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Posted: 9/10/2018 8:45:30 PM EDT
[#1]
The fwd assist most often gets damaged and jams up the gun when it is hit while the rifle is firing.
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Posted: 9/10/2018 11:08:57 PM EDT
[#2]
Very interesting discussion and comments.
I, personally, have never seen a forward assist breakage, good info to know. |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 12:31:15 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you are saying your knowledge of the system is better than... Eugene Stoner Pat Rogers Clint Smith I KNOW my knowledge doesn’t equal theirs. Oh noes! |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 1:28:39 AM EDT
[#4]
"Yes i feel a forward assist is a must have in a combat carbine – one of those ‘in case all else fails’ devices that is a nice to have item on your weapon" Larry Vickers
"The AR15 family of rifles was designed to have a Sturmgewehr inspired dust cover and all variants should in fact have one – if they don’t they fall into the category of guns for games and not guns for fighting." Larry Vickers Larry Vickers of Vickers Tactical in a retired US Army 1st SFOD-Delta combat veteran with years of experience in the firearms industry as a combat marksmanship instructor and industry consultant. In recent years he has hosted tactical firearms related TV shows on the Sportsman Channel with the latest being TacTV of which Bravo Company is a presenting sponsor.Larry Vickers special operations background is one of the most unique in the industry today; he has been directly or indirectly involved in the some of the most significant special operations missions of the last quarter century. During Operation Just Cause he participated in Operation Acid Gambit – the rescue of Kurt Muse from Modelo Prison in Panama City, Panama. As a tactics and marksmanship instructor on active duty he helped train special operations personnel that later captured Saddam Hussein and eliminated his sons Uday and Qusay Hussein. In addition he was directly involved in the design and development of the HK416 for Tier One SOF use which was used by Naval Special Warfare personnel to kill Osama Bin Laden. |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 3:12:50 AM EDT
[#5]
Yes it is a potential catastrophic failure point although a highly unlikely one,increased if you are doing alot of barricade shooting. If you feel like the cons out weigh the benefits then remove it since its not necessary to the functioning of the rifle and you can do the same thing by thumbing forward in the bolt carrier notch.
You can always fill the hole with this, a plus if you are running suppressed. 
https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 3:18:46 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Didn't St. Eugene decline to chrome the bore? Oh noes! |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 5:29:11 AM EDT
[#7]
I have a forward assist
or not  PS, so would hammering out what's left of the roll pin and allowing the FA to back out of the receiver have remedied the system rather than cutting it open? |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 5:42:02 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is a never ending argument here. It's been going on since I registered in 1999, and it will continue long after I'm dead. |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 6:18:09 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes it is a potential catastrophic failure point although a highly unlikely one,increased if you are doing alot of barricade shooting. If you feel like the cons out weigh the benefits then remove it since its not necessary to the functioning of the rifle and you can do the same thing by thumbing forward in the bolt carrier notch. You can always fill the hole with this, a plus if you are running suppressed. https://www.rainierarms.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/e/7/e7571f5f3369e85b49ad39cf24d717c9.jpg https://www.rainierarms.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/i/m/image_18956.jpg https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html 
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Posted: 9/11/2018 7:05:38 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For $38.99, I'll keep my forward assist! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yes it is a potential catastrophic failure point although a highly unlikely one,increased if you are doing alot of barricade shooting. If you feel like the cons out weigh the benefits then remove it since its not necessary to the functioning of the rifle and you can do the same thing by thumbing forward in the bolt carrier notch. You can always fill the hole with this, a plus if you are running suppressed. https://www.rainierarms.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/e/7/e7571f5f3369e85b49ad39cf24d717c9.jpg https://www.rainierarms.com/pub/media/catalog/product/cache/c687aa7517cf01e65c009f6943c2b1e9/i/m/image_18956.jpg https://www.weaponoutfitters.com/ar-gas-vent.html 
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Posted: 9/11/2018 7:54:51 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As far as the forward assist goes, I still prefer to have it as to not have it. What happened in your case is not common and the chance of it happening is worth the risk, IMO. I bet the pin was installed wrong or the wrong pin was used or the pin hole size in the upper was drilled wrong or the forward assist was damaged or installed wrong. I don't see a properly installed forward assist falling out and the pin snapping from no tension would only happen if the pin was rusted/ corroded or not fit properly. 
