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Posted: 8/11/2017 11:48:15 PM EDT
[#1]
 LARB Ar-15 Buffer vs Standard Design vs VLTOR A5: Does the Design Make a Difference? ETA: Found this one. https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/716043_L-A-R-B--Linear-Alignment-Recoil-Buffer---Thoughts.html |
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Posted: 8/11/2017 11:59:32 PM EDT
[#2]
Very interesting deep dive.
Thanks. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 12:35:42 AM EDT
[#3]
Good video. Looks like a nice product. Why not test an H2 buffer though? 4.7oz would probably produce even slower cycling, or surely at least about the same, and at a third the cost. So the only major benefit (besides the slight weight savings) of this new buffer is its anti-tilt design right? Not worth it to me at the moment, since I already have an anti-tilt BCG and an anti-tilt buffer and am not having problems, but hope to see more innovation like this though.
I think the main thing I learned was that I don't need an A5 or rifle stock to help smooth out my SPR build, since a heavier buffer will produce nearly the exact same result. The slowing of the cycling rate spreads out the impulse over a longer time, hence less felt recoil. I'd be interested to see a similar video comparing carbine, mid, and rifle length has systems and how they affect the cyclic rate, but it might be harder to get an apples to apples comparison considering the varying standards of the gas hole. My particular interest is getting the smoothest shooting SPR possible, so I currently have a rifle length gas system on a 18" barrel and an H2 buffer, with the idea that both should slow the cycling about as much as possible (adding an adjustable gas block is the next logical step). |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 1:02:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good video. Looks like a nice product. Why not test an H2 buffer though? 4.7oz would probably produce even slower cycling, or surely at least about the same, and at a third the cost. So the only major benefit (besides the slight weight savings) of this new buffer is its anti-tilt design right? Not worth it to me at the moment, since I already have an anti-tilt BCG and an anti-tilt buffer and am not having problems, but hope to see more innovation like this though. I think the main thing I learned was that I don't need an A5 or rifle stock to help smooth out my SPR build, since a heavier buffer will produce nearly the exact same result. The slowing of the cycling rate spreads out the impulse over a longer time, hence less felt recoil. I'd be interested to see a similar video comparing carbine, mid, and rifle length has systems and how they affect the cyclic rate, but it might be harder to get an apples to apples comparison considering the varying standards of the gas hole. My particular interest is getting the smoothest shooting SPR possible, so I currently have a rifle length gas system on a 18" barrel and an H2 buffer, with the idea that both should slow the cycling about as much as possible (adding an adjustable gas block is the next logical step). |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 2:54:53 AM EDT
[#5]
Nice test. It should be noted that the change in cyclic rate reflects a change in average bolt carrier velocity. It does not reflect changes to the acceleration curve in either stroke direction. Does this design delay the unlocking of the bolt more than a conventional buffer? Unknown at this point. A conventional buffer also slightly delays the counter-recoil stroke, giving the magazine more time to position the next round. This design may do the same thing with the different material and shape synthetic tip. I do wonder how the H1 buffer would have faired with the LARB's buffer tip installed.
What is the reason for the extra screw in your lower? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 7:05:13 AM EDT
[#6]
Honestly I would have liked to see a standard buffer 4oz or over 4oz to see if the rate drop increased more per Oz the heavier it got. Also unless the gun was cleaned between each test a second base line done after to see if the rate was close to the same on a dirty gun.
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Posted: 8/12/2017 10:12:08 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 8/12/2017 11:55:23 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice test. It should be noted that the change in cyclic rate reflects a change in average bolt carrier velocity. It does not reflect changes to the acceleration curve in either stroke direction. Does this design delay the unlocking of the bolt more than a conventional buffer? Unknown at this point. A conventional buffer also slightly delays the counter-recoil stroke, giving the magazine more time to position the next round. This design may do the same thing with the different material and shape synthetic tip. I do wonder how the H1 buffer would have faired with the LARB's buffer tip installed. What is the reason for the extra screw in your lower? The rear bumper design is probably a significant part of this design, and probably helps on the rear end of the cycle (pun intended) Putting this bumper on the H1 is a good idea. I'll check it out. That would be a good way to evaluate the individual components of this design. Putting the standard bumper on the LARB would be a necessary part of that test. The extra screw is for the auto sear lever for the ZM Weapons full auto upper. Allows a folding stock with full auto function while folded. The upper for this set up has an 11" barrel. Really cool set up. :o) |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 12:10:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Honestly I would have liked to see a standard buffer 4oz or over 4oz to see if the rate drop increased more per Oz the heavier it got. Also unless the gun was cleaned between each test a second base line done after to see if the rate was close to the same on a dirty gun. 30 rounds does not get this rifle dirty enough to affect the rate, especially with the BCG I used. I did let the rifle set and cool off between test because I was uncertain it the heat would affect the rate of fire. When I got back to the shop and cleaned the rifle it was barely dirty. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 12:12:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryYes, that is them. Very small company from what I understand.
