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Posted: 12/20/2010 8:59:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: RTUtah]
Originally Posted By PSYWAR1-0:

The Recce platform was something that sprung up within the NSW and 5th SFG communities that first became the Special Purpose Receiver built by Crane, which was supposed to be installed on any M4 lower. After a time when the perfect storm of the users wanting a match-grade trigger and the bolt-bounce issue was identified, the Special Purpose Receiver morphed into a complete rifle that was type-classified as the Mk12.

Mk12: A BRIEF HISTORY (as authored by "LGT" & "FL")

Mk12 Special Purpose Rifle (SPR)

Scoped versions of the M16 rifle existed as far back as the 1960s. Like nearly all historic military rifles, the M16 went through decades of efforts to improve its accuracy, both in the military and civilian marksmanship communities.

The need for the SPR dates back to the late 1980s and early 1990s when the 7.62mm M21 sniper rifle, a semi-automatic weapon of Vietnam vintage, was replaced by the M24 sniper rifle, a bolt action weapon. The M24 was originally specified to be a .300 Winchester Magnum, but the Army decided to field it in 7.62 NATO for a variety of economic reasons. This left the M24 in the unenviable position of being the worst of both worlds in the eyes of snipers at the time, since it lost the fast-shooing, semiautomatic capability of the M21, but did not gain the range advantage of the .300WM. This compromise left a vacant requirement for a fast-shooting semi-automatic sniper rifle. This need was most apparent in the US Army Special Forces (SF) community, since the other commands within the Special Operations Forces structure filled that need with Knights Armament Corporation's SR-25 sniper rifle.

Army SF, being prohibited by its leadership from procuring the SR-25, sought the next best alternative, namely a Special Purpose Receiver (SPR) kit to convert the Army SF M4 carbines into highly accurate rifles. In late 1998, at the request of SFC Steve Holland of 5th Special Forces Group, and the approval of the SOPMOD joint IPT, the Special Operations Peculiar Modifications (SOPMOD) Program Manager, Troy Smith, authorized the purchase of 5 sets of commercial items as an SPR experiment.

The original requirement was for USASOC, mainly the SF Groups, as WARCOM had the MK11, 7.62mm system. Once the SPR requirement was developed and demonstrated through experimentation, most of the other commands in USSOCOM added themselves to the Basis of Issue Plan (BOIP). The USSOCOM requirement for the SPR, with improved ammunition, was approved in July 1999, as part of the SOPMOD Kit, Operational Requirements Document, Version 5 (ORD 5).

Further initial development included several variants of the SPR and new ammunition that were compatible with the M4 carbine's lower receiver. It was found that standard issue M855 5.56mm ammunition was not consistent enough to meet the requirement. In 2000, based on an upgrade requirement to provide a match-grade trigger to the design, Mr. Paul Miller, the SPR project manager, discovered an opportunity to pick through over 15,000 M16A1s that had been sent to Crane for destruction. Realizing that these M16A1 rifles, some of which were virtually new, could be used as "free lumber" to build full SPR weapons, Paul selected several thousand rifles to be set aside for the new SPR project. The SPR underwent a minor but significant name change, with the R having originally stood for "Receiver" now standing for "Rifle"

The new weapon system was worthless without a matching round of ammunition to obtain the performance required. The PEO-SP USSOCOM authorized the new round that became Mk262 as part of the Mk12 system in August 2000. Paul Miller and his SPR team refined the 77-grain prototype ammunition and built approximately 124 SPR Rifles in the summer of 2001. These were finished just in time to ship out to Army SF in late October 2001, to be used in the first invasion of Afghanistan. The SPR rifles were extremely well-received, and the SOF combat units ordered hundreds more.

In May 2002, USSOCOM removed the Mk12 and other complete weapons projects from the SOPMOD Program and placed them under the newly-formed USSOCOM Weapons Program. The fielded weapons included two versions (Mk12 Special Purpose Rifle Mod0 and Mod1). Fielding has since been structured for Mk12 Mod1 Special Purpose Rifle only. This rifle is used by Joint USSOCOM Commands and the USMC in combination with M262 (AA53, 77 grain) ammunition. Formal fielding of the full-rate production version of the Mk12 rifle and ammunition occurred in May 2003 and was completed in FY '04.

In 2012, as the decade of war on terrorism was winding down and the SCAR weapon system began replacing the requirement for the Mk12, USSOCOM and Naval Special Warfare divested themselves of the Mk12 weapons system, and the Mk12 is now being looked at to fill a Designated Marksman Role within Brown Water Navy commands.
View Quote
* * * * * * * * * *

The following parts lists and substitution parts was compiled by lancecriminal86 over the course of a LOT of research. Read up and pay attention!

Below are the 100% .mil-spec parts lists to build a true SPR or Mk12 clone. Some of these parts are no longer manufactured and will require much effort and money to locate through forums and online brokers. Keep in mind the rifles were built off donor M16A1s, hence the prevalent A1 parts in the lower receivers and the BCGs. They were also first configured using parts available from 1998-2004, and most are inferior in some ways to newer designs. If this bothers you too much, STOP NOW.

