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Posted: 4/10/2006 5:27:04 PM EDT
[#1]
I did a bit of the same myself today, under the same conditions. My results are below in red.
LMT CHROME LINED 1X7" 14.5" M855......................2861 FPS LMT Chrome Lined 1:7 14.5" M855.....................2902fps NOVESKE S/S POLYGONAL 1X7" 16" M855:.............3004 FPS WOA Wilson 16" 1:7 M855:................................... 3021 LMT 16" 1:7 M855:................................... 2967 |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 5:51:41 PM EDT
[#2]
many thanks. It's good to see some real data. My conclusion is the poly rifling is worth about 1" of barrel. Others may come to different conclusions. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 5:53:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Was this a misprint? |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:04:40 PM EDT
[#4]
Good to see some real data finally. Thanks guys!
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:15:17 PM EDT
[#5]
No, why would you think its a misprint? |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:19:24 PM EDT
[#6]
Thanks for the info guys. Question for both of you: Are these numbers averages of X number of rounds?
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:21:52 PM EDT
[#7]
my shots are the average of 10 shots. Chrony 10' from muzzle. 55-60 degrees. Approx. 650ft elevation date from today is as follows:
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:35:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks to both of you for the info.
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:36:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Thanks Steve...definately some interesting data. According to Wes' results, there is only a 190 FPS advantage between the Noveske 12.5" and LMT 18" with M855. Sounds like 5.5" of barrel that some would be more than happy to sacrifice.
Just as interesting is your finding that the WOA Wilson 16" out-performed the Noveske 16" in terms of velocity, though I imagine the small difference (17 FPS) could be attributed to differences in the M855 ammo that you each shot. ETA: What is the difference between the Noveske and the WOA? |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:41:07 PM EDT
[#10]
Any data for the 14.5" afghan barrel???
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:45:14 PM EDT
[#11]
A different LOT of ammo may show different results, but it proves to me(what I already know from years ago) that poly barrels do NOT give any measurable increased velocity. Tighter match grade barrels/chambers, obviously get a bit more velocity regardless the rifling. The "Noveske" is NOT a barrel. John Noveske is a gun smith who contours and chambers Pac-Nor barrels. My barrel is a Wilson, with standard rifling, contoured and chambered by John Holliger. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:48:15 PM EDT
[#12]
FORMERLY CORRECT.
RECENT CHANGE: NOVESKE IS NOW A BARRELMAKER, AS WELL. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:48:20 PM EDT
[#13]
What does that mean by contour and chambering them? |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:58:23 PM EDT
[#14]
Roger that, I know who John is...I should have been more specific in my description. Wes, can you elaborate on your "barelmaker" statement...what's John working on over there in Grants Pass? |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 7:12:47 PM EDT
[#15]
NOVESKE IS MAKING HIS OWN BARRELS, WITH HIS OWN SPEC STEEL.
THAT'S ALL I KNOW. IT'S ALL I NEED TO KNOW. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 7:38:09 PM EDT
[#16]
Thank you both for the velocity data. Any chance you could edit your post and add the chamber type to each barrel? 5.56mm, Wylde, .223, etc.
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Posted: 4/10/2006 8:25:04 PM EDT
[#17]
Wow! I'm surprised there was no fanfair in this regard. I'm not sure how one improves on PacNor "steel", but regardless, this is a big step. As one of the good guys, I wish him the best, and hope we get an opportunity to talk shop soon. This is a very interesting occurance. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 1:46:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Seconding, i'd be really interested in how the 14.5 afghan clocks in compared to 14.5 and 16" sticks. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:54:37 AM EDT
[#19]
Basically what he would start out with would be a barrel blank that's bored and rifled for .224 caliber all the way through. It's also much larger in profile than desired. Given that's his "raw"product, he needs to ream the chamber and then turning the profile of the outside of the barel, both operations are performed on a lathe. He would also have to cut the barrel threads and drill the port if I'm not mistaken. That doesn't sound like much but the chamber reaming and thread turning are critical for the final product to turn out. You can spend big bucks on a good blank, but a poor gunsmith can trash it by doing a hack chambering job. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 5:07:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Any CHRONY distances for these figures?
Looks like one at 10' and one at 15'......, just wondering. Mike |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 7:57:26 AM EDT
[#21]
I would like to know exactly why someone would find PacNor (or Douglas, or Krieger, or Boots, or any other established barrel maker with decades of experience building match grade tubes, not to mention the out of print, custom equipment) not up to some magic "SPEC." I don't know why anyone would consider this change as a good thing on faith alone. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 8:20:39 AM EDT
[#22]
Interesting point. I kind of thought the same when I read the announcement above. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 8:59:34 AM EDT
[#23]
Marketing |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 9:14:37 AM EDT
[#24]
IF YOU WERE GOING TO GO INTO THE BARRELMAKING BUSINESS, YOU SAYING YOU WOULD NOT WANT TO SPECIFY EXACTLY WHAT RAW MATERIALS WERE USED TO MAKE YOUR BARRELS?
