Pending Staff Review.

--OverBored

I recently got me one of them new Alexander Arms Tactical 16s, with some modifications, and thought you guys might want to see it. I've only shot it at 25 yards with the iron sights so far, but it's the best iron-sight shooting I've ever done. That ain't sayin' much, I know! (Grouped half inch or so in the bulls-eye, and I got pretty good at picking off empty shotgun shells, too!) I've got a feeling it's going to be a shooter!

I'm kind of a minimalist when it comes to most things, including guns, so I hope to keep this one as simple and clean as possible. Might not be able to resist a VFG, but, in general, if it's not going to help me in a Search & Destroy mission against Bambi Cong, I probably won't add it!

First up are left and right "mugshots." I've got a Midwest Industries mid-length, free-floated railed handguard on it with Magpul ladder rail protectors on the sides and a Magpul XT rail panel on the bottom. I like the solid rail panel on the bottom because it's more comfortable; I feel that panels on the sides would make the grip too fat.





Next is a view showing the Troy Industries flip-up rear sight, among other things, such as the Falcon Industries Ergo pistol grip. When I get the money, I plan on mounting something like a 4-12x40 scope on it (haven't decided which yet) in a LaRue Tactical SPR quick-detach mount. I suppose I could steal the Nikon off my Sako, but I'm in no hurry since I'm out of frickin' ammo!



Here's a view through the sights out my living room window. Thought it was kind of interesting.



Note the F-marked front sight tower. The Midwest Industries rails are rock-solid, no play at all; I like 'em. Nicely machined; very good stuff for the money.



I've got an Vltor Clubfoot stock in coyote brown, as with all the furniture. Love the ample cheek weld with the storage compartments attached. Note the hole on the top which allows you to see the number of the position you've set the stock at.



And finally, what would some photos of a 6.5 Grendel rifle be without also showing a few rounds of the World's Best Assault Rifle Cartridge?



Hope you enjoyed these! More to come when I get it scoped.

John

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6.5 Grendel: Soul of an AR10; Body of an AR15

Very, very nice.....and then some!

I keep eatin my heart out with all this teasin. I already own two factory Colt  M4's and just can't use another 16" M4 on top of that. (I keep telling myself anyway)

It sounds like your iron sight shooting is good bit better then what either of my Colts can do with a scope! But, from what everybody has been reporting, this doesn't surprise me either.

Cograts on a nice addition to your collection.

Very nice rifle!

I love the picture that shows the ammo.  Very Cool!

Any updates on the Wolf ammo?  Brass?

Drooling..... Very nice!

Drooling..... Very nice!

height=8

Originally Posted By CTT2: height=8 Originally Posted By Rcd567: I'm watching with interest what Wolf does.  Checking with MidwayUSA and Natchez, it seems that the cost of a 1000 brass casings is about as expensive as buying the upper.(?)hock.gif I'm looking for another caliber of AR and am debating between the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.8 SPC.  Neither is going to be cheap to shoot, but currently the 6.8 has a large advantage in available brass/bullets.  I reload so it's not a huge deal until you check the prices.hing Is there a cheaper source for components? .   I'm a 6.8 SPC guy, if your going for long range 400+ get the Grendel it has way better energy retention at those ranges.  Right now the ammo for 6.8 SPC out of a 16" barrel is 2500-2600, lower than what was originally stated as 2700+.  I wish they revise the SAAMI specs so it really can shoot 2700+ reliably.  But that's for another discussion.

Wolf sent ammo to Bill Alexander for testing - he asked for cleaner burning powder and a bit more velocity.  Wolf release to stores in now likely in the January time frame.

Remington 6.8 SPC factory ammo is now loaded to 2625 ft/sec from a 24" barrel (see Remington ammunition comparison on their web site www.remington.com).  This means that 16" barrel velocitys are more likely to be in the 2400 ft/sec range with factory ammo.

Manufacturers use test barrels often not attached to a standard receiver - Remington uses 24" barrels for their testing except for one case as listed in a different caliber.

