Which rail system?

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Posted: 10/9/2004 4:24:20 PM EDT

I'm starting a SBR project, and am having troubles picking out of the following. Troy Ind. MRF-C, Ameetech Predator P-4, or A.R.M.S SIR

I wanted a continuous rail, but hear that theTroy is close enough to not cause any problems. For instance, mounting optics at any point along the rail.
I've always heard that the SIR is HEAVY, and of course $$$. Don't want a 10 pound SBR.
Contacted Ameetech, said they aren't sure about the weight of the piece, but that it was very light.
It is also a great price and looks a little different

Does anyone have experience with one?
I've always liked the Troy rail, and have heard great things about them.
I just want to do it right the first time. Thanks

Posted: 10/9/2004 5:37:12 PM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
I've always liked the Troy rail, and have heard great things about them.

I believe, sir, you have just answered your own question.

I have an MRF-R. I am very happy with it. It is a little heavier than a rifle length KAC ff ras, or DD, or LaRue... BUT... none of those designs allow you to remove the lower portion for cleaning and oiling of the barrel.

The Arms SIR weighs more and it much more expensive, and the POF requires the barrel to be removed.

IMHO, the Troy is an excellent balance of: ease of installation, weight, ease of cleaning, and cost.

Buy whatever YOU like.

Have a good one.

Stainless

Posted: 10/9/2004 5:52:48 PM EDT

[#2]

Of the three, I'd pick Troy, but if given other options, I'd go with either DD or LaRue.

Posted: 10/9/2004 7:26:08 PM EDT

[#3]

Dont forget the CAS-V.

Posted: 10/10/2004 8:03:32 PM EDT

[#4]

I find it humorous when the SIR gets dogged for weight. The whole unit can't weight more than a few ounces over stock carbine handguards do. It is NOT that heavy, but is STURDY as hell. To each their own, but it's SIR for me, just don't believe all you read. I believe barrel fluting removes as much weight as the SIR adds, and I see a hell of alot of non fluted barrels around here. Damn fat pigs of AR's

The ONLY disadvantage to the SIR that is a reality that I have seen, is my model(45M) is a bit wide for those with girly hands, and if you want to put any type of laser on the 6 o'clock rail, it's a bit far from the barrel. IMO the SIR is first rate as is a few other of the choices mentioned.

Posted: 10/10/2004 8:49:19 PM EDT

[#5]

I have the SIR #46C and it's lighter than my KAC RAS system. I prefer the SIR but also the KAC RAS for simple bulletproof designs. Both are good choices.

Posted: 10/10/2004 9:01:13 PM EDT

[#6]

The SIR #50's systems are actally not as heavy as some others when you consider you can select to remove what rails you don't need. The bottom handguard is a polymer and lighter wt. than any alum. hand guards. The wt. of plasic hand guard panels to go over the the heated alum. of other rail systemsn so you don't get burned is not generally put into the wt. equasion by their sales promo's, and the SIR's don't require any panels at all.
The slim line SIR's, which is all of them, except the #45's, are easier to hold because they are not as wide as the others with their added required panels and added overall width. I'd say the #50-C bi-level is also the easiest of all rails systems to install. You don't ever have to worry about perfect alignment with the receiver, as the all the SIR's grab the receiver and the barrel nut, so thet are extra rugged an reliable, and in in service with a lot of SPEC-OPS where it counts, by the thousands. Barret, Colt, Armalite, Bushmaster, sell them to their military customers installed, plus some civilian customers because the SIR's are top of the line equipment that don't have problems incured on some other aftermarket types. SIR's, KAC, and D.D. are the three best out there, IMHO, and our and other military's think so too.
Good shootin, Jack

Posted: 10/10/2004 9:46:10 PM EDT

[#7]

I have never really found the SIRs to be overly heavy though that is often one of the things people say about them. This is, however, the first time I have read someone (RABIDFOX50) say their SIR is lighter than a RAS. I have never weighed the two so I couldnt say but I did always presume the RAS was lighter.

I do however, know that a lot of people look at the SIR and say it is too bulky. I have never really understood this since the actual width of the slim line SIRs, is thinner than almost all of the other railed handgaurds I have ever seen or used. Especially when you add the pannels to the other systems. And like 3rdtk pointed out, all SIRs are slimline except the #45's, and no SIRs need pannels.

Anyway... just some random observations at a quarter to 2 in the morning...