I DON'T CALL IT "MARKETING" ... I'D CALL IT A CALCULATED JUDGEMENT BASED ON KNOWLEDGE, RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT, AND EXPERIENCE. WES GRANT M.S.T.N. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 9:31:11 AM EDT
[#25]
How is the 'spec' going to change if he buys Crucible 416R? That is what virtually everybody uses in the custom barrel market cause they are the only mill that caters to the custom barrel makers.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 9:39:13 AM EDT
[#26]
Is he using a different alloy? Like the L-W Blackstar barrels?
Also, any idea if his barrels are cut or button rifled? |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:07:42 AM EDT
[#27]
WHY DON'T YOU CHECK OUT HIS WEBSITE? www.noveskerifleworks.com I HAVE LITTLE INSIGHT BEYOND WHAT YOU CAN LEARN THERE. WES GRANT MSTN.BIZ |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:11:04 AM EDT
[#28]
I look forward to learning what will make these new barrels better than the current offerings.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:27:55 AM EDT
[#29]
Yeah, no shit, me too. Apparently there's a new religion I need to get in on. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:32:58 AM EDT
[#30]
.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:38:03 AM EDT
[#31]
NO WONDER MOST MANUFACTURERS TOTALLY AVOID AR15.COM.
EVERYONE HERE ALREADY KNOWS EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW. YOU WANTED 12.5" DATA. YOU GOT IT. FEEL FREE TO DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS. WES |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:52:57 AM EDT
[#32]
Steve, here is a link you might want to read:
Scientific Method Some key areas of the Scientific Method that you might note are controlling for variables. With a variation of up to 120 feet per second in the bad lots of M855, and with your tests using a different Chrono under different conditions, your results are scientifically flawed. To be fair, we are not comparing like things. The chambers on the Noveske are cut much tighter. For an accurate comparison we would need to use the same reamer to cut the chambers of at least a half dozen barrels, made from the same material, with the only variable being the rifling, and use a PPC cartridge with a standard deviation in the single digits. I don't know why you dislike Noveske so much, but it is beyond irritating. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:55:49 AM EDT
[#33]
You beat me to it. Steve, Wouldn't it just be easier for you to say that you don't like Noveske barrels and you don't sell them, period?? Just so we could have a standard remark from you when anything Noveske is discussed?? I haven't seen a thread in months that mentioned "Noveske" without you trying to run them down or saying they are no better than, or as good as, anything else you sell |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 11:17:16 AM EDT
[#34]
Cassandra, Ann and John are great people to talk to... I've placed orders for a number of things for the shop I work at, they've quickly called to confirm details, and even called when there were questions they could have easily just filled in the answers to.
I love small shops that base their business on quality of product rather than price or availability. Sure, I haven't inspected their product yet and I wish I could get my orders from them more quickly, but they're pleasant people running a small business, and I don't need any quantifiable data to know that I want to continue buying product from them and build a few of their offerings for my personal enjoyment. If you're going to worry about +/- 20fps or whatever, that's fine... in any application 98% of the people here these numbers mean absolutely nothing to except for bragging rights on thier safe queens. They offer something different from other builders... their KX3 mounted on a polygonal barrel. Are there any real advantages or significant improvements? That's debatable... Is it going to make any real difference at the range? No. Noveske is just giving you a non-traditional alternative , and that's a good thing. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 11:28:31 AM EDT
[#35]
Boy is this ever a true statement. I just hope that Noveske, larue, and some others realize that some here appreciate and applaud their efforts. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 11:35:07 AM EDT
[#36]
I'm not speaking for Steve but I would wager he doesn't dislike Noveske barrels but rather all the bullshit, hype, and cheerleading that surrounds them...much like all the rest of the fads around here. Build a good product and sell it for what it is...don't make shit up and don't let others make shit up on behalf. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 11:38:19 AM EDT
[#37]
What is the test size? Is this an average or is this single results? If it was a test size, was it all the same batch? |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 11:43:18 AM EDT
[#38]
