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Posted: 11/29/2007 3:14:06 PM EDT
2 thousand bucks (give or take) to spend on .308: AR10T or LR308+FAL?
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Posted: 11/29/2007 3:16:58 PM EDT
[#1]
man, thats a hard choice. I have a FAL and love it, but I would want the AR10T too. Sorry I can't help
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Posted: 11/29/2007 3:20:54 PM EDT
[#2]
what would you use it for?
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Posted: 11/29/2007 3:26:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Shootin n' stuff...  ...killin' paper targets...I hate paper targets. That and sitting in my safe. What else are these things made for? |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 3:29:09 PM EDT
[#4]
LR-308+FAL and have no regrets. I have a dpms 308, i had an ar-10t, and i like the dpms better.
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Posted: 11/29/2007 3:58:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Wow, what about buying 1 and $1000 worth of ammo. since you're a paper shooter the dpms would shoot better than the fal. Na, hell go for the gusto get the AR10 it will look perty in the safe |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 4:00:14 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 11/29/2007 4:02:57 PM EDT
[#7]
$2k for a factory AR-10(T)?
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Posted: 11/29/2007 4:22:18 PM EDT
[#8]
What should I expect to pay? I have seen 1800-1900 new... |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 4:40:32 PM EDT
[#9]
thats the same i have seen
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Posted: 11/29/2007 4:51:57 PM EDT
[#10]
Seems high at that price. @ $2200 you can get a GAP AR-10.
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Posted: 11/29/2007 5:16:08 PM EDT
[#11]
Where oh where can I get one new for less than 1800?  |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 5:32:34 PM EDT
[#12]
You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could Deep Piles of Menstruated Scum possibly beat an ARMALITE? Even the rifle that "won" the .gov SASS contract didn't "beat" the ARMALITE entry. Come back when you're worthy. 
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Posted: 11/29/2007 5:33:13 PM EDT
[#13]
retail $2126. If you can find 1 less than $1800 I'd jump on it.
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Posted: 11/29/2007 5:46:39 PM EDT
[#14]
here are two armalite ar10T's one for 1300, and the other for 1600, really they are not that hard to come by for around those prices. go for the armalite and dont look back, its a much more refined weapon
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=120&t=491213 www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=120&t=491213 |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 6:07:36 PM EDT
[#15]
Had a ar10t have a dpms 308 sass it shoots better, fits me better has better mags (oh im sorry armalite finally fixed that) I was not sure about my choice since i had a 10t and did like it but it LEFT ME WANTING something just a bit different and after i got my sass and put it through its paces it was the right choice for me. Not saying armalite is not a fine weapon, but I prefer the dpms! If you have had both and disagree that doesnt hurt my feelings.
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Posted: 11/29/2007 6:23:12 PM EDT
[#16]
I saw those...they are not new. Perhaps I should be less skeptical of used buys (only driven by my grandma to church). |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 6:30:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Don't you mean "Don't Purchase My Sh*t?" or "Doesn't Pass Miltary Specs?"  There do seem to be a lot of happy DPMS .308 owners out there to write off this product...and the idea of pairing it with a FAL for the same money (or ballpark money)?...  |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 6:35:21 PM EDT
[#18]
A novel idea would be to make up your own mind, and save the drama of a thread comparing the same things over and over again.
There are probably at least 50 threads on this EXACT subject. It's old and tired. If you like cast and extruded AR's, knock yourself out. All my AR's are forged. Including the one in 7.62 NATO... 
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Posted: 11/29/2007 6:35:36 PM EDT
[#19]
I got my DPMS AP4 for under a grand. Brand new, case, 2 mags, cleaning kit. It is a "great" rifle for the money.
I don't own an Armalite, but have plans to in the not so distant future. |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 6:42:35 PM EDT
[#20]
I cannot find a thread that compares a purchse of an AR10T vs. a LR308 + a FAL for $2k...was kind of an interesting (and I thought, novel) question to me. Please provide the links to the prior threads on this 2 gun vs. 1 gun comparison...I'll study them carefully.  Also, what would I do with my time if I was not reading redundant threads here?