The rifles were issued as a kit in a Pelican 1700 case with cutouts. The kits included the rifle with suppressor, optic, bipod, an Eagle TAS-1 UMSS sling (unobtanium and also absolute crap), with a Dewey 1-piece cleaning rod plus Otis cleaning kit, and a cutout for magazines. An operator's manual was also included, however these have not been officially released for public consumption. However, the manuals are out there, and some companies building Mk12 uppers include one. Whether these are official .mil operator's manuals or specially made is currently unclear as the manual itself still contains language that it is not for distribution.

- Alternate .mil-spec parts due to NFA, NLA parts, or changes in name/markings for current production in [brackets]

- Extra notes about parts or availability are in (parenthesis)

LOWER
Lower receivers were standard across the SPR/Mk12 variants and the only variations would be between grips, stocks, and buffers. Most were marked either Colt or GM Hydramatic. All other parts were the same in regards to the lower parts. One caveat is the trigger, as the program originally selected the Knight's Armament 2-stage Full Auto Match trigger. Later on, some issues regarding negligent discharges occurred, and Geissele SSF triggers ultimately found their way into the Mk12 family. Whether 100% of all Mk12s eventually received the Geissele trigger isn't clear, so either is acceptable.
  • Lower: M16A1 pattern [Nodak Spud NDSA1 or 80% re-profiled/finished/engraved]
  • Trigger: Knight's 2-Stage Full Auto Match Trigger or Geissele SSF [KAC semi-auto Match or Geissele SSA/SSA-E]
  • Grip: A1, A2, ERGO Original
  • Stock: Originally issued with A1 stocks, both solid D and trapdoor E types; as A1 stocks dwindled, A2 were used; ModH rifles rebuilt with Ace SOCOM stocks
  • Small parts: Standard M16A1 parts

UPPER
The upper receivers, which ultimately differentiate the four variants of the Mk12, have the most variation between each other.


Early SPR/Mod0
  • Upper: Colt, Diemaco, or Armalite marked, flat top, M4 feed-ramps
  • Barrel: Douglas 416r SS, 18" SPR contour, 1/7 twist, flats milled for PRi FSB (Compass Lake, Centurion Arms, High Caliber Sales, and PRi can all supply barrels that meet the appropriate spec minus FSB flats)
  • BCG: Colt M-16
  • Handguard: Precision Reflex Gen I carbon fiber free-float Handguard, rifle length (identified by button-head screws and one vent hole near barrel nut on lower half; no heat shields)
  • A.R.M.S. #38 SPR MOD Sleeve (either the PEQ version or with uneven spacing on the front  but not the full 1913 railed version)
  • FSB: PRi early folding front sight base and gas manifold, set-screw, with elevation wheel
  • Charging handle: PRi Gas Buster M-84 with military latch
  • Muzzle device: OPS Inc 12th Model brake/collar, and 12th Model suppressor [Allen Engineering AEM5 and brake/collar]
  • Rear iron sight: A.R.M.S. #40
  • Scope rings: A.R.M.S. #22 Medium rings, #22 Tactical Ring Cap and #22 Tactical Ring Rail (rings should not include "lever-stop" hump as produced later by A.R.M.S.)
  • Optic: Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR, M3 turrets, illuminated Mil-Dot reticle (use .308 turret) [Leupold LR/T 3.5-10x40 LR, M3 turrets, Illuminated Mil-Dot reticle]
  • Bipod: Versa-Pod with A.R.M.S. #42, or a Harris with A.R.M.S. #32 (Versa-Pod far inferior to Harris)
Late Mod0
  • Upper: Colt or Diemaco marked, flat top, M4 feed-ramps
  • Barrel: Douglas 416r SS, 18" SPR contour, 1/7 twist, flats milled for PRi FSB (Compass Lake, Centurion Arms, High Caliber Sales, and PRi can all supply barrels that meet the appropriate spec minus FSB flats)
  • BCG: Colt M-16.
  • Handguard: Precision Reflex Gen III carbon fiber free-float handguard, rifle length
  • A.R.M.S. #38 SPR-PEQ-2-3 Sleeve
  • FSB: PRi folding FSB, set-screw, .750 (original production had PRi's full address engraved on sight tower; those engraved with "PRi USA" are later manufacture)
  • Charging handle: PRi Gas Buster M-84 with military latch
  • Muzzle device: OPS Inc. 12th Model brake/collar, and 12th Model suppressor [Allen Engineering AEM5 and brake/collar]
  • Rear iron sight: A.R.M.S. #40
  • Scope Rings: A.R.M.S. #22 Medium rings (rings should not include "lever-stop" hump as produced later by A.R.M.S.)
  • Optic: Leupold 3-9x36mm TS-30, Mk4 MR/T 2.5-8x36mm TS-30A2, M2 turrets with Mk262 BDC, illuminated TMR reticle
  • Bipod: Harris with either A.R.M.S. #32 or KAC RAS bipod adapter
SPR/A, SPR/B, Mod1
  • Upper: Colt or Diemaco marked, flat top, M4 feed-ramps
  • Barrel: Douglas 416r SS, 18" SPR contour, 1/7 twist, flats milled for PRi FSB (Compass Lake, Centurion Arms, High Caliber Sales, and PRi can all supply barrels that meet the appropriate spec minus FSB flats)
  • BCG: Colt M-16
  • Handguard: Knight's Armament M4 Match FF RAS, rifle length (now called the SR15/16 Match FF RAS)
  • Gas block: NSWC Crane pattern (Badger Ordnance parkerized/NSN version is correct, has open front of gas tube hole)
  • Charging handle: PRi Gas Buster M-84 with military latch
  • Muzzle device: OPS Inc. 12th Model brake/collar, and 12th Model suppressor [Allen Engineering AEM5 and brake/collar]
  • Scope rings: A.R.M.S. #22 High rings (A.R.M.S. rings should not include "lever-stop" hump as produced later by A.R.M.S.)
  • Optic: Leupold Mk4 MR/T 2.5-8x36mm TS-30A2, M2 turrets with Mk262 BDC, illuminated TMR reticle or NightForce 2.5-10x24 (optionally with NightForce rings)
  • Bipod: Harris with KAC RAS bipod adapter (BRM-S, A.R.M.S. #32 could still optionally be used)

