What seperates companies like LWRC, LMT,Colt, from the "so called" lower tiers like Bushmaster, CMMG, etc. With most parts being mil-spec such as lower and upper recievers, is it the quality of the barrels or BCG?? Just a thought.

Just get a BCM

from what i've read, bushmaster barrels are pretty good. don't know about their BCG. i haven't really read too much about CMMG, thought i've seen their parts in cheaper than dirt for WAY to much money.

i wouldn't consider those companies to be "lower tier" though. r-guns and blackthorne come to mind as lower tier.
if you are going to be running the rifle hard or depend on it with you life i think a top tier rifle is a must.
those middle tier rifles are great guns, don't get me wrong. i'd shoot the hell out of a bushmaster. (and i would enjoy every single round!)
i'm sure a bushmaster with a BCM, LMT, or denny's BCG would be fine. the stock bolt as backup.

just my $.02

LWRC a "Top Tier" company?

That's a laugh!  I'd take a bushmaster any day over anything those lying bastards produce.

I saw one of their D00sh Bags on the Mil channel again this weekend.....  "Our barrels last 20k, but regular M4 barrels last only 6-10k".

HA!

sounds like the mil channel is nothing but a big commercial! (doesn't have cable)

anyone know what the round count on a hammer forged barrel is?

Dont worry about the Tier BS. Get a quality bushmaster, colt, stag, or whatever and pick up a spare BCG. There's no huge eye opening difference in the rifles. Some cost a little more because of the upgrades that come with them. Some cost alot more because people are suckers and will believe anything they hear.

I hate the tier system..get a good quality rifle and upgrade to better parts when you can or when necesary.Maintain it and keep in good repair and buy good mags and you should be fine.That said I love BCM and Colt parts,CMMG,Sabre,Bushmaster and DD barrels

A J&T kit with a BCM, DD, LMT or Colt BCG/CH and  a CMT and up ($) LPK in an Aero Precision lower will take you a long ways in terms of bang for the buck.

Not all barrels are created equal.Also if you buy a lower teir rifle thinking you will upgrade it Don't the upgrades will cost more than buying right the first time.

this

Forget the specs... look at what company will stand by their product, and get you back to shooting quickly if something does happen.













Spikes...

Depends if you can get a used Bushmaster say for $750  thats still not only cheaper because some people dont have $1100 budgets your not at a disadvantage because the point is to get your hands on one to begin with then go from there.The onlything I would do with a stock Bushmaster right off was change the Bolt carrier+bolt and trigger guard and now you have a pare bolt for the rifle.In any event its what you can afford.

Worthless reply.

There's only hand full of manufacturers and machine shops that make the parts and everyone else just pays to have their name stamped on it.

There ARE differences in materials used and testing done by some companies.

Some are truely better made than others.

There really is a difference between an olympic, an RRA, and a colt....howeverto really see them you need a Full auto lower.

The major players are ammo, chamber specs, and barrel material.

To tell the difference take a olympic fire 60 rounds rapid then put another round in and let it cool off bolt closed a round in the chmaber then pick it up fire it, and it will jam, mostly failure to eject the case that cooled off inside the hot chamber.

The colt may also jam but should do so at a less often rate.

The real palyer here however is the ammo a steel case will do this more often than a brass case, and a steel case with a coat of laquor will be the most likley to not pass this test.

The power of the ejector spring also plays a part as in a broken case or just a faliure to extract.

Now ask yourself if this is worth the extra cash to you, it can be avoided by leaving the chamber empty after rapid fire, or leaving the bolt open

Just because one manufacturer makes the parts for 10 different companies, doesn't make all the parts the same.  Parts are made to customer's specs, and often the customer skimps on the fine details to save money.

I first started thinking about it when I saw a post on here that said, "He didn't know enought about AR's, so he bought a Bushmaster".  My Colt shoots like my S&W, that shoots like my Spikes, I don't see much of a difference. With manufacturing processes today, I think it's hard to get a bad rifle.  I think AR15.com get's caught up in the newest toy on the market, and your nuts if you don't own what I have.  Just my thoughts.

This thread has convinced me to trade my Noveske N4 for a Doublestar factory rifle.

It only really matters if you shoot them a lot.



If you think that "high volume shooting" is 3 20rd boxes in a month, then no, it doesn't really matter what you have.



Not that S&W, Spikes or Colt are "bad". All quite good IMO.



 

PM me. I have a RRA I will trade ya.

Damn it, I clicked the wrong quote button.