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Posted: 8/12/2017 12:12:38 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryYes. ETA - Beat by 24 seconds. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 1:14:20 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am thinking about machining out some material on the weight to get an exact match in weight. Removing mass from the LARB's internal buffer will likely have a disproportionate effect on its effectiveness, due to the interaction of the weight and the spring. Boring a hole in one of the weights of an H2 buffer to match the LARB weight would be a fairer comparison. But in this test .2 ounces doubled the slowing effect on slowing the rate of fire. The added friction of the recoil spring under dynamic conditions against the raised ring at the end of the buffer body, plus the different tip, probably has more effect than the 0.2 ounce increase in weight. Adding .8 ounces in the standard design = 5% change which was doubled with only .2 ounces more weight. I am definitely going to investigate this further. Snip. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 3:30:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. ETA - Beat by 24 seconds. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 3:31:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, that is them. Very small company from what I understand. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 3:39:41 PM EDT
[#15]
I enjoyed the video. I would like to see his buffer rebuilt with an aluminum body and tungsten center buffer.
I would also like to see high speed video of the bolt closing. That would let us see how much bolt bounce each buffer had. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 3:44:50 PM EDT
[#16]
Here is a disassembled A5H2 buffer. It has a small spring that biases the weights forward.
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:01:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Another great video, mbell!
Is the reduction in rate of fire due to the LARB's internal design or is it due to the bumper design/material? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:07:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I enjoyed the video. I would like to see his buffer rebuilt with an aluminum body and tungsten center buffer. I would also like to see high speed video of the bolt closing. That would let us see how much bolt bounce each buffer had. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:08:54 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is a disassembled A5H2 buffer. It has a small spring that biases the weights forward. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/57761/6ad3488f__1_-278549.jpg |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:09:27 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another great video, mbell! Is the reduction in rate of fire due to the LARB's internal design or is it due to the bumper design/material? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:13:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Any benefit to a DIY hydraulic buffer ?
Meaning - inject mineral oil or similar or more stable fluid into the standard buffer and seal up? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:17:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Aluminum doesn't hold up well to the rear of the bolt opening/closing/firing. Made several. I do have a titanium version and I do have tungsten one piece weights. Bolt bounce from my videos is in par with standard mil spec buffer. And it runs in FA, which FA is notorious for not tolerating bolt bounce... One other comparison I would like to see. Take the L.A.R.B and put it in the A5 tube with the A5 rifle spring. Then put a spacer behind it inside the spring. This will directly compare the L.A.R.B to the A5 as the springs will be the same. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:32:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Another great video, mbell! Is the reduction in rate of fire due to the LARB's internal design or is it due to the bumper design/material? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:35:57 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I enjoyed the video. I would like to see his buffer rebuilt with an aluminum body and tungsten center buffer. I would also like to see high speed video of the bolt closing. That would let us see how much bolt bounce each buffer had. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 4:36:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is a disassembled A5H2 buffer. It has a small spring that biases the weights forward. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/57761/6ad3488f__1_-278549.jpg |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 5:05:39 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One other comparison I would like to see. Take the L.A.R.B and put it in the A5 tube with the A5 rifle spring. Then put a spacer behind it inside the spring. This will directly compare the L.A.R.B to the A5 as the springs will be the same. |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 5:19:17 PM EDT
[#27]
Awesome review man. Awesome product.
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Posted: 8/12/2017 7:36:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This makes zero sense. It was never designed to mix and match none carbine parts. Also the collapsed spring length of the A5/rifle WILL NOT fit inside the carbine length buffer body. SOLGW tried this and it won't work. Just not a feasible or worthwhile option. To directly compare the A5 attributes to the L.A.R.B. you can put it in an A5 length buffer tube with an A5 spring. To prevent the carrier and buffer from cycling too deeply you put a spacer in the back of the spring. Instead of the buffer impacting the receiver extension it impacts the spacer nestled inside the spring. I would measure the difference in length on the inside of the standard and A5 buffer tube and then cut an aluminum spacer the length of the difference. Most people who put spacers in buffer tubes use delrin, but that might affect recoil properties slightly as it will be softer than aluminum. BTW, have you thought about making your buffer in an A5 length? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 8:33:28 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An A5 spring is a standard rifle spring. If you stick it in a carbine buffer tube it won't allow the bcg to fully cycle rearward. If you stick a standard buffer in an A5 length receiver extension, the bcg can cycle too deep and the carrier key will impact the lower. To directly compare the A5 attributes to the L.A.R.B. you can put it in an A5 length buffer tube with an A5 spring. To prevent the carrier and buffer from cycling too deeply you put a spacer in the back of the spring. Instead of the buffer impacting the receiver extension it impacts the spacer nestled inside the spring. I would measure the difference in length on the inside of the standard and A5 buffer tube and then cut an aluminum spacer the length of the difference. Most people who put spacers in buffer tubes use delrin, but that might affect recoil properties slightly as it will be softer than aluminum. BTW, have you thought about making your buffer in an A5 length? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 8:39:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Your completely misunderstanding the diameter of the spacer. Diameter of the spacer must be smaller than the inside diameter of the buffer spring. The spring goes around the spacer and has the full compression length of an A5 buffer tube.