Posted: 10/10/2004 9:50:19 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
I have the SIR #46C and it's lighter than my KAC RAS system. I prefer the SIR but also the KAC RAS for simple bulletproof designs. Both are good choices.

to be fair, the KAC includes its own barrel nut IIRC, the SIR does not

Remman

Posted: 10/10/2004 9:52:54 PM EDT

[#9]

Anyway... just some random observations at a quarter to 2 in the morning... Go to bed, your too young to be up this late, or are you using a lap top under the covers with a flash light?
Jack

Posted: 10/10/2004 10:01:23 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I have the SIR #46C and it's lighter than my KAC RAS system. I prefer the SIR but also the KAC RAS for simple bulletproof designs. Both are good choices.

to be fair, the KAC includes its own barrel nut IIRC, the SIR does not

Remman

Thats a good point, the SIR's let us use the standard barrel nut which is lighter and we don't have to take the barrel off. The SIR's use a steel half collar that connects the upper rail to the barrel nut, and that saves wt. too.
Jack

Posted: 10/10/2004 10:20:17 PM EDT

[#11]

The cons of each system in my opinion. Both are free floating & easy to install, but there are other points to consider:

SIR: heavy (around 14oz. for the SIR alone), somewhat bulky due to a "rail on rail" approach (a rail mounted clicker switch flashlight may not work so well here), narrows your optic choice (Eotech will only work on the bi-level and only in the forward position, ACOG is raised higher, Aimpoint needs lower mount), expensive. Moreover with the issue of the TD foregrip not fitting, I would avoid a 400,- USD system which seemingly has its own rail specs. Never been issued (if that matters for you).

Troy: heavy (13oz. but delta ring will have to be removed), not 100% continous rail (ala URX) but good enough for most uses.

Posted: 10/11/2004 2:53:42 AM EDT

[#12]

Given the options, I'd go Predator, I like mine, and I think a boxy little SBR would look bad ass. If I could pick out any system I'd go Larue without question. I just got a spr scope mount from them and I am astonished by the workmanship.

Posted: 10/11/2004 4:58:49 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
I find it humorous when the SIR gets dogged for weight. The whole unit can't weight more than a few ounces over stock carbine handguards do.

Actually it weighs more than half a pound more than the stock hand guards.

It is NOT that heavy, but is STURDY as hell.

Its the heaviest rail system used by a large number of people on this board

To each their own, but it's SIR for me, just don't believe all you read.

Certainly not what you are typing.

I believe barrel fluting removes as much weight as the SIR adds, and I see a hell of alot of non fluted barrels around here.

No, silly iyou are wrong or the weight and you see a lot of people with M4 or Lightweight barrels here. What is usually advocated is a light weight (M4 or A1) type of profile AND a lightweight forearm.

Damn fat pigs of AR's

Yes we all rag on overly heavy forearms and HBARs round here.

The ONLY disadvantage to the SIR that is a reality that I have seen, is my model(45M) is a bit wide for those with girly hands, and if you want to put any type of laser on the 6 o'clock rail, it's a bit far from the barrel. IMO the SIR is first rate as is a few other of the choices mentioned.

Posted: 10/11/2004 7:01:52 AM EDT

[#14]

Have you looked into the Knight's URX II, I believe Wes has them at MSTN.

Posted: 10/11/2004 7:26:17 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Of the three, I'd pick Troy, but if given other options, I'd go with either DD or LaRue.

~~What do you like better about the DD and La Rue over the Troy system?~~

Nevermind, I just found your other thread where you installed the MRF-C. Great info. Thanks Mongo.

Posted: 10/11/2004 7:26:54 AM EDT

[#16]

(Eotech will only work on the bi-level and only in the forward position, ACOG is raised higher, Aimpoint needs lower mount), expensive

uhhh, why is that? My eotech works just fine on my 45M. Is it co witnessed? No, but I PREFER my 1moa dot to not have the FSP blocking any of my immediate view around the fine dot. Kind of ruins the whole concept of fine shooting with the eotech IMO.(unless you have a flipper FS) I use my rifle to plink groundhogs and the like, and if I'm aiming at his little noggin, I want to see if he ducks down, and not have all the action happen behind the front sight post. Just my .02 In fact, I had considered mounting the Eotech on the arms #19 mount to raise it even more and to give me QD capabilities if the irons are ever needed in a hurry.

Posted: 10/11/2004 7:34:23 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Of the three, I'd pick Troy, but if given other options, I'd go with either DD or LaRue.

What do you like better about the DD and La Rue over the Troy system?

MUCH less weight, front rail is same height as reciever, can use KAC rail panels, etc.

Posted: 10/11/2004 9:46:24 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
uhhh, why is that? My eotech works just fine on my 45M. Is it co witnessed? No, but I PREFER my 1moa dot to not have the FSP blocking any of my immediate view around the fine dot. Kind of ruins the whole concept of fine shooting with the eotech

If you kept both eyes open like you're supposed to when shooting with a red dot then the front sight post wouldn't be blocking any of the view. Closing one eye kind of ruins the whole concept of using a red dot in the first place.