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Posted: 9/11/2018 11:22:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Most issues I have seen with the forward assist are operator induced. Especially off a bench. People rotate their thumb up (for right handed people) this places their thumb on the forward assist side of the upper instead of wrapped around the pistol grip. They squeeze a round off, recoil pushes gun back and their thumb into the forward assist. Closing the assist as the bolt starts moving backwards. At this point something has to give. Usually the roll pin snaps and the assist is ejected. https://i.imgur.com/qZTq4ob.jpg |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 3:16:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
So we smack it with a mallet, IT DOESN’T MOVE!!! So we get a brass plate and wail on it with a large hammer, it slowly moves with each blow. Correlation or causation? Just Sayin.
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Posted: 9/11/2018 6:48:49 PM EDT
[#14]
Meh. 26 years in the Army, beaucoup 5.56mm put down range from M16A1, M16A2, M4, and M4A1. I never saw a FA break or jam a rifle but have used it on occasion. I guess the OP is smarter than DOD.
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Posted: 9/11/2018 6:59:02 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It seems most all FA haters are fond of smashing, smacking, hammering, bashing, ect on their ARs. Correlation or causation? Just Sayin. So how would YOU have cleared it? |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 7:47:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh. 26 years in the Army, beaucoup 5.56mm put down range from M16A1, M16A2, M4, and M4A1. I never saw a FA break or jam a rifle but have used it on occasion. I guess the OP is smarter than DOD. I've never seen the mere presence of a Forward Assist cause a jam or malfunction in over a decade of use with the Marines. And I have seen a FA help get a rifle back into action after a bit of sand/dirt caused it to not fully seat a round. Heck, I've even done it myself. |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 8:15:27 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh. 26 years in the Army, beaucoup 5.56mm put down range from M16A1, M16A2, M4, and M4A1. I never saw a FA break or jam a rifle but have used it on occasion. I guess the OP is smarter than DOD. THAT DOD??? |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 8:30:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've never seen the mere presence of a Forward Assist cause a jam or malfunction in over a decade of use with the Marines. And I have seen a FA help get a rifle back into action after a bit of sand/dirt caused it to not fully seat a round. Heck, I've even done it myself. |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 8:36:20 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This wasn’t covered in the Colt L.E. Armorers course. So how would YOU have cleared it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: It seems most all FA haters are fond of smashing, smacking, hammering, bashing, ect on their ARs. Correlation or causation? Just Sayin. So how would YOU have cleared it? Quoted:
Remove the forward assist, just drive out the pin and pull out everything you can. Then shine a light down the tunnel. If you can see where the pawl is caught you may be able to work the bolt carrier in the proper direction to get it loose. That's what I've done when I encountered this malfunction. The roll pin does not simply fail without significant force being applied and as we can see from your picts the pin is still holding the FA in the upper so the pin failed due to the FA being pushed during firing. BCG moving rearward grabs the extended pawl and snaps roll pin freeing the pawl. Pawl is loose and BCG moves forward and free pawl joins it jamming the action on the forward stroke. Most likely you needed to move the BCG backwards to free the jam and hammering it forward obviously split the upper when the pawl and the BCG were beaten into a space with room only for the BCG. Giving up the proven advantages of the FA to avoid a very rare and preventable jam might not be the best answer. |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 8:55:29 PM EDT
[#20]
I can tell you for a fact that the Forward Assist was NOT engaged when the weapon was fired, I was observing the owner/shooter at the time.
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Posted: 9/11/2018 8:58:13 PM EDT
[#21]
You are ALL wrong, the only fix for that shit is AK, problem SOLVED...…...
