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Posted: 12/18/2005 10:28:38 AM EDT
[#1]
dont think superlight bbls can be fluted
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Posted: 12/18/2005 11:25:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Didn't mean to confuse.I'm sure you can't flute a superlight. just wondering about the other profiles.Basically i would prefer a heavier profile, but i don't want it to be too front heavy.
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Posted: 12/18/2005 11:26:53 AM EDT
[#3]
Didn't mean to confuse.I'm sure you can't flute a superlight. just wondering about the other profiles.Basically i would prefer a heavier profile, but i don't want it to be too front heavy.
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Posted: 12/18/2005 1:28:00 PM EDT
[#4]
It probably depends on the original diamter of the barrel and the length, but I think fluting generally reduces weight by 10%. I know that Slash had ADCO flute an 18" AR10 barrel. Before it weighed 58 oz and after it was 52 oz.
So for a 16" HBAR that weighs 45 oz, fluting would probably take off around 4 oz. |
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Posted: 12/18/2005 1:33:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Well, we just mounted a recce upper on an RRA lower with the 6 pos buttstock. It's a stainless hbar, midlength gas system, built by ADCO, and it didn't feel too front heavy. I was concerned about this too. A lighter one may balance better bit it wasn't bad at all. In fact, it felt pretty good. Now with the bipod attached it's front heavy. But still maneagable if you weren't going to do too much walking. Like if you were driving around in a truck looking for prairie dogs and you jumped out and threw it on the hood to toast some.      But I suppose it's all relative. |
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Posted: 12/18/2005 3:01:14 PM EDT
[#6]
I am already adding weight to the front as i'm probably going with an ARMS SIR handguard. The sir should add about 1/4lb i think. However the Ace Socom stock will help balance it out. If i find a good midlength barrel then the handguard will be that much heavier on the front end.
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Posted: 12/18/2005 4:27:02 PM EDT
[#7]
You will not gain as much on a 16" as you do on a 20" because there is just as much barrel that you can't flute on a 16" as a 20" and there is a lot more that you can flute on the 20".
I just fluted a bull, 20" and it was 3.28 lb before and 2.36 lb after. Quite a change! |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 3:47:35 AM EDT
[#8]
yeah but with the 16" you dont have the extra weight for 4"s of bull bbl. + the reduce weight of the fluting 
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Posted: 12/19/2005 3:52:19 AM EDT
[#9]
here are some thread discussing railed handguards/freefloats and collapsable stocks but i will save the pages and tell you to look at the few last pages about you socom stock.
with the barrel if you are just looking for a chromelined midlenght with no special duties and no full auto fire then i would highly suggest getting a rockriverarms middy from adcofirearms and have him recontour under the handguards to govt profile which would probably be the lightest midlenght you will be able to find. great bbl. and great people to get the job done. |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 7:09:49 AM EDT
[#10]
Do most people want a fluted barrel to save weight or to dissapate heat with the increased surface area?
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Posted: 12/19/2005 11:59:20 AM EDT
[#11]
Pretty much all of the above, plus the "cool factor" goes up quite a bit at the same time. |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 2:01:12 PM EDT
[#12]
 Half pound - minimum. SIR systems weight between 16.1oz and 20.6oz for a carbine length system. Standard handguard system weighs 7.5oz.If you only want to add 1/4 pound then pick up the Sampson SMRF-C - just as easy to install, it's all aluminum (unlike the SIR) and you don't change the height of the receiver rail so all the BUISes and optics work with it. |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 5:49:01 PM EDT
[#13]
I am actually not leaning toward a midlength, i just wouldn't mind the longer gas tube. Plus based on looks think the carb shows a little too much barrel past the handguard.
thanks for the references EKLIKWHOA. I had the thread on forends printed out a while ago. Had read the one on stocks as well, but had forgotten about your bad experiences.although this is my first post, have been reading for some time and remember only one other guy who had a .50 complain about the ace stock. (would like a solid/sturdy stock and the magpuls just too busy) I think FOREST is right SIR should add more like 1/2lb.(have the weights just didnt look it up) With the sir and ace am looking at adding almost a pound to the ar and would like to try to keep the weight down without going pencil barrel, hence the fluting/weight question. |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 5:57:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Wondering about different weights,profiles of 16" barrels? Maybe good manufacturers/venders?
Hopeing ffor actual weight comparisons on fluting,etc. |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 6:07:44 PM EDT
[#15]
JJ, is that mount a Larue SPR-E? If it is, is there enough clearance between the rear throw lever and upper that you can mount a back-up iron sight? Thanks.
