For those of you who worship at the altar of the Forward Assist....

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - For those of you who worship at the altar of the Forward Assist.... (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:02:34 PM EDT

Below is the picture of a Forward Assist Pawl off of a friends AR.....

The reason it’s sitting by itself is that it snapped of while the AR was being fired, apparently the roll pin failed. So you might ask yourself “What’s the big deal”?

Well it jammed between the BCG and the upper receiver resulting in a carrier that was 80% to the rear and no matter what was tried would NOT move forward.

So how do we get the weapon apart? Keep in mind at this point we don’t know why the carrier is jammed SOLID!

So the first thought is unscrew the receiver extension and use a mallet to move the carrier into battery.

NOPE! The receiver extension is one of the ones that have the “wings” that go on each side of the buffer detent projection.

So, the only solution is to cut the receiver extension off with a hack saw to access the carrier....

Well, keep in mind at this point we still don’t know WHY the carrier is jammed. So we now have the rear of the carrier exposed out of the cut receiver stub.

So we smack it with a mallet, IT DOESN’T MOVE!!!

So we get a brass plate and wail on it with a large hammer, it slowly moves with each blow.

We finally get the carrier forward and guess what falls out, yep, the Forward Assist Pawl.

And as to how tightly it was jammed...

Yep, it cracked the upper receiver. Yes this is a rare occurrence but it’s just one more reason I don’t have a Forward Assist (Jammer) on ANY of my AR’s!

Eugene Stoner
Pat Rogers
Clint Smith

All hated it and said to never use it.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:23:10 PM EDT

[#1]

And yet countless A1s, A2s, A4s, mk18s, mk12s, m4s, m4a1s (etc.) being wielded (or having been wielded) by grunts and POGs are chugging (or did chug) along.

Not even going to mention countless more civilian ARs.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:25:43 PM EDT

[#2]

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And yet countless A1s, A2s, A4s, mk18s, mk12s, m4s, m4a1s (etc.) being wielded (or having been wielded) by grunts and POGs are chugging along.

Not even going to mention countless more civilian ARs.

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Yet, it HAPPENED!

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:25:43 PM EDT

[#3]

I had the same roll pin break on a new Colt upper.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:31:27 PM EDT

[#4]

Opening the takedown pins and driving the upper forward wasn't an option?

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:33:00 PM EDT

[#5]

Meh.....parts break. Guns jam. Shit happens.

Who was the manufacturer?
I’ve never had a single issue with a fwd assist. Don’t think I’ll be afraid of having one on a rifle.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:34:11 PM EDT

[#6]

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Quoted:
Opening the takedown pins and driving the upper forward wasn't an option?

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Tried that, wouldn’t budge because the carrier was too far into the receiver extension. Trust me the LAST thing I want to do was take a hacksaw and a hammer to it.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:34:53 PM EDT

[#7]

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Quoted:
Opening the takedown pins and driving the upper forward wasn't an option?

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My lower has separate cutouts for the rear tab and fire control group.

Edit: Sorry, OP. I don't want to steal your thread.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:35:07 PM EDT

[#8]

I once had a primer blow out and it jammed the action, getting stuck between the snorkel and the charging handle recess in the upper.

The pawl breaking is something like a one in a billion event. Totally not enough for any reasonable man to say "Forward assists should be eliminated because this can happen!".

Let me guess...just because in one out of may be a million auto accidents, someone NOT wearing a seatbelt gets into an accident, is ejected from the vehicle, survives with only minor injuries, and his car goes on to get totalled and crushed beyond any hope of any survivors in the car, so in that ultra rare instance, it was better to NOT be wearing a seatbelt, so you think that it's safer to NOT wear your seatbelt. Am I right?

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:37:26 PM EDT

[#9]

There are PLENTY of reasons for not having/using a Forward Assist, this just adds to the list.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:38:19 PM EDT

[#10]

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Meh.....parts break. Guns jam. .

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very small sample size.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:40:51 PM EDT

[#11]

Nvmd. Order of Ops wrong.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:44:49 PM EDT

[#12]

Were y'all doing barricade drills?

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:51:01 PM EDT

[#13]

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Were y'all doing barricade drills?

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Shooting from a bench, no the Forward Assist wasn’t engaged and according to the owner had never been used.

Posted: 9/9/2018 7:52:12 PM EDT

[#14]

Well in my time in the service, I saw a couple of M1 Abrams tanks blow up as well because of defects in the shells they were shooting.

Shit happens, fortunately, not all that often.

I have used my FA in a SHTF situation and they worked as designed, so I don't mind them, one gun malfunctioning is not a reason to condemn all guns with the FA

Pursuit, you are painting with a wide brush right now, if he wants a new upper, I will be happy to send him one.