ModH, Mod "Holland"

  • Upper: Colt or Diemaco marked, flat top, M4 feed-ramps
  • Barrel: Noveske 16" Recon, mid-length gas system, profiled for OPS Inc. 12th Model brake/collar (will require aftermarket contouring of most barrels)
  • BCG: Colt M-16
  • Handguard: Precision Reflex Gen III carbon fiber free-float handguard, FDE, rifle length
  • Charging handle: PRi Gas Buster M-84 with military latch
  • Muzzle Device: OPS. Inc. 12th Model brake/collar, and 12th Model suppressor [Allen Engineering AEM5 and brake/collar]
  • Scope Rings: A.R.M.S. #22 Medium rings on PRi recce rail (rings should not include "lever-stop" hump as produced later by A.R.M.S.) or LaRue LT-104 SPR mount
  • Optic: Leupold 3-9x36mm TS-30, Mk4 MR/T 2.5-8x36mm TS-30A2, M2 turrets with Mk262 BDC, illuminated TMR reticle, Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR, M3 turrets, illuminated Mil-Dot reticle (use .308 turret) [Leupold LR/T 3.5-10x40mm LR, M3 turrets, illuminated Mil-Dot reticle]; S&B Short-Dot
  • Bipod: Harris with either A.R.M.S. #32 or KAC RAS bipod adapter
  • Iron sights: (apparently PRI were supplied but never used)

In the Wild
Naturally, once these rifles were issued to units, operators and even Marines used various non-issued parts. Here is a short summary of what has been seen:

Early SPR/Mod0:
Both Leupold 3.5-10x40mm and 3-9x36mm scopes have been used. Many have had carbine stocks like the old CAR-style, enhanced M4, SOPMOD Gen I, or even the Tactical DuoStock swapped on.

Mod1:
One 3rd SFG-issued rifle pictured with SSgt Robert J. Miller (MoH recipient) used an A.R.M.S #36 S-EX 5.56mm rail, and a Leupold M3X 10x fixed-power scope, possibly pulled from an M-24 or SR-25 rifle. Another has been seen with a Magpul PRS, LaRue mount, and a Premier Reticles 3-15x used by an AMU shooter, and a similar rifle was pictured on a FOB in a very posed-looking photo. Further, a USMC-issued Mod1 was seen using #22 Medium rings instead of High rings, and a LaRue mount has been spotted as well. Grips have varied from the usual A1, A2, and ERGO, and at least one Magpul MIAD has been used. As with the Mod0s, carbine stocks like the SOPMOD and M4 have been used on Mod1s.

ModH:
The Mod "Holland" was already a small-batch configuration, but even as soon as they were issued to 5th SFG units, some Ace SOCOM stocks were replaced with Magpul ACS and CTR stocks. Optics are basically anything existing in the unit's inventory, from S&B ShortDots still in the system, the 3-9x and 3.5-10x Leupold scopes from earlier Mod0s, and there's even a photo of an ELCAN on a Mod1 floating around. No non-magnified optics like EOTechs or regular Aimpoint M2/M4s, but Micros have been seen on offset mounts. Backup iron sights, as a whole, were almost entirely left unmounted. Grips were again the same usual selection.

Parts Alternatives for Clone Building
Many parts are rare, expensive, and/or both. Despite this, there are some alternatives to a 100% pure clone that will still provide the same visual look and performance. While not a museum-grade clone, most would be hard-pressed to discern the difference. Just know there are those of us out there that will haze and peer-pressure you into further moving your build towards a true clone.

Barrel:
Popular options are the White Oak Armament SPR barrel (rifle gas), BCM's SPR barrel, Rainier's Match and Ultramatch offerings (ensure it's the SPR contour with 12th Model profile), Ballistic Advantage's SPR barrel. Compass Lake Engineering can also spin a Mk12 profiled barrel with a Criterion chrome-lined blank, or even a Krieger, which was one of the original contenders for the program. The DPMS Mk12 barrels are NOT properly profiled for a clone.