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Posted: 11/29/2007 6:49:48 PM EDT
[#21]
Or you could put 1/2 of that $ in a high interest savings account, and wait on the RRA model to come out....By the time it comes out, you will probably have enough money in interest to at least buy your first batch of ammo.
And I am 100% postitive the RRA product will be an excellent weapon. Just a long wait before you can get one. |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 6:55:39 PM EDT
[#22]
Thats why I said have no regrets. A fine rifle PLUS a FAL!
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Posted: 11/29/2007 7:21:34 PM EDT
[#23]
As I said, if you like cast/extruded AR's, go for the two gun option. I've always been intrigued by the guys who will buy cast & extruded AR's, but absolutely INSIST on having the M4 ramped 1:7 4150 barrel, "F" FSB, MPC bolt and carrier, and milspec receiver extension... I look at the DPMS product the same way. It's got a decent SS barrel and a decent 19rd mag. I just can't bring myself to throw $900 on a base rifle that I know is built using an inferior method in the world of AR's. If I am going to build something like a .308 AR, I'd like to start with a solid foundation. Cast and extruded ain't it. If you like it, rock on!! 
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Posted: 11/29/2007 7:53:29 PM EDT
[#24]
What was better if you don't mind? ETA I see you answered it above. Does the SASS have a CM 18" barrel? |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 8:16:44 PM EDT
[#25]
Yes it does
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Posted: 11/29/2007 10:17:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Amen! Preach on brother! There is a sticky or at least there was in the AR-10 section showing the comparisons of the .308 AR caliber rifles. Also like Shivan said I would get an AR-10 from GAP,they make some of the best rifles around! I would have went that route but I picked up a NIB AR-10T for $1350.00 and once I shoot this barrel out it will be going to GAP for a Schnieder 5P!! |
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Posted: 11/29/2007 10:36:35 PM EDT
[#27]
For $2.000.00, I would buy a pre-ban Belgian FAL or German HK-91 - you could find a really nice one with a little patience. My friend has an AR10 - and does not like it. I have both a FAL and 91 and I am telling you they are both battle proven, indestructible and totally awesome! My opinion, Mike
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Posted: 11/30/2007 3:14:32 AM EDT
[#28]
in the world of the AR, i really would not worry if they were new or not, the AR is a incredibly easy platform to troubleshoot and basically repair and or build.
my advice, get the used one thus saving 700 dollars over new, sned it to armalite to take advantage of there upgrade program for less then 100 dollars and your are going to have ar10T built by the factory to the latest specs with the money saved buy a nice luepold and your ready to go |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 4:14:13 AM EDT
[#29]
Exactually how many problems have you had with a cast receiver AR 15 or AR 10 ? Even with someone using a too hot reload or mom and pop companies producing receivers out of spec there are very few issues with AR's. The design of the rifle is such that a cast receiver vs forged is of minimal importance as long as it made in spec. There are many reason to have other componets improved in particular the barrel and barrel extension as they are the heart of the AR 15. That said of the choices listed buy the LR and high quality glass - skip the FAL. |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 4:23:46 AM EDT
[#30]
Enough said/ |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 6:56:18 AM EDT
[#31]
I don't buy cast AR's, and AR-10's are not available as cast/extruded. So my problems with cast AR's could NEVER be higher than zero. There are many people who have had problems with them. They fracture and fatigue easier than their forged counterparts. Ever wonder why Essential Arms, some Oly Arms, and some PWA AR's are not in high demand anywhere other than ban states?? Here's a clue --> they are cast. If you like cast AR's, then buy the hell out of them. Ask for an opinion, get an opinion. Unfortunately, cast vs. forged is not merely an opinion, it's pretty much a fact that forged is better. If you are a "good enough"-type buyer, then buy the "good enough" and be happy. Chrome-moly is "good enough". 19rds is "good enough". Cast AR's are "good enough". Three year warranties are "good enough". MIM is "good enough". 1:9 is "good enough". .380 is "good enough". 55gr is "good enough". Tasco is "good enough". Promags are "good enough". I try to buy the best, where I can. |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 5:26:07 PM EDT
[#32]
DPMS 308's don't use cast parts. The receivers are extruded, and I'm not sure if you're familiar with the process, but extrusions aren't exactly bad. Now if you want to argue that stampings and castings are dated and unworthy, I'll agree. But calling the quality of a rifle out because it's extruded is blowing things a bit out of proportion.
