magazine bodies with similarly genuine AK47 springs and followers. Surprisingly, despite otherwise having a reputation for total crap, USA had some good high cap 7.62.39 AR magazines that used their own AR style steel feed tower spot welded to their proprietery AK style body, spring and follower and they work very well.

Here is a pic of the various types of 7.62x39 AR15 magazines I have collected over the years:



Top row, left to right: MWG 10 round, Colt post-ban 5 round, Colt pre-ban 5 round.
Bottom row, left to right: Scherer 30 round, G-Tech 30 round, USA 20 round, USA 30 round.

The Scherer and G-Tech mags are nearly as robust as an AK47 magazines. One could probably drive nails with them if necessary.

I am now anxiously awaiting C-Products release of their 30 round 7.62x39 AR magazines for evaluation.

Will muzzle brakes from .308 AR's work properly on a X39?

MGI also has a bolt and firing pin combo optimized for eastern European steel case ammo.

Quoted: It has a normal 7.62x39 AR15 bolt which has been reamed in the firing pin channel for a re-profiled and extended firing pin. This firing pin has a new profile which will strike deeper and more fully than a normal AR15 firing pin, and will be much more reliable in striking for the Wolf and Combloc 7.62x39 ammo. The pin provides the correct tip protrusion thru the bolt face, and is large enough diameter on the tip to prevent primer piercing, while still striking deeply enough and fully enough.

It's been advised in the past that one part subject to breakage is the bolt, so I have a spare, but with ~1600 rounds through a Model 1 upper, I've had no problems yet. A carbine buffer and spring have been working well also.

While I personally think this conversion makes a great platform for the 7.62 round that smokes the Kalishnikovs and SKSs both in accuracy and ergonomically, the weak point at this time is magazines.



I have been interested in this conversion for awhile.
With no cheap 223 ammo available any more, and with C-products coming out with reliable mags, it looks better all the time.
Will the MGI bolt and firing pin work with the standard AR15 bolt carriers? It seems there bolt carrier is mainly intended for use with there lowers that are made for the AK magazines, and is not needed if you are using a standard AR lower.
Has anyone had any experience with the Del-Ton barrel and bolt assembly? If so was there any trouble that wasn't due to a magazine problem.

Great info!  Who makes M4 profile barrels in 7.62x39?  I remember seeing several places a couple months ago but can not seem to remember them or find them in my bookmarked favorites.  Would like my 7.62 upper to look like my .22 and .223 uppers.  

Thanks and let's keep supporting Larry and the gang over at C-Products in the hopes they will come out with 20 and 30 rounders again!  Mike D.

Quoted: Great info!  Who makes M4 profile barrels in 7.62x39?

Sabre Defense lists M4 profile 7.62x39mm AR barrels - 16", 1:10, not chrome lined, kinda pricey.

I would love to have one of the MGI bolt and firing pin sets but man are they pricey!!!  $125 for just a bolt and pin is more than I want to spend.  If the price comes down I will definitely buy one.

Quoted: Quoted: Great info!  Who makes M4 profile barrels in 7.62x39? Sabre Defense lists M4 profile 7.62x39mm AR barrels - 16", 1:10, not chrome lined, kinda pricey.

Sabre offers chrome plating as an upgrade in 5.56 and 6.5 Grendel.

Call and ask them if they offer this option for the 7.62x39 as well.

Some compensator info

From an older thread: 7.62x39 Compensator

Quoted: The thread is the same as a "Colt Style" 9mm pistol barrel. I tried both the RRA A1 style style in 1/2-36 and the Smith Enterprise Vortex for the 9mm. You can buy both from RRA. The A1 style is only $11 so you cant go wrong rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=243 (made it hot - MMcfpd) or the Vortex from Brownells www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/productdetail.aspx?p=25230&st=vortex%209mm&s= (made it hot - MMcfpd) The 9mm bullet is .355 so the clearance is slightly big for the .311 of the 7.62X39 but thats ok . I run have a Sako brake made for the 338 that I run on a 308 as well that still makes a significant difference ( even though the clearance is too big )

And:

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I got a muzzle brake from EGW(Evolution Gun Works in Quakertown,Pa) They made me one, but when I received it I checked it out and the bore in the brake was the same as the bullet size(.311). I had to bore it out the correct size. I am glade I did it or would had a bullet stuck and maybe wasted my gun or others around me. It cost me $95.00 plus setting up and  renting time on a lathe to bore it out. It cost in the end $115.00. I will not buy from them again, gun parts need good QC or someone could get hurt or killed. IMHO. Mike     Mike: What was the correct size you arrived at to bore that out from the .311 size to use the brake? I made the bore 30 thousands of an inch over to make it .341 and broke the sharp edge of the front of the bore in each chamber to make it like a muzzle of a barrel. I will not get to test it till next week. I put the same type of brake on my .223 AR, now I have shot both uppers with flash hiders and with flash hiders to get a base line group of 5. I will give a range report after testing. Mike

Oh, PWS is going to offer 7.62x39 uppers with their gas piston system....sometime.

