Ok I know that they are built so close to each other that it doesn't make a difference. I saw the video of the DD and Larry vickers and the tests. but can the BCM upper and lower do the same? I'm looking at a BCM mid length with a DD 12" rail. I want a rifle that can be an all weather / environment battle rifle that won't fail. Looked at pistons but every company has there own piston set up. Until it becomes a universal piston thinking is staying with DI. Any thoughts about BCM and why to go with or without them let me know.

Go BCM unless you like to call the mfg and talk to them.
Then go with DD.

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Both are good to go, both are battle ready. Daniel Defense makes all of their parts in house, whereas BCM has their stuff made by other manufacturers. Neither are bad, one is just better.

If you want my honest opinion I would say Daniel Defense makes the best out of the box ready to battle AR15 on the market today. Even better than colt! (yeah i said it).

Get whichever is cheaper.  Both are outstanding rifles.

How is BCM underwater? Can I put it into water and then fire it? Proving the bolt was closed of course. What about mud, sand, and dirt. Want something that is going to function no matter what The conditions are.

Dude...

Top shelf AR15s are top shelf AR15s.

Toss a coin or something.

So Daniel Defense makes a better rifle than BCM because they (supposedly) make ALL parts in house?  Olympic makes the majority of their parts in house as well, are they better than BCM too?  DD better than Colt also?  Please tell me what makes DD better than Colt and BCM?  I would say that all three companies make comparable products so we don't get into the "better than" or "just as good as" debates.

Planning on doing some deep sea shooting?  Seriously, try doing a search.  These questions are asked a million times and there are thousands of threads where the same questions are asked and answered.

let start with the hammer forged barrel....how bout that

then the rail that comes with the gun.....hmmm. seems a lot of people buy those now a days, and since DD has the new SOPMOD contract with Crane i think they win that category.

Maybe if Olympic was as good and made as nice of products as DD they would have some of those contracts too and we would all be buying Olympic arms and this discussion would be going differently now.

The fact that a company is making a part in house and they know everything about every detail involved in making that part tends to give them (the manufacturer) an edge on quality control and oversight.

And before you say daniel defense supposedly makes all of their parts in house, i might point out that there are a good number of threads out there that quote DD on what is made and what is not made in house.

Dont get me wrong, i would be fine taking any one of those, DD, BCM or COLT to a firefight any day. All of those are more than capable of getting the job done. Its just that Id rather have a Cold hammer forged barrel, a free float rail and a nice verticle grip a trigger guard and an after market stock on my out of the box choice.

p.s. In observation, i see your the first one to come to the defense of colt, and im sure many more will, but is that not just the same mentality we constantly here people criticism the military for. Do we not criticize the military for adopting the minds set of "we've always used this one and this way so we always will" can someone else out there not make a better product?

ETA: to many grammar errors to fix, im off to eat breakfast

Do a search online for "Filthy 14" and you will have your answer.  

 

I like DD stuff but BCM stuff is just as good.

Take your pick. Both are good companies to do buisness with and sale top of the line products you can depend on.

jesus, this place is a joke compared to what it used to be. the AR technical forums are now officially a subset of GD.

Same thing different logos. flip a coin both are about the same price $1200-1300
This is just an example


Daniel Defense M4 Carbine, XV EZ
   Lower Receiver: Mil-Spec with Enhanced Flared Magazine Well and Rear Receiver QD Swivel Attachment Point
   Upper Receiver: Mil-Spec with Indexing Marks and M4 Feed Ramps
   Barrel: Chrome Moly Vanadium Steel, Cold Hammer Forged, 1:7 twist, 16″ M4 Profile, Carbine Gas System, Chrome Lined, MP tested, and Mil-Spec Heavy Phosphate coated
   Chamber: 5.56 NATO
   Flash Hider: A2 Birdcage Flash Hider
   Bolt Carrier Group: Mil-Spec MP Tested, Properly Staked Gas Key
   Buffer: H Buffer
   Sights: Daniel Defense A1.5 Fixed Rear Sight; Pinned “F” Marked Front Sight Base
   Handguard: Daniel Defense EZ CAR Rail™ 7.0
   Buttstock: Mil-Spec Buttstock & Mil-Spec Receiver Extension
   Rear Receiver QD Swivel Attachment Point
   Magazine: MAGPUL 30 round PMag in Black
   Case: Comes with Custom Daniel Defense Full-Latch Impact Plastic Case
   Made in the USA!