Posted: 9/9/2018 8:13:29 PM EDT

[#15]

I saw a similar thing happen years ago but it was not from the forward assist. It was a piece of a magazine lip that broke and lodged the carrier into the receiver extension. I also cut the receiver extension off to break the carrier free. I try to avoid receiver extensions with much of a retainer cut out and sand them off if possible. Some receiver extensions will have a deep channel cut out for the buffer retainer and your stuck using them as is. The castle nut and end plate are plenty of tension to keep the tube in place anyway. All my personal AR's have the receiver extensions installed without the buffer retainer cut on the tube.

As far as the forward assist goes, I still prefer to have it as to not have it. What happened in your case is not common and the chance of it happening is worth the risk, IMO.
I bet the pin was installed wrong or the wrong pin was used or the pin hole size in the upper was drilled wrong or the forward assist was damaged or installed wrong. I don't see a properly installed forward assist falling out and the pin snapping from no tension would only happen if the pin was rusted/ corroded or not fit properly.

Posted: 9/9/2018 8:14:38 PM EDT

[#16]

Components fail, regardless of brand.

Don't understand the hype.

Posted: 9/9/2018 8:48:02 PM EDT

[#17]

Brand???

Posted: 9/9/2018 9:06:38 PM EDT

[#18]

I have no idea, the upper was a separate purchase he made.

But as WTFShane pointed out he had the roll pin fail on a Colt upper.

Posted: 9/9/2018 9:09:38 PM EDT

[#19]

I personally don't see this as a valid reason to not have a forward assist. Maybe a simple PCI of the weapon before use would have prevented this? I personally have a habit of taking a quick look and fell of my firearms because what I was taught in basic training has stuck with me. A quick look over and function check of a weapon system can reveal a pin or bolt walking out.

Posted: 9/9/2018 9:35:27 PM EDT

[#20]

Sounds like we should be eliminating roll pins from our rifles, that's what failed here right?

Posted: 9/9/2018 9:59:27 PM EDT

[#21]

Another forward assist is evil thread...

Please let it go. If you don't want a forward assist then don't have one.

I've used them and have never had one fail. I'll keep it. You are just as likely to have any other freak failure, and far more likely to have one of MANY more common failures.

Posted: 9/9/2018 10:51:01 PM EDT

[#22]

I broke a bolt on a Colt.

OP is wrong. The forward assist is a necessary piece of the upper. Lack of and/or poor training is what causes people to not want it.

Posted: 9/9/2018 10:55:32 PM EDT

[#23]

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Quoted: Yet, it HAPPENED!

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"Events occur" (which is a polite way of saying sh*t happens.). No particularly good reason not to own an AR with a forward assist. If you don't want one on your AR, then by all means buy one without. But call it what it is - personal preference. If I refused to buy a firearm based on the fact that a part could fail and potentially damage the gun, my safe would be empty.

Posted: 9/9/2018 11:01:40 PM EDT

[#24]

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If I refused to buy a firearm based on the fact that a part could fail and potentially damage the gun, my safe would be empty.

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Posted: 9/9/2018 11:03:27 PM EDT

[#25]

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Yet, shit HAPPENED!

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As it does, from time to time.

Posted: 9/9/2018 11:13:34 PM EDT

[#26]

Quote History

Quoted:
I broke a bolt on a Colt.

OP is wrong. The forward assist is a necessary piece of the upper. Lack of and/or poor training is what causes people to not want it.

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+1

Posted: 9/9/2018 11:48:14 PM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
I broke a bolt on a Colt.

OP is wrong. The forward assist is a necessary piece of the upper. Lack of and/or poor training is what causes people to not want it.

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So you are saying your knowledge of the system is better than...

Eugene Stoner
Pat Rogers
Clint Smith

I KNOW my knowledge doesn’t equal theirs.

Posted: 9/10/2018 12:15:18 AM EDT

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
So you are saying your knowledge of the system is better than...

Eugene Stoner
Pat Rogers
Clint Smith

I KNOW my knowledge doesn’t equal theirs.

View Quote View All Quotes

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
I broke a bolt on a Colt.

OP is wrong. The forward assist is a necessary piece of the upper. Lack of and/or poor training is what causes people to not want it.

So you are saying your knowledge of the system is better than...

Eugene Stoner
Pat Rogers
Clint Smith

I KNOW my knowledge doesn’t equal theirs.

As I've said in all of these threads, I don't think either of you are correct.

What is correct, is its personal preference. A gun is a tool, a forward assist is a tool. Tools break, especially ones that exert pressure on a small pin. I will be keeping my forward assists. And I don't tell anybody that prefers the thumb/carrier method to snap the extractor over a case rim that they're wrong either. It is personal preference. It will always be, personal preference.