Optics & Rings:
In the case of the Leupold 3-9x or 3.5-10x, it's generally okay to go for a non-illuminated version of either, sometimes with M1 or other turrets and reticles. As far as the NightForce scope, the 2.5-10x24mm is not generally released to the public anymore (with one recent exception through Sniper's Hide), so many use the 32mm or even 42mm versions with the #22 High rings. As for the rings, any of the recent produced A.R.M.S. #22s with the lever-stop humps are functionally the same, the desire for non-lever-stops is purely aesthetic when going for the most authentic look. As LaRue LT-104s have been seen in use, it is justifiable to use one depending on whether you have a specific rifle you want to copy, or even just if you absolutely cannot acquire #22 High rings.

A.R.M.S. #38 SWAN Sleeve:
The #38 family of sleeves are no longer available. Finding them secondhand usually cost $250-$300 easy, more for rarer early variants. Fortunately, PRi's copies of the sleeves look and function almost identically, with minor visual differences. PRi and other builders supply these currently for complete Mod0 builds.

FSB:
While the set-screw version of PRi's FSB is spec, most use the cross-bolt, clamp-style version. They are extremely robust, and when aligned and torqued, have been shown to hold strong enough that you'll probably shear your barrel extension pin or upper before it budges. This is mainly how Mod0 uppers are supplied by most vendors, including PRi themselves.

Suppressor, Brake/Collar:
Diverging from the OPS Inc. or AEM brake and collar will get you MAJOR flak. Trust me, I've been running an AAC SPR/M4 for years now and it took a LONG time to not get clubbed every time I posted it. The Allen Engineering AEM5 is basically the current production of the OPS Inc. 12th Model, as they were originally made by Ron Allen and his team in the first place. Only minor differences separate original OPS Inc. cans from AE cans, and these are only obvious to trained eyes.

As far as the rest, you can swap Colt parts out for any other .mil-spec parts, like BCM, DD, CMT, etc. Any billet uppers/lowers, funky BCG coatings, extended bolt releases, etc. are extremely frowned upon. Remember, once you start going down the path of building a "better" rifle rather than what was spec, you're quickly beyond clone territory and would have been better off building a custom 16" or 20" rifle. Cloning is generally viewed as all-in or not at all.

* * * * * * * * * *

Complete Mk12 Mod0 / Mod1 Uppers
Bravo Company Manufacturing
High Caliber Sales
Precision Reflex Inc.

Specific Mk12 Tech
Augee's side-by-side comparison of the original ARMS SWAN Sleeve and PRI reproduction PEQ Sleeves: bottom of p136
KOBK's side-by-side comparison of PRI Gen I, II, and III handguards, and Gen I and Gen II FSBs, and SWANs: middle of p137
Augee's Mod1 gas block tech: top half of p357
Glass1's Early Mod0 photo breakdown: middle of p449
tamboi's Leupold Vari-X, TS30, and TS30A2 scope history/lineage, and part numbers, p.792

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 6:39:27 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KGLaw] [#1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BlueDevilBrew:


Now I'm confused.

Are you saying the 112633's available today were issued to Marines?  And are you drawing a distinction between a Marine clone and a Mk12, as if they're different?  I haven't heard this, help me tamboi.

https://www.snipercentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/spr1.jpg
View Quote


Yes, on the M38 rifle.  The probable reason for Leupold retaining the TS30A2 identifier, despite being a different scope.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 6:46:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Into_the_Void] [#2]
When did the crossover from mildot to tmr happen?
When did the 3-9 become the 2.5-8?

Went out and zeroed my mod 1 w/ the 3-9 today.  Not a single regret ditching the big x50.
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 7:06:59 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
When did the crossover from mildot to tmr happen?
When did the 3-9 become the 2.5-8?

Went out and zeroed my mod 1 w/ the 3-9 today.  Not a single regret ditching the big x50.
View Quote


I think the last year of the 3-9 Mk4 was 2004.  Was a relatively short lived scope.  Mildot to TMR transition really didn't occur with Mk12s as far as I know. The Marines went with the TMR and M2s turrets for their Mod 1s. Army was Mildot and M3s all the way through the Mk12 program across the TS30 2.5-8, TS30A2 & commercial Mk4 3-9s and Vari-X III Tactical 3.5-10 scopes.

Link Posted: 1/5/2021 7:30:17 PM EDT
[#4]
Now that I have the proper glass, I really want the proper rings.  Still after all these years it's my favorite rifle in the safe.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 7:36:22 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TW56:


ricard13, Harms4x replied to my inquiry I sent to him thru the forum e-mail system regarding his faux AEM5 suppressors several months ago. He said he was planning another run. I decided to go a different route then the  faux suppressor and have a AEM5 that is currently in the NFA paperwork process. I recall Harms4x had a gun shop in TX that seemed to specialize in AK-47's.