Forest, you likely have the older Remington 6.8 factory ammo that was loaded to higher pressures - it should still be on many store shelves until the new stuff gets there (your velocity figure indicates the older load).  Remington changed loading due to pressure problems in some platforms.  You will likely need to handload or use other than Remington ammo to get higher velocities in the future.

Alexander Arms factory ammo for the 6.5 Grendel, on the other hand, has always been loaded to 48,000 - 49,000 compared to Remington's 55,000.  

The 6.5 Grendel spits out the Factory loaded 123gr Scenar at 2620 fps from a 24" barrel.
123gr Scenar from 14.5" barrel is 2428 fps (not much loss).
Factory loaded 129gr SSTs are averaging 2650 fps from a 28" barrel.
Factory loaded 90gr TNTs are 2880 fps from 24" and 2936 fps from 28".

Forest, I'm guessing Remington could give you batch numbers or what differences they made in packaging.

Not sure on 129SST terminal performance data - there is gel testing data on the 123 SMK with impact at 2385 fps (6.5 Grendel 14.5" tactical at 50 yards) yawed and fragmented after 2" penetration.  
Link: Grendel Gel Test Thread
120 Norma FMJ, 120 SMK, and 90 TNT were also tested.

A member at www.65grendel.com also took a 175lb feral hog with the 129SST at 150 yards.  One shot through the lungs, hog ran 6 ft and dropped.
Link: 6.5 Grendel 129SST against Wild Hog

Another member took an Elk at 150 yards with a Barnes 130gr TSX.
Link: 6.5 Grendel 130gr TSX against Elk

What kind of powder impact are you getting with the 130s in the 6.8?  Grain capacity? Velocity?

The 129 SSTs are flying nice and speedy out of the 6.5 Grendel up to 2550 depending on barrel and powder.  

Some of the 130 range bullets are having an impact on powder capacity for the Grendel depending on bullet design.  The Hornandy 129 SST in 6.5mm is the same length as the Lapua 144gr FMJBT in 6.5...both have some impact on powder capacity.  Based on 6.8 SPC case design, I would imagine the 130s have a greater impact on powder capacity.

The February 2005 "Shooting Times, Special Reloading Issue" has an article by David Fortier with 35 loads for the 6.5 Grendel.  Unfortunately, there seems to be no online copy of the article - backissue order seems to be the only means for getting copies.

One load I plan to try since I have 120gr Sierra MatchKings on hand is the following:

24" Barrel 6.5 Grendel, 1:8-inch twist, 10 rounds
120gr SMK
31.5gr AA2520
OAL 2.26"
Muzzle Velocity 2721 fps
Extreme spread 21 fps
Standard deviation 8 fps

...of course always work up to loadings in your rifle.

I havn't talked single loaded 6.5 Grendel at all.  The bolt action guys at www.65grendel.com are the ones to ask about single loading.  

You can get 3000+ fps from the Grendel with the long loads.

Another interesting load:
Grendel Van Buren Load Link
28" 6.5 Grendel at 200 yards with peep sights
Bullet: Norma 130gr
Powder: 30gr H335
OAL: 2.415" (long load)
Velocity: 2700 fps
Accuracy: 3 shots 0.5" at 200 yards This guy is a strong competitor.

With the Grendel, you don't gain as much going from 24" to 28" - only 5 to 8 fps per inch.

Originally Posted By Forest: It does have an impact on powder capacity.  Right now I've got some test loads ready to go loaded with 22.5 to 24.0 gr of H322 in 0.5gr increments.  I'm hoping to get a chance to shoot them over the weekend.  QuickLoad predicts somewhere in the 2200-2300fps from a 16" barrel.  Only the PRI magazines will feed this round (and just barely).

I noted over at the other thread that individual tests achieving the 2300 fps you mention for the 6.8 SPC above are "high pressure" loads for the AR approaching 55,000.

All the loads I have quoted for the 6.5 Grendel are actual tested loads without pressure signs, not load program estimates.  ...always work up to loads for your individual rifle - each individual rifle can behave differently.