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Posted: 9/11/2018 9:01:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Typically this rare malfunction is from the FA being pushed forward during firing and the BCG needs to move rearward slightly to free the pawl. |
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Posted: 9/11/2018 9:14:01 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So would that be the same DOD as the one in the sixties that set out to deliberately sabotage the M-16 platform by using ball powder instead of IMR powder, even after both Stoner and Colt stated the calcium carbonate in the ball powder would result in malfunctions? THAT DOD??? |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 6:40:48 PM EDT
[#24]
there's actually some good information in this thread, aside from the zealotry and religious diatribe and worship at the altar of No-Forward-Assist vs. those that drink from the Chalice of the FA.
1. how the pin breaks: from riding the FA while BCG going rearward. or wall banging (banging into the wall/barricade, not gamer shooting through the wall). 2. subtle: the failure might not manifest itself right away, but could happen later, perhaps next shooting session, even different shooter. This is evidenced by the swearing on the stack-of-bibles and all-that-is-holy that "I dinndo nuffin", didn't touch the forward assist when it broke, probably was the previous bloke. the 2nd point implies that when the pin is caused to fail from 1st point, that perhaps it might not be a 100% failure, maybe 90% failure, but still operator induced. And that the remaining 10% failure could be just from the vibration and shock of continued shooting, and then the innocent party is left holding the bag. sure are a lot of religious figures of speech here. it's almost as if some folks believe that when you get to The Pearly Gates, Saint Peter is going to ask you if believe in the FA or not, and so it's a mission to gain as many converts as possible. almost a GD discussion. kinda funny, certainly humorous to spectate, but still yet, informative. thank you, gentlemen. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 6:45:20 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
there's actually some good information in this thread, aside from the zealotry and religious diatribe and worship at the altar of No-Forward-Assist vs. those that drink from the Chalice of the FA. 1. how the pin breaks: from riding the FA while BCG going rearward. or wall banging (banging into the wall/barricade, not gamer shooting through the wall). 2. subtle: the failure might not manifest itself right away, but could happen later, perhaps next shooting session, even different shooter. This is evidenced by the swearing on the stack-of-bibles and all-that-is-holy that "I dinndo nuffin", didn't touch the forward assist when it broke, probably was the previous bloke. the 2nd point implies that when the pin is caused to fail from 1st point, that perhaps it might not be a 100% failure, maybe 90% failure, but still operator induced. And that the remaining 10% failure could be just from the vibration and shock of continued shooting, and then the innocent party is left holding the bag. sure are a lot of religious figures of speech here. it's almost as if some folks believe that when you get to The Pearly Gates, Saint Peter is going to ask you if believe in the FA or not, and so it's a mission to gain as many converts as possible. almost a GD discussion. kinda funny, certainly humorous to spectate, but still yet, informative. thank you, gentlemen. 