Here:  Official PWS Piston System Release

Were it me, I would eschew the 1/2"-36 thread with a 7.62x39 barrel from Model 1 Sales.  IMO not enough material left over after threading.

Better to order the unthreaded barrel, then have it threaded for the AK-47 14x1 LH.

YMMV.

Quoted: Quoted: Great info!  Who makes M4 profile barrels in 7.62x39? Sabre Defense lists M4 profile 7.62x39mm AR barrels - 16", 1:10, not chrome lined, kinda pricey.

Thanks for the info.  Kinda pricey!?  Damn!  Maybe I should just buy a regular 16" barrel and have my machine shop spin it up on the lathe....  Mike D.

Quoted: Were it me, I would eschew the 1/2"-36 thread with a 7.62x39 barrel from Model 1 Sales.  IMO not enough material left over after threading. Better to order the unthreaded barrel, then have it threaded for the AK-47 14x1 LH. YMMV.

I've got one of my 7.62x39 barrels threaded 5/8"-24.  Same thread as the M60 as well as what some AR10 barrels use.  
I'd recommend that over the AK thread as there are more accessories available including sound suppressors.

Quoted: I've got one of my 7.62x39 barrels threaded 5/8"-24.  Same thread as the M60 as well as what some AR10 barrels use.   I'd recommend that over the AK thread as there are more accessories available including sound suppressors.

For suppressors, your suggestion is the better one, by far.  Thanks for mentioning it because there might be those who are interested in both (suppressors and the 7.62x39 upper).

For Flash Hiders and Compensators, there are more then enough regardless of which way you go.

Quoted: Quoted: I've got one of my 7.62x39 barrels threaded 5/8"-24.  Same thread as the M60 as well as what some AR10 barrels use.   I'd recommend that over the AK thread as there are more accessories available including sound suppressors. For suppressors, your suggestion is the better one, by far.  Thanks for mentioning it because there might be those who are interested in both (suppressors and the 7.62x39 upper). For Flash Hiders and Compensators, there are more then enough regardless of which way you go.

Here's my 7.62x39 setup.

My barrel is threaded in 1/2-36.  Tim at SAS made a mount for my .30 cal can with 1/2-36 threads.

Another little bit from Life expectancy for 7.62x39 bolts:

Quoted: The 6.8SPC bolt "should" be stronger than the 7.62x39 bolt, "all thing being equal", because there's about .010" more supporting thickness under the lugs in the 6.8SPC bolt. And the 5.56 bolt "should" be stronger than either of those two, for similar reasons of supporting material under the lugs. ... However, if you are actually using 7.62x39 ammo, and not using the bolt in a "wildcat" caliber or hot reloads, the pressures seen from the 7.62x39 ammo are low enough to pretty much compensate for the reduction in lug support, and should not pose a major problem to the longevity of the bolt. As long as it is a quality bolt.

Quoted: Quoted: Far as I understand the buffer and spring don't come into effect till after the "explosion" and the bullet is gone.   Some types of buffers can delay the extraction timing, which is a big issue for reliability in carbines, and can affect bolt life(primarily at the cam pin hole breakage point). Heavy buffers will also do this.

And some older 7.62 pics I had.

7.62x39 AR chamber and ramps:


5.56 (left) and 7.62x39 (right) bolt faces:


7.62x39 bolt catch dings - never did figure why the bolt was hitting it, although the problem's gone away:



7.62x39mm USA 10 round mag:


7.62x39mm MWG 5 & 10 round mags:


7.62x39mm Colt 5 round mag:


National mag (new production) that doesn't work:



Other mags I've tried:


And my Model 1 7.62x39 AR almost in its current state (Geissele FCG added since the photo):

The Osprey piston conversion kit is interesting.  When the kit is offered to civilians, I wonder, if the kit would work with the 7.62x39?  

The Osprey kit will work with about any style of hand guards and is cheaper in price.  The more possible options, the better.