Posted: 10/11/2004 10:24:39 AM EDT

[#19]

carbine's should have fixed front sight post

Posted: 10/11/2004 1:44:55 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Go to bed, your too young to be up this late, or are you using a lap top under the covers with a flash light?
Jack

Flashlight, what are you joking? Its a tactical illumination device...

Posted: 10/11/2004 1:48:13 PM EDT

[#21]

Arms SIR 45M

Posted: 10/11/2004 2:07:05 PM EDT

[#22]

I've never found a SIR to be heavy. Guess I am just too used to toting around a 50 lb son and a 38 lb son all the time, usually one in each arm. Compared to them, an 8-10 lb loaded rilfe with a tac sling just doesnt feel heavy to me. But thats just me.

Posted: 10/11/2004 2:11:21 PM EDT

[#23]

If you kept both eyes open like you're supposed to when shooting with a red dot then the front sight post wouldn't be blocking any of the view. Closing one eye kind of ruins the whole concept of using a red dot in the first place

Well, thats all fine and dandy, but when placing long range precision shots, I find everything focuses better when I close my left eye. Two eyes open is great for CQB, and quick snap shots, but for ME PERSONALLY, longe range will always be the old fashioned tried and true method. It may not be YOUR preference, but it works great for me. I'd put my marksmanship up against almost anybody.

Posted: 10/11/2004 2:42:51 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
...with a red dot...

....but when placing long range precision shots...

Posted: 10/11/2004 2:53:10 PM EDT

[#25]

<Personal attack removed.>

Posted: 10/11/2004 3:58:39 PM EDT

[#26]

Damn Ridley, I think you just took the title of biggest asshole on AR15.com away from me...

At least my excuse is posting while drunk. Whats yours?

Posted: 10/11/2004 4:25:43 PM EDT

[#27]

And this thread is off an a tangent........................................

Rail system threads seem to do this now and then.......................and 3rdtk posted on this one also, but he didn't ruin it like he normally does.

Oh, well, IBTL.

Posted: 10/11/2004 4:45:05 PM EDT

[#28]

I apologise for being a dick, and for screwing up this thread. I know I'm an ass sometimes, just the way I am, but it's rarely uncalled for.

Shivan just posted to piss me off, and had he not gotten shredded by me on another post, he would not have said anything at all. I guess it's now his life goal to try to discredit me in some strange way. And he's a moderator, go figure, lol. I promose to not stoop to his level anymore, lol.

For the rail system question, they are all more versatile than standard handguards or free float tubes. I only have experience with a couple, with the SIR far and away my favorite. I think the big name railed forends are all pretty comparable, I say choose the one you think loooks best as they all get the job done. I like the looks of the sir, I like my eotech to sit a little higher than the fsp, I have rather large hands, and I carried a 12 lb pellet rifle for miles when I was 10 years old, and I'll soon have an m900 on the bottom rail so the SIR fits me perfect. It may totally suck for others and I completely understand. Just like there's some eotech haters. Hell, I hated it at first too, took me awhile to get used to. But now, it gets rotated from the AR to the duck gun on a regular basis. Just simply the best sight I've ever seen for dual duty work like that. I figure if I can hit a duck flying at 50 mph at 60 yards, i sure as hell can hit a shivan, I mean a human , running at 15.

Posted: 10/11/2004 5:40:25 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Of the three, I'd pick Troy, but if given other options, I'd go with either DD or LaRue.

~~What do you like better about the DD and La Rue over the Troy system?~~

Nevermind, I just found your other thread where you installed the MRF-C. Great info. Thanks Mongo.

~~Can you point me to that thread? I've recently become interested in the MRF-C and would like to read how it compares to the DD 7.0. Thanks~~ - Never mind, found it. (HERE). Thanks

Posted: 10/12/2004 5:41:46 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
<Removed.>

Posted: 10/12/2004 5:47:44 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
I apologise for being a dick, and for screwing up this thread. I know I'm an ass sometimes, just the way I am, but it's rarely uncalled for.

Shivan just posted to piss me off, and had he not gotten shredded by me on another post, he would not have said anything at all. I guess it's now his life goal to try to discredit me in some strange way. And he's a moderator, go figure, lol. I promose to not stoop to his level anymore, lol.

For the rail system question, they are all more versatile than standard handguards or free float tubes. I only have experience with a couple, with the SIR far and away my favorite. I think the big name railed forends are all pretty comparable, I say choose the one you think loooks best as they all get the job done. I like the looks of the sir, I like my eotech to sit a little higher than the fsp, I have rather large hands, and I carried a 12 lb pellet rifle for miles when I was 10 years old, and I'll soon have an m900 on the bottom rail so the SIR fits me perfect. It may totally suck for others and I completely understand. Just like there's some eotech haters. Hell, I hated it at first too, took me awhile to get used to. But now, it gets rotated from the AR to the duck gun on a regular basis. Just simply the best sight I've ever seen for dual duty work like that. I figure if I can hit a duck flying at 50 mph at 60 yards, i sure as hell can hit a shivan, I mean a human , running at 15.