BCM® M4 Carbine Mod 2
The Mod 2 Carbine includes a drop in tactical handguard system and a folding battle sigh
   BCMGUNFIGHTER™ Mod 4 Charging Handle
   Standard Carbine Length Gas System
   M4 Feed Ramp Barrel Extension
   M4 Feed Ramp Flat Top Receiver
   T-Marked Upper Receivers
   USGI 5.56mm NATO Chambers
   Independently Certified Mil-Spec 11595E Barrel Steel
   Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber
   Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish on entire barrel
   Mil-Spec F-Marked Forged Front Sights
   Taper Pinned Front Sight Base
   USGI Government Profile Barrels
   HPT (High Pressure Test, per Milspec) Barrels
   MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected, per Milspec) Barrels
   Bolt machined from Mil-Spec Carpenter No. 158® steel
   HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof)
   MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected)
   Shot Peened Bolt
   Chrome Lined Carrier (AUTO)
   Chrome Lined Gas Key
   Gas Key Hardened to USGI Specifications
   Grade 8 Hardened Fasteners Key
   Staked Per Mil-Spec
   Tool Steel Extractor
   BCM® Extractor Spring
   Black Extractor Insert
   Receivers Machined from Aluminum Forgings 7075-T6
   Receivers Hardcoat Anodize per MIL-A-8625F, Type III, Class 2
   BCM® Milspec 7075-T6 Receiver Extension
   USGI Mold M4 Stock Staked M4 Lock Nut
   USGI H Buffer (1 USGI Tungsten, 2 Steel)
   Magpul MOE Enhanced Trigger Guard
   Low Shelf for RDIAS installation
   Low Shelf for Accuwedge use
   Un-notched Hammer compatible with 9mm use
   Fire Controls marked SAFE and SEMI


Spikes ST-15 M4 LE Carbine starting@$849.95
   Spike's Tactical 16", 1:7 Twist, Mil-spec Barrel
   M4 Barrel Profile, Carbine Length Gas System
   F-marked A2 Front Sight Base, .750" Diameter Gas Seat
   Spike's Tactical Mil-spec M16 Bolt Carrier Group
   M4 Double Heat Shield Handguards
   A2 Flash Hider
   Mil-spec Lower Parts
   ST-T2 Tungsten Buffer
   ST M4 Stock

I'm not talking about accessories - I am talking about the core components of the rifle.  I can buy a DD rail for any rifle (and, may I add, that I do choose DD rails for my use).  Sure, DD has a contract to provide rails.  Guess what brand uppers those rails go on?  Hint - it starts with a "C."


Once again - all three manufacturers make comparable products to each other.  If people left it at that they would be much better off.

My DD has a better finish than my BCM, which would I guess make it hold up better to enviromental concerns. As far as going bang, both have done so without fail so far. Its not that my BCM looked like shit, its just the finish on the barrel and FSB was so thin, almost transparent in places.

I think I will get through life fine sticking with BCM, DD and Spikes. So unless they change course with how they want to run their businesses I do this. I figure out what I want at the moment, then look through the dealers I like to buy from, and find which of its in stock, at the price I can live with and buy it.