There is a thread over at 65grendel.com right now where someone loaded hot and blew out the bottom of his magazine as well as shearing off his cartridge neck which remained stuck in the chamber...otherwise he and the rifle are ok.  Just a reminder to never jump into maximum load estimates based on a program alone!!!  Always work up to your maximum loads.

With 6.5 Grendel Bolt action guns, the case capacity and ability to go up to higher pressures (65,000 psi) that would destroy an AR, allow much higher velocities for long range competition.

3200+ fps has been reported for 6.5 Grendel in a bolt action while maintaining accuracy.

Originally Posted By Reginhild: With 6.5 Grendel Bolt action guns, the case capacity and ability to go up to higher pressures (65,000 psi) that would destroy an AR, allow much higher velocities for long range competition. 3200+ fps has been reported for 6.5 Grendel in a bolt action while maintaining accuracy.

3200? Now that's pretty darn amazing!  I still haven't picked up a Grendel upper.  That project keeps getting pushed to the back burner.

Originally Posted By bolster: Originally Posted By Reginhild: With 6.5 Grendel Bolt action guns, the case capacity and ability to go up to higher pressures (65,000 psi) that would destroy an AR, allow much higher velocities for long range competition. 3200+ fps has been reported for 6.5 Grendel in a bolt action while maintaining accuracy. 3200? Now that's pretty darn amazing!  I still haven't picked up a Grendel upper.  That project keeps getting pushed to the back burner.

3200 fps is really not that amazing considering an 85gr 6.5 round is not much more than a 77gr 5.56 round.

Originally Posted By Reginhild: Originally Posted By bolster: Originally Posted By Reginhild: With 6.5 Grendel Bolt action guns, the case capacity and ability to go up to higher pressures (65,000 psi) that would destroy an AR, allow much higher velocities for long range competition. 3200+ fps has been reported for 6.5 Grendel in a bolt action while maintaining accuracy. 3200? Now that's pretty darn amazing!  I still haven't picked up a Grendel upper.  That project keeps getting pushed to the back burner. 3200 fps is really not that amazing considering an 85gr 6.5 round is not much more than a 77gr 5.56 round.

Oh- I was thinking this was the 129gr Scenar! 85 certainly changes it for me.  Now I'm almost depressed. J/K

More appropriate that this data posted in this "sticky" thread:

90 TNT, 30 gr. Benchmark
16" 2730 fps
14.5" 2660 fps

100 Scenar, 27.5 gr. Accurate 2460
16" 2597 fps
14.5" 2540 fps

123 Scenar Factory
16" 2472 fps
14.5" 2426 fps

129 SST, 29.0 gr. BL(C)-2
16" 2302 fps
14.5" 2267 fps

These are all pressure safe loadings published by AA.

Originally Posted By bolster: Originally Posted By Reginhild: Originally Posted By bolster: Originally Posted By Reginhild: With 6.5 Grendel Bolt action guns, the case capacity and ability to go up to higher pressures (65,000 psi) that would destroy an AR, allow much higher velocities for long range competition. 3200+ fps has been reported for 6.5 Grendel in a bolt action while maintaining accuracy. 3200? Now that's pretty darn amazing!  I still haven't picked up a Grendel upper.  That project keeps getting pushed to the back burner. 3200 fps is really not that amazing considering an 85gr 6.5 round is not much more than a 77gr 5.56 round. Oh- I was thinking this was the 129gr Scenar! 85 certainly changes it for me.  Now I'm almost depressed. J/K

I think you need a .264 Mag to drive 129 grain bullets at 3200 FPS Maybe a 6.5-06 AI at the least

What made you think 3200fps was a 129gr round in the first place????
That would be like a 6.8 SPC shooting a 130gr at 3000fps or
a 5.56 shooting a 77gr at 4000 fps!!!!!

The Grendel is capable but not to that extreme!  3200fps from 85gr and 3000+ fps from 90gr is possible...but the Grendel seems to like bullets in the 120gr range the best.