I have a 7.62x39 DPMS 16" carbine upper, on a Stag lower.  I have ordered and will try a Wolff extra power spring with a H3 buffer to slow the bolt down, and hope to control any bounce.  I will probably pick up a MGI 7.62x39 bolt, as a back-up to the DPMS bolt, for the moment.

I have heard of someone using the 25 round 6.5 Grendel mags with the 7.62x39, without any issues.  If that is true, that is possibly, another option for a higher capacity mag.

The 7.62x51mm was the original AR platform caliber and it works today. I see the 7.62x39mm usage in a similar platform as a good experiment; with great end results.  It will take time to resolve these operational issues.  

I am biased, I like the old M43 round.  Thanks for great information, as always.

It looks like CProducts will soon be shipping.....

Quoted: Sort of reminds me of that Old TV commercial... " Anyday now, anyday..." In this case it will be true! The new followers will be at C Products on Tuesday the 22nd and we will be at the range to test them. We should be able to start assembling magaines late next week. Finally!! Larry CProducts Industry Partner Posted :: Yesterday 12:11:34 PM EDT

MMcfpd,

Looking at your photo "7.62x39 AR chamber and ramps:" I have never experienced what you have shown here.  I would be looking for answers from the manufacture on this one.

ArticWolf

I'm not sure I understand, Arctic Wolf.

Anybody running a 7.62X39 upper on a Cav Arms lower? if so are you running a heavier buffer and spring?

I might just try that whenever my Cav Aid lower appears.

Rule of thumb on AR/AK mags
If its straight better wait, if its bent the rounds get spent!

Tip drop is the biggest problem with the 7.62x39 round in the AR because the rounds are conical and the AR is designed for a cylinderical round. The solution is to create an increased angle when mating the magwell part to the banana part as with the frankenmags, it allows the front of the cartridge to be supported or even angled up. The standard AK follower is used with some slight modifications. If Cproducts builds a straight mag its not gonna work regardless of the follower, there's a reason AK mags are banana shaped.

Mags suck, drums rule!

AI AR10-Dan in Ga

Apparently you haven't seen the CProducts 7.62x39 AR mag. The curve is more than an AK mag.

True I haven't seem them (since I care little as my stuff works), hence my comments, the mag must be an exaggerated curve to allow the lower rounds to support the upper rounds in the mag when they are in the straight magwell. An excessive bend does suffice, the same is true for the drums, and as I've said mags suck, drums rule.

AI AR10-Dan in Ga

I've been looking for 16" midlength gas system uppers or kits.

I see that Sabre Defense has them.

Sabre Defense M5 7.62x39

Are they available from anyone else?

Thanks.

Quoted: I've been looking for 16" midlength gas system uppers or kits. I see that Sabre Defense has them. Sabre Defense M5 7.62x39 Are they available from anyone else? Thanks.

I would like to know also.

Quoted: I've been looking for 16" midlength gas system uppers or kits. I see that Sabre Defense has them. Sabre Defense M5 7.62x39 Are they available from anyone else? Thanks.

That upper is a bit pricey for my taste...

My 30-rd AR-7.62x30 Mags were shipped by C Products today, so I’ll have a range report as soon as I received them as I plan to go to the range that same day and burn up most of my ammo testing!

ArticWolf

Quoted: My 30-rd AR-7.62x30 Mags were shipped by C Products today, so I’ll have a range report as soon as I received them as I plan to go to the range that same day and burn up most of my ammo testing! ArticWolf

I really dislike you right now...

So has anybody got their hands on an ArmaLite M15A4 7.62 X 39 (only chrome lined one I know of) yet?

I've got the new Armalite on order. They're chrome lined and supposed to ship this month (June). Complete rifles only at this time according to Armalite.

Kerry

Let us know what you think Kerry. I like my Model 1, but I am tempted.

Quoted: I really dislike you right now...

Well you are going to really hate me now.  I have completed my 1st field test of Larry's 30-rd AR-7.62x39 Mags and IMHO, I think the have done it!

ArticWolf

Quoted: Well you are going to really hate me now.  I have completed my 1st field test of Larry's 30-rd AR-7.62x39 Mags and IMHO, I think the have done it! ArticWolf

Post videos or it didn't happen!  

Quoted: Post videos or it didn't happen!

LMAO, I have a AR-15 to clean tonight, brass to clean and a ton of reloading to do before I get to that point!  I was able to place camo wrap on on of the AR-7.62x39 Mags and it works great...