ETA Also as a sidenote one of the worst looking DD rails Ive ever owned got shipped out to me from BCM on my upper. FWIW.

fine then, you go buy a 1200$ colt and then slap a 300$ rail on there, BCM and DD still have better barrels

you make a good point with the upper..........but you and i know that is not the most important part on the gun when it comes to battle and running a gun hard. and hey, in your defense, neither is a damn rail.......but i am not about to sit here and say a non free floated barrel is going to shoot better than a free floated barrel, or argue the difference between throat erosion and barrel integrity in cold hammer forged barrels vs regular chrome lined barrels.

p.s. i KNEW i shouldn't have brought colt into this i just KNEW it

I have a BCM with a DD rail and a Colt BCG.  I think they are all good companies.  My next upper will be a DD MK18.  Two of my friends just got them from AIM and I missed mine by a few seconds.  Yeah, they went quick.

I just went through the BCM Vs DD decision process myself, I decided on the DD M4 V5.

ONE of the reasons I went with DD is that while I hear BCM CS is good, I also hear that BCM CS is conducted via email.

I prefer to be able to pick up the phone and speak with someone when it comes to CS and DD provides that.

your kidding?! aim got another run on those already!? wow i feel cool, i just got through putting a SBR upper together because I couldn't wait

to the OP, sorry for the bullshit bickering, on a personal note, i think these kinds of "heated discussions" bring out the best information about products and specs that otherwise would never be brought to the table. CTbuilder1 is a damn savy AR guy and has a lot of good info to add its when conflicting opinions clash that you usually learn the most about products, however, its not my intention to get into an actual argument with a fellow arf.com member. We all want to see everyone happy with their purchase and we are all on the same side

"How is BCM underwater? Can I put it into water and then fire it? Proving the bolt was closed of course. What about mud, sand, and dirt. Want something that is going to function no matter what The conditions are."

I AM an AR fan.  I AM NOT a fan of AKs, but if you plan to dunk your battle rifle in water, sand, mud and muck you just might want to have an AK instead.

As for the original question, I believe that either the BCM or DD will serve you well - as would a Colt, LMT or Spikes.  I suggest that you make your choice based on the options that you want/need at a price that you are willing to pay.

How is any AR underwater, mud, sand or dirt? It doesn't matter what brand it is. Do some research on this report back with your findings.

Sounds like the OP wants an AK. But as to the DD vs BCM thing, either way, you can't go wrong. However, we all know the answer, get both

I think a speargun would serve you better underwater.

There's some torture tests on youtube . did a quick search & found one w/ DTI & another w/ ST . Didn't see any w/ BCM or DD but if DTI & ST can take it I'm sure BCM is gtg . I'm not going swimming w/ my BCM unless I have too . I've seen other torture tests in magazines " you know , the kind you flip pages " . Last one I remember was a Sig AR w/ piston , it did well . Like others have said , BCM or DD , flip a coin . I've even seen AR's shot under water on youtube , I would not recommend that though .

Flip a coin.  

You do realize that BCM makes a hammer forged barrel as well, right?

^^ This, I think this video shows that the 5.56 round travels a whole 4 feet under water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MA1IFKwdAQ&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PLD57A7785FD85A47D

I'd go DD but BCM is just as good. I like the fact that DD offers a CHF barrel for the same price as BCM's std. It's a minor thing but an upgrade in my eyes.

Please don't bait the Colt fanatics. They'll drown you in kool-aid if you even try to hint at anything else being nearly as good as a Colt, not to mention being better!

OP asked about BCM and DD.

Curious how Colt and spikes got dragged into this...?

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The answer is whichever one that has model you need in stock...

I can't wait until I live near an underwater range.

I own complete rifles from both BCM and DD. Both are excellent. Get whichever is cheaper.

Both are top quality.  I always default to BCM, but wouldn't hesitate to use DD.  Or Colt.  

 

Sounds like BCM would be a great choice. As far as the underwater thing I meant it if the gun was to get droped in water for more then a few seconds, then fired how would it preform. Thanks for everyones input.

They sell some but I don't think they "make" them.