For more information on the 6.5 Grendel see the Wikipedia page at:

Link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_Grendel

Bill,
I have been trying to get you and John Noveske together on a barrel build project for his 17-4 18inch medium contour barrels. What does it take for him to get a reamer for a 50-100 barrel build?
Thanks,

Originally Posted By CQB_Steve: Bill, I have been trying to get you and John Noveske together on a barrel build project for his 17-4 18inch medium contour barrels. What does it take for him to get a reamer for a 50-100 barrel build? Thanks,

Midway lists the reamers

JFA

Originally Posted By Reginhild: For more information on the 6.5 Grendel see the Wikipedia page at: Link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_Grendel

Great info!

Thanks for the link.

Grendel brass is evidently finally in stock at Alexander Arms.  

Originally Posted By Reginhild: For more information on the 6.5 Grendel see the Wikipedia page at: Link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6.5_Grendel

Excellent summary and info.

Stephen

Just talked to AA and they are loading Factory ammo now

The 107gr Sierra Match King looks like the ideal bullet in this caliber to me -- personally I love it, and find it shoots exceptionally well. Can't be bothered to do any gel testing with it, but game results on javelina show it to be quite deadly (short neck and fragmentation), but not as explosive as the TNT or similar bullets in the 85-95gr category.

Seems to me that for "business" purposes in a 12-14" carbine the 107 would be hard to beat.

We will have to wait and see what Black Hills is loading in their 6.5 Grendel ammo - 107 SMK would be nice but many bets are currently on the 123gr SMK.  

...will see in a couple days at the Shot Show where the announcement is supposed to be made along with Les Baer's new 6.5 Grendel rifle.

I'm hoping Black Hills goes with the 123gr SMK or heavier since I plan onbuilding a long distance rig.

Of course, a wide selection of bullet weights would be the best!

Originally Posted By Sniper3142: I'm hoping Black Hills goes with the 123gr SMK or heavier since I plan onbuilding a long distance rig. Of course, a wide selection of bullet weights would be the best!

There was a leak before the shot show saying it is being loaded in the 123 SMK...havn't heard anything from the shot show though on other loads.

Originally Posted By Sniper3142: I'm hoping Black Hills goes with the 123gr SMK or heavier since I plan onbuilding a long distance rig. Of course, a wide selection of bullet weights would be the best!

IMO, don't go heavier.  The Grendel just does not have the boiler room to push heavier bullets effectively.  

From my testing, the most accurate mag length bullet is, without a doubt, the Berger 120.  

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger: Originally Posted By Sniper3142: I'm hoping Black Hills goes with the 123gr SMK or heavier since I plan onbuilding a long distance rig. Of course, a wide selection of bullet weights would be the best! IMO, don't go heavier.  The Grendel just does not have the boiler room to push heavier bullets effectively.   From my testing, the most accurate mag length bullet is, without a doubt, the Berger 120.

I'm sure you know Arne recomends the Lapua Scenar 108's.

Originally Posted By MudBug: Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger: Originally Posted By Sniper3142: I'm hoping Black Hills goes with the 123gr SMK or heavier since I plan onbuilding a long distance rig. Of course, a wide selection of bullet weights would be the best! IMO, don't go heavier.  The Grendel just does not have the boiler room to push heavier bullets effectively.   From my testing, the most accurate mag length bullet is, without a doubt, the Berger 120.   I'm sure you know Arne recommends the Lapua Scenar 108's.

Arne and I have been shooting together longer than the Grendel has existed.  We both recommend the Lapua 108 over the 123.  I have never figured why AA insists on loading the 123 when all our accuracy testing, which was shared with AA, shows the 108 to be the more consistently accurate bullet.  Chase the BC all you want, but on the paper out to 600 yards, the 108 is the better of the two bullets (at least at the velocity the Grendel can generate).    

In speaking directly with Lapua about their new 6.5x47, they told me they were having the best accuracy results at 300m & 600m with the 108 over the 123 as well.  The 108 is a great bullet, enough said.  

However, I have never seen, nor heard, Arne recommend the 108 over the Berger 120.  Keep in mind the 120 Berger has only been in production less than a year.  You might want to take a look and see when he recommended the 108s the last time...      