You could try the yahoo e-mail address in his 2017 post.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/Equipment-Exchange/WTS-Ops-Inc-AEM5-Faux-Suppressors-167-00-Shipped/159-1717797/
View Quote

Ya, I’ve reached out multiple ways so we will see if I get a reply. I’m not wanting to buy four AEM5’s right now, but I also have a hard time not having a dedicated suppressor on everything I own.
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 7:43:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
Now that I have the proper glass, I really want the proper rings.  Still after all these years it's my favorite rifle in the safe.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/220444/20210105_181815_jpg-1765815.JPG
View Quote


Is that the recent Larue Leupold offering?
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 7:45:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stainlineho:


Is that the recent Larue Leupold offering?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By stainlineho:
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
Now that I have the proper glass, I really want the proper rings.  Still after all these years it's my favorite rifle in the safe.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/220444/20210105_181815_jpg-1765815.JPG


Is that the recent Larue Leupold offering?


Nope. Like hunterex said, that scope hasn't been made in 16 years
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 7:57:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
When did the crossover from mildot to tmr happen?
When did the 3-9 become the 2.5-8?

Went out and zeroed my mod 1 w/ the 3-9 today.  Not a single regret ditching the big x50.
View Quote


The 3-9 became the 2.5-8 in 2006, the earlier mk4's were 2003 in their brochure in 2004. In 2006 the tmr became available. They were still buying mildot models even after 2006.
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 8:01:49 PM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BlueDevilBrew:


Now I'm confused.

Are you saying the 112633's available today were issued to Marines?  And are you drawing a distinction between a Marine clone and a Mk12, as if they're different?  I haven't heard this, help me tamboi.

https://www.snipercentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/spr1.jpg
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BlueDevilBrew:
Originally Posted By tamboi:

67925 came out 2010, except for the tethered cap and tube markings basically the same as the 112633, both have the slab sided illumination housing. By that time, the mk12 program had dissolved. Not sure why Leupold reused #112633, those particular scopes imho, are simply not correct, although it is the same nsn as earlier models such as 67920 and 60150 which again didnt come around until the MK12 program was basically over. 112633 is perfect for a Marine clone, not on a MK12.


Now I'm confused.

Are you saying the 112633's available today were issued to Marines?  And are you drawing a distinction between a Marine clone and a Mk12, as if they're different?  I haven't heard this, help me tamboi.

https://www.snipercentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/spr1.jpg


I suppose I didnt put that in the right context, the early mk12 optics the leupold ts30 and ts30a2  have nothing in common with the 112633. Why leupold named the 112633,  the ts30a2 is probably just marketing.
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 8:08:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tamboi:


I suppose I didnt put that in the right context, the early mk12 optics the leupold ts30 and ts30a2  have nothing in common with the 112633. Why leupold named the 112633,  the ts30a2 is probably just marketing.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tamboi:
Originally Posted By BlueDevilBrew:
Originally Posted By tamboi:

67925 came out 2010, except for the tethered cap and tube markings basically the same as the 112633, both have the slab sided illumination housing. By that time, the mk12 program had dissolved. Not sure why Leupold reused #112633, those particular scopes imho, are simply not correct, although it is the same nsn as earlier models such as 67920 and 60150 which again didnt come around until the MK12 program was basically over. 112633 is perfect for a Marine clone, not on a MK12.


Now I'm confused.

Are you saying the 112633's available today were issued to Marines?  And are you drawing a distinction between a Marine clone and a Mk12, as if they're different?  I haven't heard this, help me tamboi.

https://www.snipercentral.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/spr1.jpg


I suppose I didnt put that in the right context, the early mk12 optics the leupold ts30 and ts30a2  have nothing in common with the 112633. Why leupold named the 112633,  the ts30a2 is probably just marketing.


This has always confused me.  Other than the illumination housing, how are they different?
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 8:12:25 PM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:


This has always confused me.  Other than the illumination housing, how are they different?
View Quote


The issued TS30A2 with the Mk12s is the same scope as your commercial Mk4 but with TS30A2 written on the side basically.

So Mildot, M3s, 3-9, 62GR turret, blended illumination housing.

The later TS30A2 (112633) is TMR, M2s, 2.5-8, 77GR turret, slabside illumination housing. Alignment lines and a battery cap tether added.
Link Posted: 1/5/2021 8:46:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Engineer5] [#12]
Issued TS30...











Link Posted: 1/5/2021 8:53:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Engineer5] [#13]
Same scope off the rifle...

J = 2001







Link Posted: 1/6/2021 3:21:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
When did the crossover from mildot to tmr happen?
When did the 3-9 become the 2.5-8?

Went out and zeroed my mod 1 w/ the 3-9 today.  Not a single regret ditching the big x50.
View Quote


Why?

I just picked up a 2.5-8 mk4 for a song and I'm not sure what to do with it. I had one before I had my mod 1 and tried it one my Holland. Didn't like it that much and got rid of it right away.