I'm looking forward to the Masada and the SCAR rifles in all of their extruded glory too. If I was in a gun store and heard someone say "menstruated dumpster" or what ever the hell that guy said on page one, I'd probably throw you out myself. If this were my site, I'd ban you. Not for bashing an industry partner, not for calling out the quality of a rifle you've never owned, but for acting like an immature little douche bag to a guy who is seeking honest advice. Seriously, I know a lot of you guys are biased, but at least have some fucking speck of maturity before you spew worthless gibberish out to a guy looking to spend a decent chunk of change. I'd go with the DPMS for paper punching myself. I like the forward assist, I like the SR25 magazines, and I like the cost, but their non stainless barrel choices are lacking. On the other hand, I personally wouldn't own a 308 with out a stainless barrel, but that's just my sole preference. Wilson really seems to be on their A game when they make DPMS's 308 stainless barrels too. I've read a few claims of sub half MOA performance with factory loaded ammo, which is damn good by my standards. |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 6:13:59 PM EDT
[#33]
Interesting. Some sources don't agree with the common "intel" on DPMS. Depending on what model, and what date it was produced, there are most certainly cast DPMS LR308 parts, including uppers.
Then they changed to extruded, but some people mistook the change from cast to extruded as being cast to forged. So people started thinking they were forging, and they aren't for everything. Polymer extrusions are not quite the same as aluminum, so the SCAR and Masada comparisons are fatally flawed. In the world of AR's, 5.56 and 7.62, the superior method of construction is forging them. Not casting; not extruding. If you like "good enough", buy the DPMS. It's cool, just be honest with yourself and with us. The folks buying the DPMS are buying it because it's CHEAP, and "good enough". Ironically, the same folks who swear, or swore, they would NEVER buy DPMS AR-15 parts, DPMS AR's or anything from DPMS suddenly have this affinity for DPMS because they have a cheap .308 AR that gets them closer to having an SR-25 they've dreamed about for years... |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 7:59:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Shivan,
Yes, extruded is. metallurgically speaking, poorer than forged. In all reality the difference between Extruded and Forged will not show in a properly built and maintained AR platform weapon. I have both extruded receivers and forged. I shoot more than lots of people on this board do (or so I imagine - ~2.5k rds a month whether pistol or rifle + a bunch of shotgun.) I have had no problems with my extruded receivers nor with my forged receivers. I have been shooting both types for more than 7 years each(same receivers throughout). All that aside, I do have an honest question that I would like your answer to: What about the DPMS LR-308 Lower is bad? It is Machined from a solid Billet. If this is poor quality, does that make the POF .308 lower also poor quality? Or is your point about the upper receivers? I am not trying to pick a fight, or cause any problems. Just asking a question or two. Thanks |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 8:21:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Right, it's "good enough". If it doesn't matter, metallurgically, or practically speaking then why do we have forged? Why do all the best makers use forged? Why does the military specify forged? Based on your questions, and the background given, you know why. So there's not a whole lot of point discussing it. We agree that cast or extruded does not equate to forged. In fact, it's an inferior process. That's all. If we all agree it's inferior, then my point is done being proven without belaboring it for 10 more pages. |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 8:25:08 PM EDT
[#36]
I bought a Titan from Fulton Armory.