This is the public technical forum, if you dont want others chiming in, keep the posts in your IP forum. My chrony results were for me to compare the different results of various barrels/lengths. Apparently wes's data is just as flawed as mine? My conclusion from my data was that a match type SS barrels gets higher numbers from the same length "battle barrel". So to say a match 12.5” barrel get the similar numbers as a 14.5” battle barrel, is plausible. I wanted to know at what distance from each barrel the bullet would still fragment a 75gr bullet. I believe the 75 still fragments at 2100fps? 11.5" suppressed is 2113.5fps at 150yds w/75gr 14.5" is 2106fps at 210yds w/75gr When have I ever said anything bad about John or his products? I have seen a TON of misinformation regarding poly barrels, but thats about it. Poly Rifled Barrels do NOT last any longer than traditional rifled barrels Poly Rifled Barrels do NOT offer any measurable increase in velocity over traditional rifled barrels I'm not sure where this comes from, because I have never read a post by Noveske here stating differently? What I say may not be what everyone wants to hear, but I believe it to be true from my experience. When I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it. The only reason I dont sell his barrels is because John Holliger takes care of all my barrel needs.  |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 11:55:44 AM EDT
[#39]
Looks like we have a pot/kettle situation here. Just because you don't like the message, doesn't mean it's incorrect. Please point out to the audience where ol'Steve has led people astray on Noveske barrels. It also should be noted that Steve has actually paid to pimp gear on here unlike the numerous "brandname" cheerleaders that you find in any thread containing certain "brands". He also does much less gear pimpin' than a few regular members with ties to certain "brands". |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 11:58:17 AM EDT
[#40]
I think I might be with Steve here in regards to hype, it does get tiresome. Bottom line, most of the quality stainless / match barrels available will give very similar performance as far as the majority of shooters are concerned. John, however, is building a brand and doing it well. He builds a quality product from everything I have seen. They aren't "magic" though. I don't think he would tell anyone that either. This is just a guess, but could it be that he is getting away from pac-nor blanks because he's running a business & trying to make a profit? If he can produce a similar product in house & do so with a greater profit margin, good for him. It stands to reason that it is probably a business decision more than anything. Just a guess. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 12:04:50 PM EDT
[#41]
I DID SAY TO DRAW YOUR OWN CONCLUSIONS. BUT ... I JUST HAVE TO ASK ... JUST EXACTLY WHAT ARE YOU IMPLYING ABOUT MY POST? 10-RD SAMPLES, BTW. WES |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 12:36:40 PM EDT
[#42]
Tagged for shitstorm.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 12:41:59 PM EDT
[#43]
 That's pretty funny right there! Do you feel a little tension? |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 12:44:05 PM EDT
[#44]
Steve, I don't get it. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 12:59:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Chamber design affects velocity as well. The chamber of the left barrel is not the same as the barrel on the right. All variables have not been isolated, etc. Steve clarified that up a fe posts. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 1:02:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Understood; thanks for clearing that up. So, since Noveske's barrels use near match chambers, it is only fair to compare them against other match barrels, correct? |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 1:13:01 PM EDT
[#47]
It depends on what you're trying to prove or disprove. If people are trying to say that an 8R barrel will produce more velocity than a traditional cut 1:8, then they should be the same steel, same chamber, etc. The word "match" doesn't really mean anything by itself. But all things being equal, yes. Someone can say "This 12.5" barrel will produce about the same velocity as a 14.5" barrel", then do some chorno testing using a 12.5" match chambered, broach cut, lapped barrel along with the chrono results from a 14.5" button rifle, 5.56 NATO chambered, chrome lined, MILSPEC barrel and then some people will draw the conclusion that yes, this 12.5" can really work wonders, holy crap I need this now. While not a lie, or even directly misleading, it doesn't show the whole picture. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 1:23:04 PM EDT
[#48]
We are talking about 1" off free barrel here for the most part. While real, I don't think it's enough to get really excited over, but others may disagree based on their needs and profiles.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 1:32:14 PM EDT
[#49]
My conclusion, from the data presented here and my personal experience, is that a quality, "match grade" barrel with good design and manufacture, will produce more velocity and accuracy than a standard, MILSPEC "battle barrel." My conclusion is also that John Noveske, nor John Holliger, are not the only people to make these high quality, well designed barrels. Neither man, nor the barrels they offer for sale, are magic. A "stock" 16" Stainless RRA carbine barrel with a wylde chamber, cut by RRA employee number 31246 will post better chrony numbers than a 16" chrome lined MILSPEC barrel. Whoopdeedoo. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 1:44:49 PM EDT
[#50]
Depends on the need. If someone will be using the item as a duty weapon, it should be considered. If we say the 75gr fragments at 2100fps... 16" LMT = 230yds 16" WOA/Wilson = 270yds numbers from here: http://www.eskimo.com/~jbm/calculations/traj_basic/traj_basic.html I'm still learning about the terminal/fragmentation stuff. |
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