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Posted: 12/19/2005 7:37:21 PM EDT
[#16]
This doesn't answer your question, but i ti s minmal.
Fluting was designed for "Cooling" of the barrel by adding more surface area, not weight reduction. Tack |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 8:31:54 PM EDT
[#17]
My personal experience is that, if you want lighter weight while keeping your heavier profile, you should get it "turned and fluted". That is, turned down to about .800 under the handguards and then fluted.
I have a RRA mid-length that I had turned and fluted by KKF. I don't know what it weighed before, but RRA barrels are FULL HBAR under the HG (no taper at all). After being turned to .850 and fluted, it weighs 35.1 ounces which is 2.4 ounces more than a 16" HBAR. Another less expensive option is to just have the barrel profiled to .750 under the handguards. It will weigh about the same as my turned and fluted, but cost you $50 compared to $90. |
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Posted: 12/19/2005 8:44:56 PM EDT
[#18]
Send me an e-mail. I got a spreadsheet that I think you'll like. |
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Posted: 12/20/2005 4:36:36 AM EDT
[#19]
if you get a good low profile buis it should fit, arms #40l, troy, knights, gg&g probably some others that i cant think of. |
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Posted: 12/20/2005 4:37:30 AM EDT
[#20]
probably me who complained about the socom on my .50 but also have two that have been mounted on 5.56 rifles that went tits up. |
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Posted: 12/20/2005 5:08:39 AM EDT
[#21]
Yep, DEFINITELY e-mail Forest for his incredible spreadsheet.
I've spec'd out the weight of all my babies since obtaining my copy.
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Posted: 12/20/2005 5:11:12 AM EDT
[#22]
Sounds like you have "special" needs. |
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Posted: 12/20/2005 6:22:28 PM EDT
[#23]
sent email forest
Thank you onslaught. Thiat is the kind of info i'm looking for. I think there are slightly different heavy profiles. Was kinda wondering about how light a dia. can be while still being fluted yet sturdy. Have a Colt sp-1 with pencil barrel/aluminum stock and like it just fine. This ar is going to be my build. I'd like a "sturdier/solid" carb (obviously not hung up on a feather weight),but i dont want to go too heavy.(wish carbon fiber had better and longer track record). Although for fun, dont want to sacrifice any reliability as it would be one of SHTF guns,and held at ready long time,hot,etc. Not to go offtopic ,but any solid(not plastic)stocks you recommend ekilkwhoa? |
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Posted: 12/21/2005 5:08:56 AM EDT
[#24]
you are pretty limited on stocks if you are looking for one that isnt plastic.
i personally love magpul stocks, never could justify the cost but after the first one i couldnt justify not getting them. recently acquired a vltor a1 clubfoot which has a really nice cheek weld for my beowulf. the beowulf is somewhat front heavy due to the large bore and heavy profile along with 2"s of metal for a brake up front and i dont have any problems with it and the vltor.  my recon has a railed freefloat along with a bipod and larue mount and it isnt that bad with the magpul. 
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Posted: 12/21/2005 7:18:29 AM EDT
[#25]
If you want a reply you're going to have to fix your account. My e-mail just got bounced. Your other option is to download it from the Maryland AR-15 Shooters Site - see the 'What's New' page to get instructions on where to find it. |
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Posted: 12/21/2005 11:26:54 AM EDT
[#26]
If you want to save weight, simply reduce the whole diameter of the barrel.
Fluting is only going to get you 4 to 6 ounces. Reducing the diemater of an HBAR can easily shave a pound or more. I do this stuff all the time. If you want to model what different diameter barrels would weigh, play with my Barrel Weight Calculator |
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Posted: 12/21/2005 5:40:09 PM EDT
[#27]
So then turning down AND fluting a heavy barrel would basically split the difference between a superlight and a heavy barrel?
Still think a magpul is too complicated and really expensive for a stock(though money not such a concern as its taking me forever to scrape together for build) BUT - is it metal? Always liked the vltor,but its plastic too isn't it?What does the vltor 6pos. w/o clubfoot weigh? |
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Posted: 12/21/2005 6:33:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Well again, my barrel, which used to be something like .920 all the way to the FSB was turned down to .850 and fluted under the handguards. According to Forest's table, it weighs the same as a mid-length barrel that is .750 for it's entire length. So given the same weight barrels, the fluted one will be stiffer than the non-fluted one. If you had one turned to .750 under the HG AND fluted, you'd probably be darn light. BUT STILL, if I had it to do over, I'd have gotten my barrel turned to .750 and called it a day. ($50 Cheaper, and the same weight.) I probably would have gotten another ounce or two if I had the front fluted too. |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 6:48:05 AM EDT
[#29]
Plastic. Just about every AR stock is. Heck the plastic telestocks hold up better than the original aluminum stocks.