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Posted: 9/12/2018 7:17:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In case you didn't notice, it's 2018 not 1964. Springfield Armory, the real one, were the main saboteurs and they closed long ago. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: So would that be the same DOD as the one in the sixties that set out to deliberately sabotage the M-16 platform by using ball powder instead of IMR powder, even after both Stoner and Colt stated the calcium carbonate in the ball powder would result in malfunctions? THAT DOD??? 2) Not all ball propellant caused problems, only certain lots that had calcium carbonate percentages at the high end of the tolerance band. The only difference between WC 844, which is the primary propellant used to this day, and WC 846 is the allowable calcium carbonate percentage. 3) The people that nixed the proposed testing were the OSD's hand picked crew of project managers, not Springfield Armory, nor Frankfort Arsenal. 4) Here's the one that will make the disciples of saint Eugene mad. The underlying problem is Stoner's fault. Stoner's .222 Special cartridge was and is too small to provide the velocity required by the Army, 3300 fps, later reduced to 3250 fps at a maximum chamber pressure of 50,000 psi. The case should have been about 0.090" longer (.222 Magnum) in order to do this with a good buffer for production variability. The lack of volume leads to a very narrow band of propellant properties that required select lots of IMR propellant to meet the velocity and pressure requirements. And, being picky about propellant lots is not an option in full scale ammunition production. In fact, the problem was so bad the allowable pressure had to bumped up 2000 psi, and they still had trouble meeting the requirements, to the point that no company would bid on the 5.56mm production until ball propellant was introduced. Stoner's error is still with us today in the form of 62,000 psi max pressures to get required velocity out of 62 grain solid copper bullets. All this information is in "the bible", Stevens' and Ezell's tome of the subject. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 7:22:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In case you didn't notice, it's 2018 not 1964. Springfield Armory, the real one, were the main saboteurs and they closed long ago. Quote HistoryQuoted:
In case you didn't notice, it's 2018 not 1964. Springfield Armory, the real one, were the main saboteurs and they closed long ago. Quoted:
there's actually some good information in this thread, aside from the zealotry and religious diatribe and worship at the altar of No-Forward-Assist vs. those that drink from the Chalice of the FA. 1. how the pin breaks: from riding the FA while BCG going rearward. or wall banging (banging into the wall/barricade, not gamer shooting through the wall). 2. subtle: the failure might not manifest itself right away, but could happen later, perhaps next shooting session, even different shooter. This is evidenced by the swearing on the stack-of-bibles and all-that-is-holy that "I dinndo nuffin", didn't touch the forward assist when it broke, probably was the previous bloke. the 2nd point implies that when the pin is caused to fail from 1st point, that perhaps it might not be a 100% failure, maybe 90% failure, but still operator induced. And that the remaining 10% failure could be just from the vibration and shock of continued shooting, and then the innocent party is left holding the bag. sure are a lot of religious figures of speech here. it's almost as if some folks believe that when you get to The Pearly Gates, Saint Peter is going to ask you if believe in the FA or not, and so it's a mission to gain as many converts as possible. almost a GD discussion. kinda funny, certainly humorous to spectate, but still yet, informative. thank you, gentlemen. IT WAS NOT “OPERATOR INDUCED!” |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 7:47:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:The upper was being fired for the first time, I was observing it being fired from the bench. So how did he fire it with the Forward Assist engaged?
IT WAS NOT “OPERATOR INDUCED!” |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 8:23:57 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IT WAS NOT “OPERATOR INDUCED!” It was either pushed forward by the operator during the firing sequence (operator induced), the rifle was so gunked up that the spring couldn't overcome the resistance of said gunk if the operator pushed the FA forward during loading (operator maintenance), the FA spring broke (operator maintenance), or the roll pin failed (operator/builder maintenance). From the photos posted the rifle didn't look especially dirty, the FA itself is fully extended, and I've never seen a roll pin break without significant force applied. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 10:49:17 PM EDT
[#30]
If I removed every part from a rifle that I’ve seen break, I’d be left with a USGI rear sling swivel.
Given the failure rate of a forward assist, I think I’ll sleep just fine with them on my rifles. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 10:52:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So the FA miracled itself forward? It was either pushed forward by the operator during the firing sequence (operator induced), the rifle was so gunked up that the spring couldn't overcome the resistance of said gunk if the operator pushed the FA forward during loading (operator maintenance), the FA spring broke (operator maintenance), or the roll pin failed (operator/builder maintenance). From the photos posted the rifle didn't look especially dirty, the FA itself is fully extended, and I've never seen a roll pin break without significant force applied. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: IT WAS NOT "OPERATOR INDUCED!" It was either pushed forward by the operator during the firing sequence (operator induced), the rifle was so gunked up that the spring couldn't overcome the resistance of said gunk if the operator pushed the FA forward during loading (operator maintenance), the FA spring broke (operator maintenance), or the roll pin failed (operator/builder maintenance). From the photos posted the rifle didn't look especially dirty, the FA itself is fully extended, and I've never seen a roll pin break without significant force applied. |
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Posted: 9/12/2018 11:04:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Reading is fundamental, it was NEW!