I'm very very happy YMMV |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 5:56:50 AM EDT
[#37]
I understand all that. I was not debating that, I was actually asking as different question. Is the DPMS lower a poor quality part? It is machined from a solid billet of aluminum. If this is poor quality, do you think that the POF lower is poor quality? I do not want to belabor this point for 10 pages, I just have a question about your opinion on the DPMS LR-308 lower. I know the upper is extruded. THanks |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 6:54:24 AM EDT
[#38]
Its simple-forging is better, Armalite lower is forged DPMS is not. =(you fill in the rest here)______ Will you ever need that "extra". I don't know, but I sure as hell don't want to ever find out. Another DPMS vs Amalite thread Armalite offers in its basic rifles, what DPMS does not. Some people will pay extra for the quality, others wont. Its a personal decision based on the role of the weapon in your arsenal. If you dont need a better barrel/chrome/forged componets/ better triggers then get the DPMS, shoot it and post pics. |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 7:25:50 AM EDT
[#39]
YAWN
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Posted: 12/1/2007 7:39:08 AM EDT
[#40]
Same here, I don't know why people poo-poo the DPMS stuff so much. Those are some hard-working guns. |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 7:46:17 AM EDT
[#41]
I believe I said the same thing on 11/29 @ 10:35pm, in this very thread, on the first page... How many times does this thread need to be done?? I especially like the threads where everyone says to get a particular item, like an FAL for example, and then the guy posts pics of his new Springer SOCOM 16.  Point is, buy what the hell you want and say that's why you bought it. I bought the ArmaLite for the lifetime warranty. No other feature was as important to me as that, the other great features were just gravy... If a $900 price tage is the most important thing, then buy the DPMS LR308, and say that's why you bought it. |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 7:48:48 AM EDT
[#42]
I got tired of buying AR parts that wouldn't work, or didn't fit, on quality AR's. Historically speaking, there are 1,000's of people who wouldn't own ANYTHING AR-15 related from DPMS who suddenly forget their history when DPMS came out with the LR308. It was the weirdest phenomenon I'd ever seen in gun buying decisions... |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 8:19:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Funny how this thread seems have to focused in to become only a DPMS vs. Armalite forged vs. cast vs. extruded etc. thread.
That was not the original question, although clearly those issues are part of the picture. The question was this: For $2000 on the table, what is the better trade: 1) an AR10T OR 2) an LR308 *and* a FAL? Intended just to be an interesting/provocative question about relative value (expressed as opinions among interested parties with diverse perspectives/situations...not writing wikipedia here!) OP disclaimer/disclosures: No opinions will accepted as contractually binding for a purchase decision on my part. I may not buy either, or I may already own both. Please be nice, or so help me, I'll start an AK vs. AR thread!! |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 9:07:08 AM EDT
[#44]
Its look like you got what you asked for. Relative value = a "vs." thread |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 9:28:08 AM EDT
[#45]
...moved to page three to get out of the fray...