The only point is to get a more complete and direct test between the A5 and L.A.R.B. Is that extra 1% performance of the A5 because of the A5 buffer itself, or the spring system? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 8:52:26 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your completely misunderstanding the diameter of the spacer. Diameter of the spacer must be smaller than the inside diameter of the buffer spring. The spring goes around the spacer and has the full compression length of an A5 buffer tube. The only point is to get a more complete and direct test between the A5 and L.A.R.B. Is that extra 1% performance of the A5 because of the A5 buffer itself, or the spring system? |
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Posted: 8/12/2017 11:43:05 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Your completely misunderstanding the diameter of the spacer. Diameter of the spacer must be smaller than the inside diameter of the buffer spring. The spring goes around the spacer and has the full compression length of an A5 buffer tube. The only point is to get a more complete and direct test between the A5 and L.A.R.B. Is that extra 1% performance of the A5 because of the A5 buffer itself, or the spring system? |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 8:58:14 PM EDT
[#33]
I modified the LARB to weigh exactly the same as an H buffer and test with piston uppers. I also swap out the rear bumpers to isolate their effect on bolt velocity. Second field test with the L.A.R.B.
https://youtu.be/zOmpH-UcZlQ |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:49:21 PM EDT
[#34]
Hey Mike, I just finished your video. I think the problems you experienced are due to bolt bounce. The stainless buffer body is practically like adding weight to your carrier while the internal buffer weight is reduced. This is further exacerbated by cutting .2oz from the internal buffer weight.
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:54:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey Mike, I just finished your video. I think the problems you experienced are due to bolt bounce. The stainless buffer body is practically like adding weight to your carrier while the internal buffer weight is reduced. This is further exacerbated by cutting .2oz from the internal buffer weight. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 9:58:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Yeah, it's a bit odd. I would get the manufacturer to ship a tungsten weight and re-test.
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:01:03 PM EDT
[#37]
How does the cam pin channel and the firing pin shielding cut compare between the superlative bcg and the wolf? There may be some dynamics their making one more susceptible to bolt bounce.
ETA: and firing pin protrusion? bcg weight? |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:36:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, it's a bit odd. I would get the manufacturer to ship a tungsten weight and re-test. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 10:36:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Black Jack Buffer Ball AR-15 Recoil Buffer
The Blackjack Buffers Ball AR-15 Recoil Buffer will reduce recoil impulse and prolong the service life of your firearm. This is accomplished by stopping the bolt from directly contacting the receiver. This abrupt transfer of energy can affect zero on scoped rifles. The AR-15 Recoil Buffer is manufactured from an advanced polyurathane that will decelerate the bolt more gradually, reducing the felt recoil and allowing for quicker set-up for the next shot. Installation is a breeze. You can feel the difference the first time you shoot it. Model: 108 / BJB AR Manufactured by: BlackJack Buffers 
Black Jack Buffers Ball PC AR-15 $9.99 Power Custom AR RECOIL~BUFFER - Reduces recoil and muzzle climb more than OEM buffer. - Provides graduated deceleration - Will fit semi & select-fire models - No drilling or special tools required Model: PC AR-15 Shipping Weight: 1lbs Manufactured by: Power Custom 
Q: Why do you offer different colors? A: Mostly personal choice. I offer buffers in different grades of hardness. Softer buffers reduce more felt recoil, harder buffers tend to last longer. (Most of my buffers are now only produced in the teal color which is somewhere in between the old green and black and is of a better grade material.) |
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Posted: 8/19/2017 1:48:34 AM EDT
[#40]
Thanks Mike's for the further testing! Very interesting results, even for myself. First I would like to state the obvious that an issues only arose after the factory buffer was modified. Every feature/component of the LARB was designed to work with each other as a unit. And it was designed to run very consistently in a wide range of ARs, which was also proven. And Mike did confirm this is the case. Just as I designed it. The issue with the SA piston upper could be a few things, not sure unless I had it in hand. But, like any product, the LARB is on a fine line and pushing the AR system to its modified higher performance limits. And it may not run 100% in every possible combination. I do however think the SA upper would be 100% reliable in semi auto with my LARB. I've asked Mike to confirm this. And I've seen the blackjack buffer caps. Not a bad design, mine is better I believe. And much higher quality. That I'll say. Also, I did send Mike a spring spacer from the LARB adjustable weight kit, so that he can tune and adjust the LARB weight.