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Posted: 9/12/2018 11:13:50 PM EDT
[#33]
Were you able to find the roll pin for the pawl? Wondering if maybe it wasn't installed or if the hole for it was slightly oversized allowing the pin to vibrate loose.
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Posted: 9/12/2018 11:55:49 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Were you able to find the roll pin for the pawl? Wondering if maybe it wasn't installed or if the hole for it was slightly oversized allowing the pin to vibrate loose. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 12:39:23 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Reading is fundamental, it was NEW! Well, OK. |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 1:40:20 PM EDT
[#36]
Ehh,, when I was in the military the Forward assist worked for me. 2 times when I was qualifying on the M4 I felt sand in the BCG when I was qualifying and used it because the bolt wouldt close all the way.. gave me an extra 2 points. works for me.
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Posted: 9/13/2018 7:58:52 PM EDT
[#37]
google "confirmation bias"
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Posted: 9/13/2018 9:30:16 PM EDT
[#38]
ouch!! if hes looking to rebuild it, cdnn has s&w uppers without forward assist and dust cover (with deflector) for like 40 bucks. i like the fa, but i cant say i use it often.
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Posted: 9/13/2018 9:51:13 PM EDT
[#39]
My sp1 carbine never came with a forward assist. I compensated for it by using a springco blue spring and ST-T2 buffer. I also replaced the extractor spring with springco’s extractor upgrade kit. It also keeps me from getting brass to face because I’m left handed. I’m tempted to try a red spring and H-3 buffer.
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Posted: 9/13/2018 9:54:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My sp1 carbine never came with a forward assist. I compensated for it by using a springco blue spring and ST-T2 buffer. It also keeps me from getting brass to face because I’m left handed. I’m tempted to try a red spring and H-3 buffer.  
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:06:25 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You used a blue spring and a Spikes H2 buffer to what now? Snap the extractor over the rim? Press check? Drain vapor-locked water from the bore? HNNNNNNNNNGGGGG? Press check?!? It’s not a 1911 and your not Steven Segal. You can take you smiley and shove it up you desk diving.... |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:11:01 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your reading comprehension skills are lacking. Press check?!? It’s not a 1911 and your not Steven Segal. You can take you smiley and shove it up you desk diving.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You used a blue spring and a Spikes H2 buffer to what now? Snap the extractor over the rim? Press check? Drain vapor-locked water from the bore? HNNNNNNNNNGGGGG? Press check?!? It’s not a 1911 and your not Steven Segal. You can take you smiley and shove it up you desk diving.... |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:17:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol I was messing with you. No need to get your roll pin in a snap......budum boom ting! |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:29:16 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Speaking of roll pins... I don’t know how deep in the parts bin colt reached in to get the carbine buffer for my sp1, but it didn’t have a roll pin (wasn’t even drilled for one) to secure the bumper on the end and it’s banana yellow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Lol I was messing with you. No need to get your roll pin in a snap......budum boom ting! |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:32:45 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For $38.99, I'll keep my forward assist! 
Forward Controls Design Low Drag Forward Assist |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:46:49 PM EDT
[#46]
That's pretty. Does it allow your rifle to reach supersonic speeds?
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:48:57 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's pretty. Does it allow your rifle to reach supersonic speeds? |
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Posted: 9/13/2018 10:49:24 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's pretty. Does it allow your rifle to reach supersonic speeds? |
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Posted: 9/14/2018 7:53:16 AM EDT
[#49]
I like the FA option, not going to give it up based on a rare malfunction. It's still good to share information on issues when they occur. That's how improvements to designs can come to fruition if needed
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Posted: 9/14/2018 7:55:19 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are PLENTY of reasons for not having/using a Forward Assist, this just adds to the list. -45Bravo -US Army Ordnance School "green mile" Instructor |
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