Guess I need to give it another chance now that I have a good load worked up for them and have switched from paper punching to steel smacking.
Link Posted: 1/6/2021 4:20:28 PM EDT
[#16]
Does anyone have a formal breakdown of the year-code for Leupolds?
Link Posted: 1/6/2021 4:52:34 PM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By j-dubya1:
Does anyone have a formal breakdown of the year-code for Leupolds?
View Quote


Not being snarky, google Leupold Scope Year Codes and it's under the Leupold FAQ on their website.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 12:01:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: oneofus] [#18]
ok to shed a little more light on the optic discussion.

I have data on a true ts-30 a2 3-9x, a commercial round body 3-9x, and a modern 112633 2.5-8x ( all pictures are in that order)

The ts-30 a2 and the commercial round body 3-9 both have mil dots while the 112633 has TMR

body to body there is almost no difference between the ts30-a2 and the commercial version. Aside from the ts-30 a2 marking, the ONLY difference externally is on the objective lens end there is no identification engraving in the ring on the ts-30 a2. the commercial is marked leupold mark 4mm 3-9x36 mr/t. The 112633 is marked, in white text the exact same, however i have seen these marked with engraving only and no white fill on other 112633. Also as pointed out earlier the 112633 has a slab body illumination housing, a tethered cap ( tether to body removed from this example). As well as laser lines for scope mounting.


On the body itself there are obvious  branding marking differences, and serial number location. I will note here on the commercial 3-9 the " leupold" is much lower than on the ts-30 a2 if you ever notice a ts-30 a2 mark that is trending very low it is possibly a commercial version that was later laser on as a fake. Also not the hex bolts used to tighten the elevation and windage caps, on the original OG stuff they are always black. on anything  newer they are silver. Also you can see the difference in the BDC engravings on the 77gr turret  used on the 112633, the text is larger and layout is different.


Finally the biggest difference of all is the Ocular lens. this is true for all 3-9 VS 2.5-8 & all 3-10 mk12 variants including Vari-x III. as you can see in this picture of the ts-30 a2 on the left and the 112633 on the right. The ocular lens is smaller on the 3-9 which does produce a smaller image.


Link Posted: 1/7/2021 12:14:49 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By SDMF_Rebel:
Now that I have the proper glass, I really want the proper rings.  Still after all these years it's my favorite rifle in the safe.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/220444/20210105_181815_jpg-1765815.JPG
View Quote

CAR stock is best stock. Looks great on the mod 1.

I think the 2.5-8x and 3-9x have the same actual magnification. If I remember correctly the 3.5-10x is slightly less than 10x on top in reality too. I’ve had at least 1 example of each and all things considered the 2.5-8x TMR is the best fit IMO.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 12:33:59 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By oneofus:
ok to shed a little more light on the optic discussion.

I have data on a true ts-30 a2 3-9x, a commercial round body 3-9x, and a modern 112633 2.5-8x ( all pictures are in that order)
https://i.imgur.com/wqye3SI.pngD
The ts-30 a2 and the commercial round body 3-9 both have mil dots while the 112633 has TMR

body to body there is almost no difference between the ts30-a2 and the commercial version. Aside from the ts-30 a2 marking, the ONLY difference externally is on the objective lens end there is no identification engraving in the ring on the ts-30 a2. the commercial is marked leupold mark 4mm 3-9x36 mr/t. The 112633 is marked, in white text the exact same, however i have seen these marked with engraving only and no white fill on other 112633. Also as pointed out earlier the 112633 has a slab body illumination housing, a tethered cap ( tether to body removed from this example). As well as laser lines for scope mounting.
https://i.imgur.com/a0cTV3O.png

On the body itself there are obvious  branding marking differences, and serial number location. I will note here on the commercial 3-9 the " leupold" is much lower than on the ts-30 a2 if you ever notice a ts-30 a2 mark that is trending very low it is possibly a commercial version that was later laser on as a fake. Also not the hex bolts used to tighten the elevation and windage caps, on the original OG stuff they are always black. on anything  newer they are silver. Also you can see the difference in the BDC engravings on the 77gr turret  used on the 112633, the text is larger and layout is different.
https://i.imgur.com/RenqIno.png

Finally the biggest difference of all is the Ocular lens. this is true for all 3-9 VS 2.5-8 & all 3-10 mk12 variants including Vari-x III. as you can see in this picture of the ts-30 a2 on the left and the 112633 on the right. The ocular lens is smaller on the 3-9 which does produce a smaller image.
https://i.imgur.com/WyBznco.png

View Quote


Nice writeup
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 2:19:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BlueDevilBrew] [#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By oneofus:
ok to shed a little more light on the optic discussion.