Notice there is always a rubber on the muzzle end of the AR barrel when doing dipping underwater tests. If not there is the possibility of a kaboom.

Both are good.  You are splitting hairs deciding but DD has a great customer support.

Wrong answer:

Another million dollar question...  

That is incorrect.  The rubber muzzle is there to keep mud from getting into the barrel, not water.  AR's are not water tight.  Water will get in, no matter what.
It will fire under water fully submersed in water, or above gound fully clear of water.  But above ground full of water is where you run into trouble.  
The rubber muzzle has nothing to do with kaboom's.

Whichever one is in the configuration you want, in stock, and cheapest is the better one between BCM and DD.  

I have a BCM BCG running in a Colt upper and lower with a DD10.3" barrel.  

I have a certain minimum standard of what I'm looking for.  If a company meets or exceeds that standard, I get what's available.  The brand name is irrelevant to me between  Colt, BCM, and DD.  

That being said, I wish DD and BCM would adopt the more "subdued" branding that Colt does.  Colt uppers and BCGs have some very obvious markers that you can tell the provenance from without being a huge, white, laser engraved billboard on an otherwise black surface.  

Granted... Krylon will forgive a great many aesthetic foibles, but it's still annoying to me.  I don't know why BCM can't just stamp "BCM" into their bolt carrier and engrave "MPB" on their bolts instead of slapping logos everywhere except for more advertising.  

~Augee

Can you see the logos when you are shooting?

DD,BCM,Colt,LMT your not gonna be undergunned in reliability,competent construction,specified and tested materials and parts.I live in a ban state so getting hold of pre-ban lowers and rolling my own is my thing.The 4 prebans I have been rebuilt using parts and assemblies from all 4 of them.No one of those manufacturers offerings have let me down.The best CS I ever got no hassle was BCM..I buy the majority of my stuff from them.

RIF.  

To answer your question, no- I can't see them when I'm shooting.  Especially under a coat of Krylon.

It doesn't annoy me because of the way it looks.  It annoys me because I don't feel like being a walking advertisement for any company, no matter how good or bad.    I also don't like when car dealerships print their information and shit all over licesnse plate holders, either.  I understand a company's desire to be able to verify that parts are their own, I just would prefer that they didn't try to make each user an impromptu advertisement.  I could give a shit what it looks like.  

~Augee

Neither BCM or DD make a battle rifle.

That being said I'd say flip a coin, cause they are both top notch firearms.

I too debated between DD, BCM and Colt (and a few others) for my first AR.  I ended up going with DD because it had all the options that I was looking for and was in stock locally for me to check out in person.  I could have gone another direction very easily though.  

That said, I am now thinking about a second AR and BCM is so far leading that consideration.

These threads that come up here nearly everday about some Brand..You people just buy what you want and can afford and you will be fine..All Firearms are good,the more you have the better...I am sure either choice will be great,probably not one bit of mechanical differance between either choice or 10+ other "top" makers you could choose from..They are all AR15s. We chose another Brand for no perticuliiar reason but it does what it is suppose to at a great price..  .There have been no great revelations in the Manufature of the AR,they are all made the same way they pretty much have been since the beginning of time, people just add their own little personal touches to them but they are still an AR15 inside no matter who puts their name on it..If its a good price and you like it buy the Damn thing..This RANT felt GOOD

Are you shooting your rifles 24 hours a day 7 days a week?

Agreed. Either one makes a great rifle. Finding the barrel profile I want in stock and the right price is what it would come down to to me.

Not sure why Colt got dragged into this. I find these top manufacturers to be about the same.

I can't comment on underwater shooting. But I'm sure Spongebob copier repairman will be along soon. But I hear he doesn't care for DD.

Nope.  And when I am not shooting them, I am probably not looking at them either.  I'm not overly offended by 1 sq/in logos on an upper receiver and/or bolt carrier.  This whole AR market has become more about building a toy to look at and photograph than to actually go shoot.  What a shame.