I wish this topic would just die there, but it won't.

Posted: 9/10/2018 12:31:07 AM EDT

[#29]

I forgot to put the buffer spring back in my lower one time. Went to function test it, and the bolt goes back...and stays back!

It wouldn’t move. I banged on it for an hour and it wasn’t going to move. I couldn’t get anything inside the ejection port, especially not to pull it forward. It sucked. Here’s what I did. I drilled a large hole in the end of the buffer tube, and then inserted a dowell rod into that and hammered it (had to do it really hard for some reason) until the carrier went forward.

Posted: 9/10/2018 1:03:13 AM EDT

[#30]

I don’t have this problem.

Attached File

Posted: 9/10/2018 1:13:37 AM EDT

[#31]

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Quoted:
I don’t have this problem.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/66926/7CD28718-ABCF-431A-A8CE-9033B5991767-667050.JPG

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Ya, ya, ya

I got one of those as well

Posted: 9/10/2018 1:23:34 AM EDT

[#32]

Quote History

Quoted:
I broke a bolt on a Colt.

OP is wrong. The forward assist is a necessary piece of the upper. Lack of and/or poor training is what causes people to not want it.

View Quote

This. I had to use it on my M-16A1 rifles in SE Asia in a shooting match with the bad guys and it works well. Also for clearing water out of barrel when coming out on crossings. Just crack the charging handle back a bit, drain and let forward with a tap on the forward assist. Much quieter than racking the damn thing.

Much more positive than the retarded-ass finger push on the carrier.

Posted: 9/10/2018 1:27:22 AM EDT

[#33]

I've seen this happen on an issued M4. And while it may be a rare occurrence, it's one of the few malfunctions that leaves the gun completely inoperable. Almost anything else short of a kaboom can be fixed quickly and in the field.

Posted: 9/10/2018 2:29:48 AM EDT

[#34]

Quote History

Quoted:
I broke a bolt on a Colt.

OP is wrong. The forward assist is a necessary piece of the upper. Lack of and/or poor training is what causes people to not want it

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To someone who has had no training on the system. What does it help with?

Posted: 9/10/2018 3:07:25 AM EDT

[#35]

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Quoted:
To someone who has had no training on the system. What does it help with?

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Nothing that cant be accomplished through other methods. This is a never ending argument here. It's been going on since I registered in 1999, and it will continue long after I'm dead. Most of my rifles have them, except for the lightweight build I'm working on. I've never considered them a liability. This is certainly a fluke deal, but it certainly turns your rifle into an expensive club if it happens.

Posted: 9/10/2018 8:42:28 AM EDT

[#36]

Quote History

Quoted:
To someone who has had no training on the system. What does it help with?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
I broke a bolt on a Colt.

OP is wrong. The forward assist is a necessary piece of the upper. Lack of and/or poor training is what causes people to not want it

To someone who has had no training on the system. What does it help with?

Pushing the bolt in battery if it doesn't go all the way when loading, press checking, or draining. It's NOT to beat a malfunction tighter into the upper, which is what many people do with it for some reason.

Pushing on the side of a smooth, oily carrier through the ejection port doesn't have any effect for me. A little push on the F/A does.

Posted: 9/10/2018 11:08:55 AM EDT

[#37]

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It's NOT to beat a malfunction tighter into the upper, which is what many people do with it for some reason.

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Because that's what the military taught people to do for decades.

Posted: 9/10/2018 11:14:44 AM EDT

[#38]

What AR was it?

Posted: 9/10/2018 11:53:27 AM EDT

[#39]

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Because that's what the military taught people to do for decades.

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Quoted:

Quoted:

It's NOT to beat a malfunction tighter into the upper, which is what many people do with it for some reason.

Because that's what the military taught people to do for decades.

Like I said. People with poor training don't know what the fuck they're doing.

Posted: 9/10/2018 12:07:23 PM EDT

[#40]

Pat Rogers said to NEVER use a FA?

Is that what he told all the military personelle he trained?

Either way it's a bummer.

I could go either way on this argument. But I'm that way about a lot of things. I personally like the idea of having a manual way to make sure a bolt is seated. And I'm not sure the recess in the bolt is good enough for that. But just about every other type of auto loading rifle has a way you can take your hand and make sure the bolt is all the way home. Which just makes sense to me. Because sometimes they get stuck. Even if just from a new magazine.

Posted: 9/10/2018 1:44:18 PM EDT

[#41]

I'll keep building guns with FA and usin them, they have proven handy for my uses.

Posted: 9/10/2018 1:56:39 PM EDT

[#42]

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Pushing on the side of a smooth, oily carrier through the ejection port doesn't have any effect for me.

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It would if you were stronger.

Pushing on the correct area makes it nearly impossible for your thumb to slip off, oily or not.

