Everyone disregard what the OP has stated about barrel life.

It's not a true test, means nothing.

Even the MR556 that key holed at 10k rounds.

Thanks Ron!   The Kaboom (or mostly lack thereof) is quite interesting to me.  There are numerous threads on this forum of people having Kaboom's - supposedly with factory ammo.  Yet your range - with enough round count to equal about half of this forum combined - has only experienced Kabooms with defected barrels and/or with remanufactured ammo?   That's pretty interesting.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see if Colt bolts hold up longer than the others.  

Blain, did you see how he said he 20"er's didn't lose any parts?  If I'm reading that correctly......  I guess it's not significant if it's just because the round count is a lot lower.   But it's something to consider.  The whole "how much is a carbine harder on the bolt/bcg" question.  I doubt I'd ever shoot enough for it to matter though.



Excellent thread and it was very nice of the OP to take his time to share his knowledge.  Thank you.

Yes, I sure did.  I have heard similar things from the crowd at the retro and A2 forums too.  Bolts that have 30k+ rounds on them, action springs that have never needed to be replaced after thousands of rounds, barrels with almost all the rifling worn out that still shoots combat accurate groups, etc.  

The military found the same with their tests, with the M16A4 having something like 1/3rd the stoppages of the M4.



At a third the stoppages of the M4 carbine on average, that would put the full size 20" AR right up there in reliability with the piston driven alternatives that the Army was testing a few years back.

i seriously hope you don't think that the 2007 dust tests were accurate

The competitors were allowed to use their own mags and ammo as well.

Nope, I'm counting the 2002 tests which I quoted first that showed the M16A4 having 1/3rd the stoppages of the M4.

the pic you posted was from the 2007 dust test

Do you read posts or just look at pictures?

Alright. It's been established. 15 yards is the distance we shall measure accuracy from here on out. You heard it here folks!

And to add to our new formula for testing, just one barrel from one host weapon is all that's needed to prove overall performance of an entire machining process.

Well. That was easy. Glad we got it all squared away, and put this debate to rest...

...but in all seriousness, continue to fight for the few. Continue to ignore engineers, machinists, and testing.

Frankly, I could care less. Every time this debate pops up, it's just you and the same few supporters on the one side of the fence. You four can keep on keeping on, and the rest of us will as well...

I hear a couple folks bring that particular test out everytime they want to use it's flawed results as their facts.

Let me ask this question, if this test really was so conclusive, how many militaries have since converted back to 20" muskets?  Did that test persuade the MARINES to not use the M4 instead of the M16?

And, there has never been a definition of "shot out barrel" that works for everyone. I'll bet 99% of the barrels replaced as shot out, are not really shot out. I know I changed out many high dollar benchrest barrels well before they were "shot out".

Henderson Defense can follow their own lead in chosing when to consider their barrels worn out. Function must always be the first consideration when accuracy meets their needs, accepting safety is not compromised..

You and I can define our needs, they can define theirs.

I personally do not prefer HF barrels, even though I own several. It's good to have choices, but HF barrels have never proven worthy of their extra cost to me.

Edit- Sorry to the OP for any derail. Your thread is very informative and appreciated.

Danged dubletap again, instant double tap...

Clearly the XM8 was the way to go!

did you post incorrect information on purpose, or was it accidental?

Don't ruin a good thread please.

It'll happen. The tech forums are a fucking joke now with thousands page dick jokes with a few pictures peppered in here and there. Henderson should make a thread in their industry forum (if they have one, I didn't check), and lock it from responses.

 

Otherwise, like most of the other threads in the AR tech section, this thread will become diluted with bullying and jackasses perpetuating marketing hyperbole without any factual support.

"Diluted with bullying" coming from the guy who I've maybe seen just twice in my entire time on these forums actually post something that wasn't entirely negative and combatitive to whom he was speaking to...

Though I agree that it's well beyond time to let this thread go on as it was originally intended. Some great and stellar info has already been shared, and we all look forward for more to come.

OP should get their own Industry Forum for sure.

I'd be very interested in seeing you test the LMT Enhanced bolt, as well, especially in short barrels.

Try a search and count again.

 

This coming from someone who can't make a post without bragging or justifying his own purchases.


BTW, since you argued that the larger commercial DD gas port on their 10.3" barrels were just fine, I noticed you sold yours and bought Westernsport .070 gas port replacement.


I understand your feelings are hurt that barrels other than CHF are not keyholing for many tens of thousands of rounds. But why don't you keep your sadness about that to yourself and let Henderson post the facts about their machine guns since this is their thread.


Awaiting snarky rebuttal since there is NO WAY you can stand to have anything but the last word.


Ready, go!

LMAO!

I sold a 10.3" DD barrel with a factory pinned LPGB from an upper that I replaced with a 10.3" DD barrel with a factory pinned FSB.