I have data on a true ts-30 a2 3-9x, a commercial round body 3-9x, and a modern 112633 2.5-8x ( all pictures are in that order)
https://i.imgur.com/wqye3SI.pngD
The ts-30 a2 and the commercial round body 3-9 both have mil dots while the 112633 has TMR

body to body there is almost no difference between the ts30-a2 and the commercial version. Aside from the ts-30 a2 marking, the ONLY difference externally is on the objective lens end there is no identification engraving in the ring on the ts-30 a2. the commercial is marked leupold mark 4mm 3-9x36 mr/t. The 112633 is marked, in white text the exact same, however i have seen these marked with engraving only and no white fill on other 112633. Also as pointed out earlier the 112633 has a slab body illumination housing, a tethered cap ( tether to body removed from this example). As well as laser lines for scope mounting.
https://i.imgur.com/a0cTV3O.png

On the body itself there are obvious  branding marking differences, and serial number location. I will note here on the commercial 3-9 the " leupold" is much lower than on the ts-30 a2 if you ever notice a ts-30 a2 mark that is trending very low it is possibly a commercial version that was later laser on as a fake. Also not the hex bolts used to tighten the elevation and windage caps, on the original OG stuff they are always black. on anything  newer they are silver. Also you can see the difference in the BDC engravings on the 77gr turret  used on the 112633, the text is larger and layout is different.
https://i.imgur.com/RenqIno.png

Finally the biggest difference of all is the Ocular lens. this is true for all 3-9 VS 2.5-8 & all 3-10 mk12 variants including Vari-x III. as you can see in this picture of the ts-30 a2 on the left and the 112633 on the right. The ocular lens is smaller on the 3-9 which does produce a smaller image.
https://i.imgur.com/WyBznco.png

View Quote


Great stuff.  Makes you wonder if the changes over time were based on feedback and repairs from Crane.  The battery cap, for example, is missing on a lot of the in field photos, so adding the tether makes sense.  The slab illum housing could've addressed durability issues there and the lens change might've improved field of view as issued buttstocks and use of body armor dictated over time.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 3:11:35 PM EDT
[#22]
The DoD photo of a Marine with a 112633 scope on what appears to be a Mk12 rifle in July 2013 considered a one off “in the wild”? Or can a 112633 scope be considered correct for a late USMC Mk12?
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 3:31:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TW56:
The DoD photo of a Marine with a 112633 scope on what appears to be a Mk12 rifle in July 2013 considered a one off “in the wild”? Or can a 112633 scope be considered correct for a late USMC Mk12?
View Quote


Got a link?

Here's a 112633 in the wild.  Exif data on the image shows Nov 2014.

Link Posted: 1/7/2021 3:33:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KGLaw] [#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BlueDevilBrew:


Got a link?

Here's a 112633 in the wild.  Exif data on the image shows Nov 2014.

https://i.postimg.cc/d3FbfvMJ/1-472.jpg
View Quote


That should be the same one he's referencing. It's been tagged as July 29th, 2013.
Link Posted: 1/7/2021 6:24:36 PM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BlueDevilBrew:


Got a link?

Here's a 112633 in the wild.  Exif data on the image shows Nov 2014.

https://i.postimg.cc/d3FbfvMJ/1-472.jpg
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BlueDevilBrew:
Originally Posted By TW56:
The DoD photo of a Marine with a 112633 scope on what appears to be a Mk12 rifle in July 2013 considered a one off “in the wild”? Or can a 112633 scope be considered correct for a late USMC Mk12?


Got a link?

Here's a 112633 in the wild.  Exif data on the image shows Nov 2014.

https://i.postimg.cc/d3FbfvMJ/1-472.jpg


Yes, that is the photo I was referencing.  Another DoD photo of the Lance Corporal Wilson in Afghanistan on the same date.
https://www.defense.gov/observe/photo-gallery/igphoto/2001119841/
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 3:12:13 AM EDT
[#26]
That scope may have been a replacement or even T&E as the Corps was in the process of killing the Mk12 as it was taken. Time wise it falls after Leupold made the changes and added the 112633 to the actual Mil and LE catalogs and added it to the NSN for the Mk12 optic.

The stuff I've heard from the guys that actually pulled the Mk12s apart and sent the lowers off to captain crunch in the Marines lines up that this would have been while all that was going on. 2012 and onwards is when that was happening, someone in the FB group saw the lowers with his own eyes around then. Like the Army SF and Ranger side there may have been the odd one seen collecting dust in the armory in the following years but effectively the Mod 1 was pulled out from line infantry units around then and unlike the SF, that means they aren't coming out anymore because someone on the ODA still thought it was cool.

If you want to do this properly then I suppose anyone with a 112633 would have to set up their Mod 1 as a Marine rifle, no paint, yet their overpriced Leupold down the driveway, and then say you specifically built a 2012/2013 last deployment gun.
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 8:15:41 AM EDT
[#27]
Form 3 from Capitol Armory for my AEM5 finally got approved. Finally going to start the long Form 4 process
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 9:03:27 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yumago:
Form 3 from Capitol Armory for my AEM5 finally got approved. Finally going to start the long Form 4 process
View Quote


Nice! May your wait be quick and short!
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 10:56:26 AM EDT
[#29]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lancecriminal86:
That scope may have been a replacement or even T&E as the Corps was in the process of killing the Mk12 as it was taken. Time wise it falls after Leupold made the changes and added the 112633 to the actual Mil and LE catalogs and added it to the NSN for the Mk12 optic.