If you are shooting a Grendel, you are doing yourself a disservice by not at least trying the Berger 120s.  This bullet was designed from the ground up to be shot from a magazine and tolerate the jump.  The Scenars were NOT designed for this purpose.  

If I was still shooting a Grendel bolt gun, and could seat the bullets long, it would be the 108.  But, out of the AR platform and out of the magazine, my choice is easily the Berger.   Give the Bergers a try, and I'll bet you don't go back to the Lapuas.      

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger: However, I have never seen, nor heard, Arne recommend the 108 over the Berger 120.

I didn't say that. Just that he recomends them.

Originally Posted By MudBug: I'm sure you know Arne recommends the Lapua Scenar 108's.

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:  You might want to take a look and see when he recommended the 108s the last time...

 


Last week or so when I was talking to him about  my little chambering problem. Arne is a talkative fella (I'm sure you know that) and I got to hear lots of grendel tales.

Originally Posted By MudBug: Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger: However, I have never seen, nor heard, Arne recommend the 108 over the Berger 120. I didn't say that. Just that he recomends them. Originally Posted By MudBug: I'm sure you know Arne recommends the Lapua Scenar 108's. Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger:  You might want to take a look and see when he recommended the 108s the last time...     Last week or so when I was talking to him about  my little chambering problem. Arne is a talkative fella (I'm sure you know that) and I got to hear lots of grendel tales.

You, and Arne for that matter, should stick with the 108s.  

I will stick with the 120s.  

Remind me to ask him to shoot for $$ when we go shooting next weekend....

Originally Posted By MudBug: Last week or so when I was talking to him about  my little chambering problem. Arne is a talkative fella (I'm sure you know that)...

Also, he needs to spend less time talking and more time sorting brass correctly, if you know what I mean, Mudbug....    

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger: Originally Posted By MudBug: Last week or so when I was talking to him about  my little chambering problem. Arne is a talkative fella (I'm sure you know that)... Also, he needs to spend less time talking and more time sorting brass correctly, if you know what I mean, Mudbug....

LOL


I'll be sure to try the Berger 120's


I have the Lapua 108's on backorder at Brunos along with a bit of N133.

I only ordered a bit of the N133 because all the HP/BR/F Class shooters in the store seem to agree that for some reason it just doesn't work well here in AZ (don't ask me to explain it, I'm new to this). They see that it works well for lots of people, but here in AZ it's a bit off from the reports.

While you are waiting, along with the rest of the world, on the 133, pick up a jug of Benchmark and give it a try with the 108s.  

It worked slightly better for me than the 133, but both worked very well.  

Originally Posted By WalkerTexasRanger: While you are waiting, along with the rest of the world, on the 133, pick up a jug of Benchmark and give it a try with the 108s.   It worked slightly better for me than the 133, but both worked very well.

This?    LINK

Nope, this one:

www.brunoshooters.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=BSS&Product_Code=HBENCH-1

Hodgdon Benchmark

New info:

Wolf 123gr 6.5 Grendel ammo is in country (making its way from port to stores).  Available for pre-order at Cabelas for $10.99 a box.

www.swampworks.com is producing a 130gr 6.5mm JLK again due to praise and demand from 6.5 Grendel owners.

Hello,


We have tested bullet BC for one velocity level and it can be slightly different with lower velocities. We have not tested BCs for the 6.5 mm Greendel velocity area.


Best regards,


Nammo Lapua Infocenter

I got this when I ask Lapua about there B.C.'s

Thanks,Keith

Question on this 6.5
I am glad I found this site. I was 100% confident on the 300 whisper as my next purchase.
I can not locate a thread comparing these two options for the 223 replacement.
Anyone have any info that can make me decide between the two?

Originally Posted By mllm: Anyone have any info that can make me decide between the two?

MLLM, tell us more about what you want to do with this rifle and why you were initially considering the Whisper.

In the meantime, for more information on the 6.5 Grendel see the Forum section of my website.

John

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6.5 Grendel: Soul of an AR10; Body of an AR15