This is still the internet, right? Thought so....you need to lighten up Francis. Threats of killing me? Come on now?

Long range precision shots, being seriously discussed, with a red dot sight are amusing. At 300 yds your center dot is covering 3". I found it EXTREMELY comedic that it was being discussed in all seriousness.

Posted: 10/12/2004 6:00:40 AM EDT

[#32]

Please keep the technical forums business-like and, well, technical. Petty squabbles can be engaged in the Pit, or (to a lesser extent) in GD--but NOT in this forum. Mods are expected to serve as examples and are not to provoke members.

Oh, are you sure the dot only covers 3" at 300 yards?

ETA: My comments are intended to apply to everyone--please keep the technical forums pleasant for everyone. We do not refer to using each other as targets--even in jest.

Edit II: Removed quote, as my comments are directed at everyone, not anyone in particular.

Posted: 10/12/2004 6:31:12 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
Please keep the technical forums business-like and, well, technical. Petty squabbles can be engaged in the Pit, or (to a lesser extent) in GD--but NOT in this forum. Mods are expected to serve as examples and are not to provoke members.

Oh, are you sure the dot only covers 3" at 300 yards?

ETA: My comments are intended to apply to everyone--please keep the technical forums pleasant for everyone. We do not refer to using each other as targets--even in jest.

Damn it! I just got the keys to the Yugo too. Oh well, if being a mod is going to be such a big fricking deal when I post, then away it goes...

That was easy.

TBK1 thanks for making that easy for me.

Posted: 10/12/2004 6:53:01 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:
I have the SIR #46C and it's lighter than my KAC RAS system. I prefer the SIR but also the KAC RAS for simple bulletproof designs. Both are good choices.

Check this thread:
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=12&t=172238

There is no way the #46C is lighter than the RAS. It may FEEL lighter because the SIR distributes its weight along the entire length of the gun instead of hanging it all out in front of the barrel; but in terms of actual weight, the lightest SIR is still 5-6 ounces heavier than a RAS.

However, that brings up a good point, A 18oz rail system that has 8oz of its weight over the upper receiver may handle a lot better than a 11oz rail system that has all 11oz forward of the barrel nut.

Posted: 10/12/2004 12:02:48 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Anyway... just some random observations at a quarter to 2 in the morning... Go to bed, your too young to be up this late, or are you using a lap top under the covers with a flash light?
Jack

Posted: 10/12/2004 12:27:53 PM EDT

[#36]

Just weighed my new Troy MRF-CX on the postal scale.

It is 13.5 oz. on the nose.

Very nice finish and machine work.

The extended side rails should make adding a light easier.

Posted: 10/12/2004 3:14:24 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Anyway... just some random observations at a quarter to 2 in the morning... Go to bed, your too young to be up this late, or are you using a lap top under the covers with a flash light?
Jack

img.photobucket.com/albums/v410/Remman1/m6_cb_full01.jpg

I have one of those... mine isnt the new style with the strike bezel though. If I were to have used it under the covers with my laptop, I think I would be blind... 500 lumens is a lot of light. I use a E1e with a KL1 LED bezel for my under the sheet night ops!!! Enough light to see by but not enough to disturb anyone else who may be under the sheets with me!

Total joke by the way... well, mostly anyway!

Posted: 10/12/2004 3:41:48 PM EDT

[#38]

look at the olympic arms firsh system. I have this handguard system on my ar15 and it is extremely light and durable. They also have a very nice qualty finish and a good price. this system also has the continuous rail.

Posted: 10/12/2004 5:19:30 PM EDT

[#39]

The FIRSH that I had did not have the continuous rail... Granted, this was a few years back so things may have changed, but mine did not.

Posted: 10/12/2004 5:54:40 PM EDT

[#40]

The FIRSH almost has a continuos rail. It lines up, but you have a long space without a milled cut where the reciever and FIRSH meet.

Posted: 10/12/2004 6:12:41 PM EDT

[#41]

The are only three continuous rail systems that are realy one continuous rail that works, KAC URX, SIR, and LMT monolithic.
Jack

Posted: 10/12/2004 7:18:32 PM EDT

[#42]

Unless I am mistaken, even the URX isnt totally continuous like the SIR and MRP... there is a area where the receiver meets the rail on the URX where nothing can be mounted, just like the Troy... right? Please correct me if I am mistaken.