The stuff I've heard from the guys that actually pulled the Mk12s apart and sent the lowers off to captain crunch in the Marines lines up that this would have been while all that was going on. 2012 and onwards is when that was happening, someone in the FB group saw the lowers with his own eyes around then. Like the Army SF and Ranger side there may have been the odd one seen collecting dust in the armory in the following years but effectively the Mod 1 was pulled out from line infantry units around then and unlike the SF, that means they aren't coming out anymore because someone on the ODA still thought it was cool.

If you want to do this properly then I suppose anyone with a 112633 would have to set up their Mod 1 as a Marine rifle, no paint, yet their overpriced Leupold down the driveway, and then say you specifically built a 2012/2013 last deployment gun.
View Quote

One of the Plt Sgts in my old unit painted their Mk12s. It was right towards the ends of the Mk12 era
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 10:59:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 11:23:56 AM EDT
[#31]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Yumago:
Form 3 from Capitol Armory for my AEM5 finally got approved. Finally going to start the long Form 4 process
View Quote


Oh good.  Maybe mine will get approved soon. Have a tax stamp waiting on my Silencer Shop account for it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 12:17:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Paulie771:


Oh good.  Maybe mine will get approved soon. Have a tax stamp waiting on my Silencer Shop account for it.
View Quote


Just purchased my tax stamp this morning from Silencer Shop. Hopefully can start the process next week for it.
Link Posted: 1/8/2021 7:55:01 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 12:51:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: KGLaw] [#35]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By latheman:




I thought issued optics were illuminated?
View Quote


TS30 was issued with early Mod 1s. It's a non-illuminated 2.5-8 with a fairly unique profile.   Has the Leupold European type turret housing and classic focus ocular housing versus the fast focus of the non-illuminated MR/Ts.
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 1:02:36 PM EDT
[#36]
Thanks for the info,  much appreciated.
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 1:12:08 PM EDT
[#37]
Thanks to everyone for their replies and information.
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 5:30:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Link Posted: 1/9/2021 6:53:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Maddy21] [#39]
Finally found some #22 mediums and mounted my scope today. I noticed some play in one of the ring bases, is this normal for these rings? This is my first set of ARMS rings.

Link Posted: 1/9/2021 10:43:20 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Maddy21:
Finally found some #22 mediums and mounted my scope today. I noticed some play in one of the ring bases, is this normal for these rings? This is my first set of ARMS rings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43fSrWLEJbU
View Quote


Mine was the same way, absolute junk. I "fixed" mine by filling the dovetail with devcon. ARMS said they would fix them but I'll personally never trust them again.

I ended up buying some Badger rings like I should have done in the first place!

And no that's not normal!
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 4:31:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By latheman:


Mine was the same way, absolute junk. I "fixed" mine by filling the dovetail with devcon. ARMS said they would fix them but I'll personally never trust them again.

I ended up buying some Badger rings like I should have done in the first place!

And no that's not normal!
View Quote


Thanks, that’s what I was afraid of. It took so long to find some new in stock that I’m hesitant to send them in to ARMS. When you used devcon, did you just smear it in the dovetail gap an wipe off the excess? Has it held up pretty well to the recoil?
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 5:14:41 PM EDT
[#42]
I disassembled them and coated the dovetail,  you can't tell I did it. As far as holding up,  I have no idea i haven't put them back on but devcon is some tough stuff. I was more worried about the rings being out of alignment.  I guess they'll just sit in a drawer because I wouldn't feel right about selling them to someone.
Link Posted: 1/10/2021 9:16:22 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By latheman:
I disassembled them and coated the dovetail,  you can't tell I did it. As far as holding up,  I have no idea i haven't put them back on but devcon is some tough stuff. I was more worried about the rings being out of alignment.  I guess they'll just sit in a drawer because I wouldn't feel right about selling them to someone.
View Quote


Gotcha, thanks again!
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 12:43:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SaturationTech] [#44]
If anyone is looking for an AEM5 in Houston, Collector’s Firearms had 2 in the case Saturday. I think one was $609 and one was $669. No idea on why the apparent pricing difference... The tags were a bit obscured and the place was pretty busy, so I didn’t ask.

Edit: both gone now.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 3:05:19 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BurtSaun1049:

@Nikiel09 , I believe we need a family picture from you!

View Quote


I need to find a new house to move into- most of my stuff is in storage currently. But once I do, I’ll post some pics.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 7:27:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tamboi] [#46]
One on the right is correct?

Link Posted: 1/11/2021 7:43:50 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tamboi:
One on the right is correct?

https://www.ar15-backup.com/media/mediaFiles/28561/20210111_142652_jpg-1775353.JPG
View Quote


That's the one.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:17:31 PM EDT
[#48]
@SaturationTech  Thank you for the lead!  For anyone else looking Collector’s firearms now has one AEM5 in stock as of 19:17 EST  its a smooth body   the other one vaporized when i called
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:51:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SaturationTech] [#49]
No problem. If I hadn’t just picked one up from Capitol Armory, I’d have seen if I coulda gotten it transferred to my dealer...
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 9:00:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Yeah I was going to get in line with them at Capitol armory in the morning but they said it would be in the next 30 days. Hopefully this will lessen that wait by a week or two.   One part less to source I guess.
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