LMFAO! I went from a .082 gas port 10.3" DD barrel with a pinned LPGB to a .082 gas port 10.3" DD barrel with a pinned FSB is all.

You know what they say about assumptions right...

I now own 4 complete uppers with .082 gas port 10.3" DD barrels. I've since then begun putting together a fifth 10.3" DD upper, and acquired a .070 10.3" DD barrel to have a little variety...God forbid!

And I like how you have continued to manipulate my words from that thread you referenced. I clearly stated in that thread not that the .082 gas port was superior, but that the CHF DD barrels were superior to the other alternative factory 10.3" barrel offerings from other manufacturers. I explicitly stated in that thread that if a company like BCM offered a BFH 10.3" barrel with a .070 gas port, that I'd surely opt for one. I said that DD was the best option for a factory 10.3" barrel, and that I only use CHF barrels. Go ahead and read through that thread again if you'd like.

On both counts, you will quickly find out that everything you just mentioned is entirely assumption based on one count, and entirely false on the other count.

I am definitely a fan of KAC products as well as all the other highly regarded manufacturers recommended typically on this site but, I believe the claim is that there has never been a reported broken bolt on any commercial SR15. I am pretty certain KAC has tested these to it's failure point and I'm also pretty sure they've have broken a few in suppressed full auto testing.

I do know that when they were first commercially released and everyone was very hesitant about the proprietary bolt, Trey Knight posted that he would replace the bolt for free on anyone's gun that broke an E3 bolt. This was back in 2008/2009 and I have still yet to hear of a broken bolt being reported.




I would also agree with Blain that if anyone has reservations about investing in an AR like the SR15 with proprietary parts, the LMT Enhanced Bolt is definitely a viable option so, I would like to see one of those tested as well. I had an enhanced bolt in my 10.5" SBR build that had 15k rounds shot 100% suppressed and the bolt kept on ticking. Ended up selling that upper or I would have loved to test it to failure.

It would be interesting to find out whether VLTOR extension provides improvement in lifetime for the BCG.

Ok, not in this debate - but I lol'd.

I'm assuming you are referencing the test blain was referring to.  You've got two rebuttals going on in your  post, I think.  I think all my point was, and blain's was that I THINK the rifle is easier on the bolt / bcg.  And apparently the SBR's are really hard on gas tubes.  According to the OP.  I think it's common knowledge that this is the case.  And I think what happens is that the more compact package of the M4 outweighs the extra wear and tear on the bolts.  As I'm sure in the military they are serviced so that it shouldn't be a problem.  I still find it interesting and one might say it's an upside to the rifle system.  I like the find the upsides of a rifle because I like them moreso than it's carbine brethren.   But when it comes to AR's the closest thing mine have ever seen for action is hunting and target shooting.  

The upsides to the M4 are obvious but it's still worth noting that it's harder on parts than rifles are.  From what I can tell.  

It does make you want to carry some spare parts.  And of course if you're into rifles, or muskets as you put it,  the buttstock can house a few...    I've never tried, can a whole BCG and bolt fit in the rifle buttstock?  

In Marine tests done in 2002 95 of the failure were magazine induced and 76 were failures to extract, the failure to extract problem in M4 of the period was caused by Colt using the same extractor spring and spring buffer for the M4 and A4 (since corrected).  There was also a bad lot of Okay Brand Magazines that had a bias in the follower that often cause failures to feed off the left feed lip.

Another aspect of the AR/M4 platform that we have managed to break are some quad rails. We've used some very cheap Korean-made quad rails that continue to work and we've had very expensive free-float quad rails from two premier mfg's fail. The construction of the Korean units are heavy, screwed together with six machine screws and they work. The other brands are very lightweight, expensive and still my personal favorites but the welds and areas around the barrel nut have cracked.

Our customers hold on for dear life most of the time so there is a force pushing forward and down (vertical foregrip) and the stock is locked against their pectoral muscle/chest plate along with their upper arm exerting a downward force almost in a "bending" fashion. Nobody was too surprised about the free float rails cracking because of the way customers hold on so tight.

ETA: The old-school GI-issue KAC rails continue to do the job.


V/R
Ron

Ever tried (or had any issues) with the DD RIS II rails? Reason I ask is they're the current .mil contract rail for the SOPMOD kit (so being used on all the SOF guns) and for a lot of us they're our favorite rail. Since they're produced specifically for a mil contract (like the KAC rails) instead of being produced to be "lightweight" for the consumer market, curious how they'd stand up to your environment.

Just messaged one of the RSO's and he said that we have not lost any of the RIS rails.

I was going to start another thread regarding optics but the optics forum doesn't get much traffic.Should I just discuss it here in the AR Forums since all of our AR/M4's have optics??? Let me know what you guys think.

V/R
Ron

Optics woud be an interesting subject, especially if you have data concerning budget optics on hard-use guns.