ArticWolf

Is it true that the ar47 is out of production...?

www.ar-47.com/index.html

Just back from the desert in +115F temps shooting Winchester/Wolf ammo and getting it on camera.  Have some editing to do and will let you know where to view it by Tuesday.  Talk about hot action!  

ArticWolf

Quoted: Is it true that the ar47 is out of production...? www.ar-47.com/index.html

I'd like to find an AR47 lower and I've been looking at that website too...  scary part is the lack of a phone number... but atleast they tell you that upfront...

I've looked at the MGI, but I just can't bring myself to pull the trigger on about $800 worth of lower...  I'm dumb, but not that far gone... yet.

Quoted: Post videos or it didn't happen!

Sunday I completed my 2nd high temperature test (+115°F in shade) in direct sunlight.  Trust me you don’t stand out there very long.  I had preloaded on C Products AR-7.62x39 Mag with Wolf Military Classic FMJ/HP, and standard Wolf HP.  I loaded the others after all were left in direct sunlight.

All Mags got too hot to hold in the palm of your hand.  I have shot a video of Winchester 123gr FMJ in one AR-7.62x39 Mag with the following AR-7.62x39 Mag loaded with the Wolf Ammo.  This is the 1st time that I have used the Wolf Military Classic Ammo.  I can now understand the dislike for its poor performance as I had one round with too light a load of powder that caused one round not to cycle.

I am VERY pleased with the UNIFORMED performance of these CP AR-7.62x39 Mags!  On the one FTF, I could feel that the bolt had failed to fully cycle without looking.  I have found that I can feel the uniform performance of rifle, mag, and ammo with a solid locking on the 30-th round!  Would I take this combination into combat?  The answer is a resounding YES!  

ArticWolf

I have posted my High Temperature Test video for those that would like to view it!  You can see that I had good luck with Wolf ammo (less one light power load) in both FMJ and HP.  Now I can go back to shooting in the cool of the day!

C Products 30-rd AR-7.62x39 Mags

ArticWolf

Quoted: I have posted my High Temperature Test video for those that would like to view it!  You can see that I had good luck with Wolf ammo (less one light power load) in both FMJ and HP.  Now I can go back to shooting in the cool of the day! C Products 30-rd AR-7.62x39 Mags ArticWolf

wooo someone finally posting a pic or vid. Mag doesn't look as big in the vid as it does in the pics I've seen.

Looks like the mag inserts easy enough without any rocking, your second mag went in smooth.

I was starting to think no one really had any of these yet since there wasn't any "hard" evidence.

I know I've seen a better pic somewhere, but this is the magazine you guys need.

Quoted: I know I've seen a better pic somewhere, but this is the magazine you guys need. abbildung.sw-schutz.com/misc/BananaClip.jpg

ROTFLMFAO!  

Ya should have used a "green" banana to blend into the background PB!  This aside, I LOVE the pic. THANKS!

ArticWolf

Glad to see the new c-products mags actually work!

HEy guys,

New to this forum.

I built a 7.62x39 upper about two years ago.  I purchased a few of the first generation 6.5 grendel mags from c products to see if they would work.  They actually do work though the gentleman at C Prod said they had problems with them and did not guarantee it.

The biggest thing was that it only loaded 22 to 24 rounds and you had to raise the front part of the feed lips as the rounds tended to nose dive into the front of the mag.  I fired probbaly 500-600 rounds thru these mags to get them to work with 100% reliability.  I had 100% reliability in firing with Winchester ammo and probably 1 round in 20-30 where it was a light primer hit with OLD green box NOrinco ammo (it was given to me).  At teh time I was unaware of the primer issues witht he import ammo.

I'm in the mood to build another project carbine (I had traded the upper for a .223 upper about a year ago) since I've aquired a  Stag Arms lower recently.  

The upper I had was a Model 1 and I was impressed with the quaility for the price.  Since I found this thread I've been looking at options.

1) M-4 profile not because "they are cool" but because my wife might be carrying it if the SHTF.  Im not sure of the quiality of the M-4 barrel I found.  Any input?

2) Definitely a 16" A3 with a Cav Arms A1 rear sight.  My wifes current AR15 has an Colt A1 upper and shes happy with it (hell on a good day she's a better shot than I am).  

3) Compact 3-9x40 scope.

4) Improved flashhider (Vortex or Phantom 5/8"x24 thread).

5) Handfull of C Prod mags.

6) Pigtail gas tube?  Thoughts?  Never had any problems with regular gas tube but been thinking about it.  All my "field experience" with ARs is as my patrol rifle in my car.  

Any more suggestions?