If you release the charging handle from far enough back (not enough to eject a chambered round) you still won't need the FA in the situations you named.

Posted: 9/10/2018 2:11:19 PM EDT

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
It would if you were stronger.

Pushing on the correct area makes it nearly impossible for your thumb to slip off, oily or not.

If you release the charging handle from far enough back (not enough to eject a chambered round) you still won't need the FA in the situations you named.

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Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:
Pushing on the side of a smooth, oily carrier through the ejection port doesn't have any effect for me.

It would if you were stronger.

Pushing on the correct area makes it nearly impossible for your thumb to slip off, oily or not.

If you release the charging handle from far enough back (not enough to eject a chambered round) you still won't need the FA in the situations you named.

My thumb barely fits in the ejection port, with gloves on, it doesn't at all. I'm plenty strong. I'm in the gym 3-4 days a week and on the range 1-2. Pulling back further on a press check is going to cause more problems than a forward assist ever did. You need better training.

Posted: 9/10/2018 3:05:40 PM EDT

[#44]

So from an armorer's perspective, how do we correct this malfunction if we encounter it? Clearly whacking it forward with a mallet isn't the answer if the result is a cracked receiver.

I would much rather discuss solutions than debate the merits of a FA.

Could we dremel the forward assist off from outside and then drill it out perhaps? A large enough drill bit may cut/remove enough of the broken pin and remaining assembly to allow it to wiggle free? Once we get the carrier moving perhaps we would then be able to get at the rest of it and remove it?

If the pawl is friction locked between the carrier and the inside of the upper, could we gently tap the carrier back and forth with a hammer and a dowel to loosen it up? One could use the exposed front of the carrier to tap the carrier back and the backs of the lugs to tap it forward. My idea being, rather than smash it forward which only increases the friction, gradually work it back and forth until the friction lock is broken. Once it loosens up a little, tilt the rifle so the FA faces the ground and give it a couple light taps to see if the pawl will drop back into place?

Any other ideas for how to solve this if we ever encounter it in the wild?

Posted: 9/10/2018 3:05:43 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
My thumb barely fits in the ejection port, with gloves on, it doesn't at all. I'm plenty strong. I'm in the gym 3-4 days a week and on the range 1-2. Pulling back further on a press check is going to cause more problems than a forward assist ever did. You need better training.

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Ok so just use the side of the tip of your thumb.

I've never caused any problems with my press/chamber checks, and I wouldn't need a forward assist to correct them if I did. It sounds like you'd be lost on a weapon without one. Those still exist, you know.

Posted: 9/10/2018 3:10:38 PM EDT

[#46]

On most of my AR’s I run a J.P. Enterprises QPQ carrier which is slicker than snot on oiled glass, in addition I run on every AR a Wolff XP action spring. One other factor is I run Mobil 1 10W-40 oil which is a Group IV base stock oil, that means it’s a truly full synthetic oil and it tends to stay on the carrier rails over time better than any other oil I’ve found.

You can ease the bolt SLOWLY forward and it will still go fully into battery and never fails to fully chamber a round.

I suppose if you don’t run your weapon squeaky clean (I do) and if your action spring isn’t strong enough you just might need/want the useless appendage.

BTW, my friends AR where the Forward Assist Pawl cracked the upper receiver had me install an Aero upper receiver without the Forward Assist. This was his own decision, he didn’t want to risk it again even though I told him he would in all probability never encounter this type of failure ever again.

Posted: 9/10/2018 3:10:40 PM EDT

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:
So from an armorer's perspective, how do we correct this malfunction if we encounter it? Clearly whacking it forward with a mallet isn't the answer if the result is a cracked receiver.

I would much rather discuss solutions than debate the merits of a FA.

Could we dremel the forward assist off from outside and then drill it out perhaps? A large enough drill bit may cut/remove enough of the broken pin and remaining assembly to allow it to wiggle free? Once we get the carrier moving perhaps we would then be able to get at the rest of it and remove it?

If the pawl is friction locked between the carrier and the inside of the upper, could we gently tap the carrier back and forth with a hammer and a dowel to loosen it up? One could use the exposed front of the carrier to tap the carrier back and the backs of the lugs to tap it forward. My idea being, rather than smash it forward which only increases the friction, gradually work it back and forth until the friction lock is broken. Once it loosens up a little, tilt the rifle so the FA faces the ground and give it a couple light taps to see if the pawl will drop back into place?

Any other ideas for how to solve this if we ever encounter it in the wild?

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Remove the forward assist, just drive out the pin and pull out everything you can. Then shine a light down the tunnel. If you can see where the pawl is caught you may be able to work the bolt carrier in the proper direction to get it loose. That's what I've done when I encountered this malfunction.