I am very interested to hear your experiences with optics...

Have you ever noticed damage to the buffer tube, or buffers on your M4s and shorties?

Respect for Ron and the fact he has access to high round count weapons.  Maybe he can speak to what I am about to say at a greater length.  

That said, civilians blowing through rounds full auto sickens me.

Everything gun related in Vegas (besides SHOT, which has its nauseating moments) is made to make money.  Not even remotely educate civilians on military grade firearms.  It's basically a "take a picture of me with this gun" and the whole thing lasts under 15 minutes (if even).  

Sad thing is, civs walk away thinking they have an appreciation for the kind of hardward they just used when it is anything but the case.  I don't know Ron's operation and maybe he's one of the few out there that has some ethics behind his business, but most don't.  See 9 year old girl with uzi.

Really?

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

[Deleted]

Thanks, Ron, for these informative posts. This is a treasure trove of useful information. I have a couple quick questions.

1. How do the AR15s hold up in general as far as cycling reliability and how do they compare to other long guns on your range? I saw you mentioned that you don't keep an official MTBF log, but are there any general noticeable trends in FTFs/FTEs/other non-parts breakage related failures in your AR15s and other centerfire rifles? What seems to be the single most reliable design?

2. How do the AR15s handle high volumes of steel cased ammo if you use any? Does it cause any noticeably faster wear on the rifles?

3. Have you had any upper reciever cam pin channels show significant wear at all?

4. I've got to ask: what are your personal choices in "go to"/home defense/shtf rifles/AR15s based on the overall performance of the firearms on your range?

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to share your experiences with us. I think the mods should sticky these threads and clean out some of the useless bickering.  

My apologies if you already covered any of these questions .

Eta: my vote for the optics discussion thread staying here in the AR tech forum just because more people will participate in it.

I'm not picky about where the optics discussion is held - as long as I can get a link to it

You couldn't be any further from the truth with your opinion but I will enlighten you about what we do and how we do it.

First, every single day that I am there (and I work six days a week at least 10-12 hours a day) I hear "oh my God.. I had no clue that's what it's really like" or "how did those guys do it during (insert WWII, Korea, Vietnam, OIF, OEF)" and the "wow.. I never wanted to touch a gun in my life but that's the most fun I think I've ever had". The customers DO walk away with an appreciation that THEY have because 90% of our guests don't own a weapon, let alone have ever seen a real, functioning example in person. Their only knowledge of a gun is from a movie where some actor holds two Uzi's or AK's and sprays across the scene killing every bad guy in sight. My staff are allowed to talk ZERO politics with guests and it always puts a smile on my face when I hear "I am from NYC/San Francisco and we just don't like guns but wow... that was SO different than what I thought it was going to be like... can I buy something like this where I live".  

Now, add to the fact that over 90% (actually higher but I don't have the time to do the math) of my staff are either prior service or still in the Guard/Reserves and the respect and appreciation factor just doubled with our guests. Every single one of my RSO's is prior service or Guard/Reserves (as well as all our drivers and my managers) and a majority of them are OIF/OEF combat vets. You can hear their appreciation when they start asking "so ALL of you were in the military.. my gosh, thank you so much for your service (and I would bet 99 out of 100 people have never uttered those words in their life).

As for the making money comment... I don't employ 58 people just to give me something to do, of course it's to make money just like any other business model. It's called capitalism and that's what we do. I don't judge people for their occupations because as long as it's legal and you feel comfortable with it, all the power to you.

I deal with GI's everyday that have heavy baggage they brought home with them from Iraq and Afghanistan. Nobody ever says the "PTSD" word because the minute you do, you're a "faggot" or "pussy". Meanwhile, as the employer I see it through their eyes and hear it in their words. I feel that I have a VERY generous policy towards PTO and if things are bugging you, take it. It also means that if you need to change from RSO to driver or driver to armorer, then so be it. It's put us in a bind more than once but since I claim we provide a "military experience", I as the employer, am also working in a "military experience". Everyday isn't sunshine and roses but I wouldn't trade a single one of my staff because they each bring their own "military experience" to work with them and that is what's made us so successful. I could go on and on about my staff because I know each of them by their name and they continue to raise the bar on what I think model employees should be. Quite a few of my guys are still in their twenties and medically retired from injuries they sustained while overseas. It lays heavy on my heart how these young men are so physically and emotionally damaged (IED's, blast injuries, falls, etc) but we adjust OUR schedule around them, not like most standard businesses.