It's in the spreadsheet - which by the way was rejected again from your e-mail account. You've either got to lower you SPAM settings on your e-mail or just download off www.MD-AR15.com per my previous instructions. |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 9:54:16 AM EDT
[#30]
If you dont want a front heavy rifle there are two things that will help. Shorter and lighter.
Shorter will improve the front heavy issue better than a reduction in weight via fluting. However from your screen name it appears you are 16 and cant do an SBR for 5 more years. Id honestly suggest an ultralight or you wont be happy with the balance after you start puting stuff on your rifle and I dont think you will find it to have any deficit in your "performance needs" area. If it would not meet your needs I suggest looking at the carbon fiber barrels by ABS. You get the full HBAR diameter for rigitity, better cooling than fluting by manitudes of order, and it weighs less than an ultralight barrel. Very expensive though... |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 10:04:57 AM EDT
[#31]
Using RRA parts:
Factory 16" CAR bbl assy (HBAR) 2.6lbs Factory 16" CAR bbl assy (fluted HBAR) 2.2lbs Both weighed on same postal scale under identical conditions. Steve/RRA |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 10:21:58 AM EDT
[#32]
Steve,
If you wouldn't mind, how about a 16" mid-length bbl? I never weighed mine before having it reprofiled and fluted. Thanks!
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Posted: 12/22/2005 4:10:20 PM EDT
[#34]
4 to 6 ounces? Where do you get that? When I flute a 20" bull I loose about 15 ounces. Sure, fluting an H-BAR won't yield that kind of weight loss but I get much better accuracy from fluting than I do by reducing the profile. |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 4:30:18 PM EDT
[#35]
As per Bushmaster when I built my 16" with fluted barrel, a fluted barrel will weigh 2 OZ more than an M4 barrel. You can just call them and they will be happy to give you the exact figures to the ounce!
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Posted: 12/22/2005 4:32:10 PM EDT
[#36]
2 OZ, that's not fluting, those are just scratches! lol.
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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:15:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Many of the guys asking about fluting barrels are talking about HBAR carbines. RRA moderator made my point for me earlier today when he posted the difference between the unfluted and fluted weights of their barrels.
Do the math: 2.6lbs-2.2lbs=0.4lbs If you work in ounces, that's 6.4 ounces. Just for reference, I use 16 ounces to the pound in my calculations. You may be working in different pounds.  You are certainly correct that a 20" bull barrel will shed more weight than a medium heavy carbine barrel. The depth and width of the fluting also has much to do with it. Many fluting jobs I have seen are for CDI and really have very little weight or cooling area effects. |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:22:14 PM EDT
[#38]
These weights will vary some depending on length and depth of fluting, etc. But in general it's very accurate.
10" Fluted HBAR 1.5 10" HBAR 1.6 11.5" (A1 profile - XM177 type) 1.3 11.5" Fluted HBAR 1.6 11.5" HBAR 1.8 14.5" M4 1.6 14.5" M4A1 (heavier under the handguards) 1.8 14.5" Fluted HBAR 1.8 14.5" HBAR 2.1 16" Super Light Weight (A1 type) 1.5 16" M4 1.8 16" Mid Length (Govt Profile under handguards) 1.6 16" Medium Profile (0.75" for entire length) 1.8 16" Medium Profile MRP Barrel (includes gas block & gas tube) 2.3 16" Fluted HBAR 2.1 16" HBAR 2.3 16" M4 Dissapator 1.9 16" Fluted HBAR Dissapator 2.2 16" HBAR Dissapator 2.6 20" 'Pencil' (A1) Profile 1.8 20" Govt (A2) Profile 2.1 20" Fluted HBAR 2.6 20" HBAR 3.1 24" Fluted HBAR 2.7 24" HBAR 3.5 These weights do not include handguard cap, flash supressor, barrel nut & associate hardware. Weights are in pounds. This is not my chart. I lost the original posters name, so I hope it's all right that I reposted it without asking. |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:34:17 PM EDT
[#39]
That should probably be properly credited to Forest. groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/techdata.msnw He has a LOT more info on www.md-ar15.com Of course you are a member there as well so you already knew that right? 