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Posted: 8/19/2017 7:11:26 AM EDT
[#41]
Well I have been thinking about why the issues with the Superlative Arms upper and the thing that I have overlooked is the bolt I have in that particular upper. I have a "Reliabolt" which has modified lugs. The lugs may be more prone to unlocking and bolt bounce. I will take out the reliabolt and change to mil spec. I am still racking my brain to think of other reasons.
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Posted: 8/20/2017 8:34:54 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Black Jack Buffer Ball AR-15 Recoil Buffer The Blackjack Buffers Ball AR-15 Recoil Buffer will reduce recoil impulse and prolong the service life of your firearm. This is accomplished by stopping the bolt from directly contacting the receiver. This abrupt transfer of energy can affect zero on scoped rifles. The AR-15 Recoil Buffer is manufactured from an advanced polyurathane that will decelerate the bolt more gradually, reducing the felt recoil and allowing for quicker set-up for the next shot. Installation is a breeze. You can feel the difference the first time you shoot it. Model: 108 / BJB AR Manufactured by: BlackJack Buffers http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/images/blueAR.jpg Black Jack Buffers Ball PC AR-15 $9.99 Power Custom AR RECOIL~BUFFER - Reduces recoil and muzzle climb more than OEM buffer. - Provides graduated deceleration - Will fit semi & select-fire models - No drilling or special tools required Model: PC AR-15 Shipping Weight: 1lbs Manufactured by: Power Custom http://powercustom.com/store/images/ARbuff.jpg Q: Why do you offer different colors? A: Mostly personal choice. I offer buffers in different grades of hardness. Softer buffers reduce more felt recoil, harder buffers tend to last longer. (Most of my buffers are now only produced in the teal color which is somewhere in between the old green and black and is of a better grade material.) |
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Posted: 8/20/2017 9:13:04 AM EDT
[#43]
I know this is slightly off topic but to not start a new thread while this one is at the top of the page. Does anyone know if I can use an ar10 buffer tube and put an A5 buffer and spring to use on an AR15. I have a Larue 308 extension that now isn't being used and I'm wondering if I can use it w the a5 system.
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Posted: 8/20/2017 9:17:45 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I know this is slightly off topic but to not start a new thread while this one is at the top of the page. Does anyone know if I can use an ar10 buffer tube and put an A5 buffer and spring to use on an AR15. I have a Larue 308 extension that now isn't being used and I'm wondering if I can use it w the a5 system. |
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Posted: 8/21/2017 2:34:52 AM EDT
[#45]
Is this the thing where in another thread some guys got on the guy who made it and told him he didn't know what he was talking about and that he was basically selling snake oil?
Those guys apologize yet? |
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Posted: 8/22/2017 8:10:05 AM EDT
[#46]
Have you tried using the Geissele Super 42 Braided Wire Buffer Spring combo? I'd be interested in seeing the result against the stock L.A.R.B..
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Posted: 8/22/2017 9:30:12 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you tried using the Geissele Super 42 Braided Wire Buffer Spring combo? I'd be interested in seeing the result against the stock L.A.R.B.. |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 8:38:38 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you tried using the Geissele Super 42 Braided Wire Buffer Spring combo? I'd be interested in seeing the result against the stock L.A.R.B.. |
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Posted: 8/23/2017 8:44:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Also keep in mind guys, while full auto testing is a good way to test the quality, craftsmanship function (to a point) and carrier speed (aside from a simple slow motion video). The LARB was never designed, nor intended to be marketed to full autos. It was designed very specifically and marketed to SEMI AUTO weapons. Don't put too much weight on a stoppage in full auto. It may work, but it wasn't designed for that. That's Amraments official stance. In a personal note, I run the absolute piss out them in full auto. But every once and a while, we find certain set ups in full auto only, don't like it. And I know that it's a frequency/harmonics thing. I've done the testing. But it's all non-issues in semi....
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Posted: 8/24/2017 6:55:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a customer a while back say either it didn't work or he didn't like it. Can't remember, I don't see why it wouldn't work. I personally use a Strike Industries flatwire spring in my rifle and LARB. I love it. |
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