Lastly, there are places like the ones you described here in Vegas. I know for a fact they are in it for the money and it's just an equation of how many customers can they get through the door and how fast can they get them through. They have the "gun girl" RSO's with hot pants, fishnet stockings and low-cut tops and that's 100% fine with me. They are providing a service to customers and they providing jobs. My problem is when they endanger employees and customers with shitty safety practices. We try to avoid hiring staff from other ranges because nobody wants retreads from places with bad practices but occasionally there are some gems among them. I know exactly how many ranges can give two shits about employees and lead hazards, throwing away filters contaminated with lead right into the garbage, writing employees up and firing them for having high lead levels (so OSHA doesn't find out how bad things are) or the TENS OF THOUSANDS of dollars we spend each month to ensure a safe environment for both my staff and guests. That may seem like a stretch to some of you but trust me, I would rather be spending that kind of money each month on something else but it what it is. It's the cost of doing business and keeping my staff safe.

As for the little girl in Arizona, the day that happened I had SO many of my RSO's come up to me and say, "damn Doc, you're right about those mini subguns". My staff had always asked for them (and the new RSO's as they came on board) but I always told them no little subguns unless we have a front strap for the wrist AND a suppressor. I must give credit to Tony D over at The Gun Store because he's the one that advised me specifically against the micro or mini Uzi's because of the rate of fire and transfer of weight with the heavy bolt causing the weapon to act like a teeter totter. I do have MAC's (.45, 9mm,.380) but again, they have huge and heavy Bower's suppressors to keep them down. Also, my staff has ALWAYS had the discretion to choose if a customer is suited for a particular weapon. If my RSO's don't feel comfortable with the customer and the weapons they chose, they are getting substituted with something can do and I usually refund the customer as well. It's worth the extra ammo so everybody is comfortable.

One last word about my staff. I hired a new driver two weeks ago. He initially turned in an application four weeks prior but let one of my managers know that he had used marijuana three weeks prior. My manager told him that we drug test and it wasn't a good idea to submit an application. He did come back in after waiting about three weeks and my manager spotted him submitting the application. He notified me and I told him lets review his application before just tossing it. Everything looked good; infantry E5 who was running and gunning and DD-214 matched up with application. I told my manager to go ahead and interview him on the spot. After all was said and done about his service, he called him out on smoking pot. He admitted that he's had issues adjusting since being home and he was hoping that it would help him relax but instead made him more depressed. He said he heard about a place where it' mostly GI's working together in a military-style environment and he was hoping he would fit in. I told my manager to hire him on the spot and start issuing him uniform, boots and get him out for a whiz quiz and background check ASAP. Two days later he walked up to me and asked if he could talk. I said of course as my staff know that I have an open-door policy for personal matters. He told me that he thinks this is the best thing that's ever happened. He said he's tried to get jobs at other places but when you go from 100 miles per hour to zero it hits you hard. When just a couple months ago when you were shooting people down range and you have your boys with you everyday life gets turned upside down when you can't talk about it with fellow employees who will think you're crazy and going to do something stupid. He looked at me with those same eyes I get from so many of the staff and said thank you for doing this. He said he needed to get back in uniform, he needed to talk to guys who are on his level and have been there, done that and can cope with words that come out of his mouth.

So, I am 100% at ease with myself, my business practices, my staff and the experiences that I feel our guests truly do appreciate here at Battlefield Vegas.

V/R
Ron

 
Amazing response sir.


God bless you and your staff.

Wow, thank you for sharing everything. I have enjoyed reading about these high volume weapons as well as your business and its practices. If I ever land in Vegas again you have gained a customer. You certainly sound like an upstanding employer.

Semper Fidelis

Will work for food!!

Ron/Doc,
As a veteran (Navy 24 years...blue water C4I...mostly) I appreciate everything you are doing for your guys.  BZ.  As someone working on an MBA, I also salute your business acumen, I admire anyone with the stones to start a business.  
Thanks for the heads up on Federal.  As far as BCM goes, I am a satisfied customer, delighted with the product and service I received.  I think Paul B. is someone who you would like to shake hands with.  
I will visit when I visit Las Vegas.  

You mentioned a few items about maintenance and the lubrication products you and the armorers use, can you please shed some more light on the maintenance schedule you follow for AR platforms?  For example do you replace extractors and spring every x rounds and how often / what procedures for cleaning.  If it is all up to the armorer when they see weapon, I can understand that too.

Thanks again for taking the time away from your business and family to post some really great information.  Hope to see you this year or next.
R/
Mike B

Interesting that some of those free float light rails that are all the rave end up cracking and failing.  Granted they see heavy use with full auto fire, but you don't see the standard GI polymer handguards crack or fail under the same abuse correct?  Roughly how many rounds of full auto fire does it take to crack those expensive lightweight free float quad rails that are so popular?

Lightweight rails are built to be lightweight.  If durability is #1 for you, you are going to have to suck up the extra weight.  Its that whole compromise thing .  Not saying that the rails he is talking about are necessarily lightweight rails.. just saying

Forgive my lack of knowledge but what brand name are these cheap Korean rails that are GTG?