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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:36:10 PM EDT
[#40]
So who's figures are you quoting here? In the last 10 years I have probably fluted 500 barrels. I don't flute the barrels for cosmetics, I flute them for weight reduction and increased surface area.
Like I said, I take 15 ounces off of a 20" bull. If I couln't reduce the weight any more than the chart that you show above, I wouln't even bother. |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:49:26 PM EDT
[#41]
Isn't a bull thicker than an HBAR? Every time you increase the radius of a circle, you increase the area exponentially (pie x radius squared). So this may have something to do with it. Add in some deeper than normal flutes and it's not hard to imagine that you could shave 15 ounces.
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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:53:16 PM EDT
[#42]
Yes, Bull barrels are often 1" or 0.980" behind the gas block. Hbar are often right around 0.875" SPR's are around 0.840" Govt profile tapers from about 0.675" to about 0.625" |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:56:30 PM EDT
[#43]
There is no doubt that you can take way more material off of a bull barrel than you can an H-BAR, it just staggers my imagination that anyone would actually go through the work or expense of flutting for only a few ounces.
I't's easy for me to forget that my customers are far from the "main-stream" AR user. I no longer have any objectivity with AR's.........I think of them all as haveing match-grade stainless barrels and large scopes. |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 5:59:51 PM EDT
[#44]
It baffles me too. I usually steer them to a slightly smaller OD, say about 1/16" to save the same weight. We (you and I) certainly live in a bubble when it comes to custom barrels and uppers. I have 10 hand lapped Rock SS blanks sitting on the shelf and a 6.5 Grendel reamer just waiting to get broken in. The good thing is that I have my license agreement from AA too, just working out the kinks and it's Grendel time baby... |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 6:08:04 PM EDT
[#45]
I have lived an isolated existence for the last couple of years. I have been so busy with building the WSSM's I haven't done anything with any of the other offerings that have been so popular. Not only have I not had time to build anything else, I haven't even had time to shoot or play with any of the other "toys"
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Posted: 12/22/2005 7:36:16 PM EDT
[#46]
This is all great info!Weight is of great concern,but obviously not the only one or iwould just get another pencil barrel or a gov profile.I got the impression somewhere that a fluted barrel,being more rigid would whip lessand therefore be more accurate.saw footage once of an m16(full auto granted)slowed down 30,000times an could not believe how much the barrel warped up & down. I would think it would dissipate heat better, and less steel=less weight.
Love forests chart-was exactlly what i wanted.But all the weights seem a bit lighter than what i've seen elswhere? Can someone tell me if you can flute a med profile? |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 9:07:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Now thats some outstanding info. It looks to me like fluting isn't worth the time or expense. |
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Posted: 12/23/2005 7:35:02 AM EDT
[#48]
Yep Which is why you need page 3 of the spreadsheet to explain how the weights are presented. The weights for the barrels show are the weights of the barrels w/o any 'unneeded' parts. So the weights of these parts have been deleted: Front Sight Base Muzzle Devices Barrel Nut & related handgauard retention parts Handguard Cap This is because the chart is used to determine the project weight of the rifle. Since some builders use different sas blocks (instead of the FSB) or different handguards (which have their own barrel nut) it makes it easier to just delete those items from the barrel weights. However since the same parts were removed from all them, the weight differences between the barrels remain the same so you can still use the chart to compare barrels. |
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Posted: 12/23/2005 11:01:58 AM EDT
[#49]
Dtech- I received a fluted barrel in from a customer today. Here are 2 pictures, the first showing the whole barrel profile and the second showing the fluted area which is only between the front sight base and the muzzle. This particular barrel has a total of 4 flutes, about 0.175" wide and 0.125" deep made with an ACME thread type shaped cutter, so say flat on the bottom with angled sides to the flute profile.  This is a perfect example of CDI fluting, relatively no cooling benefit and certainly minimum weight benefit, but Chicks Dig It...  They did not even bother to flute under the handguard because it probably had typical plastic handguards and you would not be able to see the fluting, so why do the work? Unfortunately, this is the kind of BS work that the mainstream user accepts as fluting... |
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Posted: 12/23/2005 3:09:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Uhm, pardon me for inserting my $.02, but the real advantage of fluting that I haven't seen posted here, is that fluting improves heat dissipation by increasing barrel surface area. Another advantage, when done properly, is that it helps keep the barrel straight as it heats and it also stabilizes the vibrations/harmonics in the barrel. I offer that fluting was originally added to high end target barrels for accuracy purposes and not necessarily for weight savings.
Food for thought.  |
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