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Posted: 12/1/2007 12:21:04 PM EDT
[#46]
The SCAR and Masada receivers are not made from polymer, but extruded aluminum. I think you have extruding mixed up with something else. Extruding is simply an alternate method of forging, be it a bit archaic. Rather than being drop or hammer forged like most modern products, extrusions are billet pieces forced through a die with the basic shape of the end product. IE; it's a die forging. For instance, I beams, heavy pipes, and rail road tracks are often extruded. The strength differences between extrusions and forgings are a moot point in small arms. Just like billet versus a forging as well. Is a drop or hammer forging stronger? A little bit, but not enough that it will ever matter for a receiver under any circumstances. You are correct about castings. DPMS' stainless steel uppers are cast. What's wrong with liking SR25 magazines? They're the military standard and the DPMS models are much cheaper than any other properly functioning 308 AR magazine. I think it's a bit childish to say all people that prefer the DPMS are buying them to be SR25 wannabes. By that logic, the AR10 is an SR25 wannabe too seeing as the majority of it's features are borrowed from the SR25 rather than the original patterned AR10. And for the record, I honestly do believe that DPMS has higher standards for their 308 rifles than their 5.56 rifles. That's just my opinion based on my experience with the actual rifles though. |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 1:31:32 PM EDT
[#47]
What I find childish is the fundamental lack of reading comprehension. If you can please quote any passage where I called the DPMS a "wannabe". I never used that term, despite what you honestly feel deep down about their offerings. What I said is that the people buying DPMS want an SR-25, but they don't want to pay for it. In fact, they can't even rationalize the price tag of a GAP AR-10. So they low ball it, then try to rationalize it. Here's a newsflash for you, I don't care if the ArmaLite AR-10 is a copy of the SR-25. Right down to the last roll pin. I really don't. In fact, that would probably be good for sales. People who who DPMS LR308's and AP4's get their feelings hurt when people tell them the truth. It's a low budget, lower quality, ECONOMY .308 AR. It's the "Savage" of the .308 AR world. They haven't been honest with themselves that they bought it due to PRICE. When someone lists a feature it doesn't have, the owner of the DPMS tried to defend the shortcoming. Whereas it is a pretty cut and dry issue. Yes, a $400 Savage may shoot a 3/8 MOA group the same as a GAP Crusader, but at the end of the day the guy who owns the Crusader isn't going to be all hurt about being told that he's got a cheap stock, loose action, standard grade barrel, cast bottom metal, etc, etc... Lastly, all the outside comparisons to other types of industries that use extrusions is great! Except they aren't AR's, and therefore have no basis for comparison. Obfuscating the issue doesn't change the fact that the top makers of AR's use forged material. Not cast; not extruded. Again while the shell of the Masada may be extruded aluminum it has a steel trunnion and steel internal receiver rails. Last I checked, an extruded DPMS upper has no steel in it. Magpul is using an extrusion as a SHELL to house a steel internal skeleton. Which seems logical to me based on their experience in extruded polymers. |
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Posted: 12/1/2007 2:12:56 PM EDT
[#48]
There's no need for you to get belligerent even if you are playing smoke and mirrors. I never insulted you, so don't have another massive hissy fit where you make yourself look like a whack job again Ed. Tell me one example of a DPMS extruded upper failing because it's extruded. Hell prove to me that any DPMS 308 upper receiver has ever failed. Didn't think so. You can bash, talk shit, and blow a gasket all you want. In the end, you're still just splitting hairs to justify your own bias towards a brand you're loyal to. Oh, and don't bother with the Mil Spec BS, the arguing of semantics, and the putting words into people's mouthes this go round. The facts are you don't own a DPMS, you have no justification for your bashing of their quality (other than trashing on extrusions which you don't know a damn thing about), and you can't come up with any examples of these so called quality issues that are blatantly fictitious every where but your own mind. This is a technical forum, and it's not the place to make stuff up and draw conclusions that have absolutely no factual basis in the real world. By the way, I haven't seen any loose, sloppy, cast, cheap stock DPMS 308's yet. 3/8 MOA is 3/8 MOA no matter how you slice it, and only in your mind does the brand name have an effect on how any firearm shoots. 
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Posted: 12/1/2007 3:24:13 PM EDT
[#49]
Isnt that what your doing? Another thread down the toilet
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Posted: 12/1/2007 3:53:06 PM EDT
[#50]
I didn't cast the first stone, and arguing with that certain person is nothing new to me. Been there and done that, and I know exactly how this will pan out. I never trashed Armalite in this thread either. Instead I gave the original poster an honest opinion on why I think he should consider the DPMS rifles. I didn't have to shit on any other company in the process, and I didn't have to make anything up. And I took this thread down the toilet? I hope you don't think that, seeing as the bullshit like "Dumpster Trash" and other childish crap on the first page wasn't exactly the peak of productivity and civility.  |
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