FAIL.



 

You have a point, as usual, but I really think you are low-balling the point where someone might be able to tell the difference.  I was thinking more along the lines of 500 rounds per month.

Since when is there anything wrong with a bushmaster?  Low Tier? hah.   Have we really moved to this top level of arfcom snobbery? Are we still worshiping a chart that is outdated and partially incorrect?

Give me a break!

It's constantly updated, not sure if you're referring to an older version...



 

As you can clearly see there are lots of opinions on what is and who is top tier.

My take is rather simple. Top tier means that on average, rifles made by that company can be depended on if you want to run them hard, like in a carbine class, competition etc. "Lower Tier" rifles may need some extra TLC or better core components to do the same thing.

Now lots of people will point to static lists or charts to tell you what's what, but I say that's beside the point. True "top tier" companies do whatever is nesessary to ensure thier rifles run, and the proof will be in the pudding, not in a chart. Look at the feedback from users, reports of problems and whether or not that company stands behind thier product. The features should follow that mentality, not preceed it.

Here's a little snippit of history for you:

Back in the mid to late 1990's, there were lots of companies filling the huge demand for these "evil black rifles." Some companies got the internet destinction of being as close to "mil-spec" as you could get, after all, they had chrome-lined 5.56Nato barrels and small diameter FCG pins. Folks would buy thier rifles, run a hundred or so rounds thru them a few times a month, and all was happy with the world.

Then around the year 2000 came carbine classes. Many of those supposed "mil-spec" companies didn't look so hot. Bolts breaking (who needs magna-flux?), cam pins breaking (they're all made the same right?), out of spec rails and uppers (aren't they all made by just a few military suppliers?), front sight's that couldn't be dailed-in high enough, (cause trig is a bitch), and numerous little things that "aren't supposed to be like that" popped up. Appearently running 500-1000 rounds a day wasn't the same as running 150 rounds every other weekend. I guess it's kinda like running your weekend 4X4 pickup truck in the Baja 1000. It just isn't the same thing.

And so considering how well it worked the first time around, people started looking again at features and lists, instead of quality control, performance and customer service.  What could possibly go wrong this time around?  

Now cutting to the chase a little bit, the question is whether or not your willing to shell out the dough for that level of reliability out of the box. I would contend that for the vast, vast majority of us, it probably doesn't matter. I'm not planning on running in a carbine class anytime soon with ammo this expensive.

So is there a difference? Yes.

Whether you need it or not is up to you though. It's your money.

Tex78        

Only those who spent the same or more money for less "x" marks on the chart cling to the idea that it is outdated.





 

So would say that most of the difference is in the BCG and possibly trigger and barrel assemblies?

Since they cannot figure out how to ensure that they have proper heat treat of their bolts. This is the biggest issue that many have with Bushy. The canted FSB were a minor issue compared to the bolt problems. You, the user, can detect and remedy the FSB. A bolt? Well, you get to do the final QC for BFI.

i guess it depends on hobby or necessity. for a hobby, just about any rifle will do, CMMG bargain bin would be great.  just lube it up really well and keep it clean after you're done with it.

for necessity, like a patrol rifle, i'd probably go w/ one of the "Top Tier", like BCM, LMT, POF, etc.

i have an S&W, i don't shoot very often, and its great to shoot. it's not "Top Tier", but i don't need the best barrel out there, and i'm happy w/ my lower and upper receiver b/c i keep them clean and lubed. now i may pick up an extra bolt and carrier, but that's it.

Your right about that! You always get what you pay for.
But so far the only differences pointed out is in the BCG and quality of barrels.

A local store has a Daniel Defense M4, and I hesitate going back in there because I'm going to buy it if I do!! Very nice gun.

yeah I did not like what I saw..................and I am sure many refuse to believe it. the truth hurts sometimes

I thought my bushy would have been better.

I have  a BCM middy, now that I have learned more..........

And you now have one of the best ARs you can buy.




 

I would rather buy a top tier used gun like this Sabre Defence for $935 shipped and insured than ANY non-Colt, LMT, Noveske.

That's true.  It depends on what you are using it for.  If I was in Mil or LE, I would get LMT or Colt or BCM.  As a civilian, most of my shooting is done at a range.  Companies like RRA, Bushmaster, and Stag are built well enough to hold up to my use.

That deals with reliability.  Accuracy is another thing to think about.  The better a gun is built, the more accurate it will be.  RRA doesn't use as high quality materials as BCM, but they have tight specs and make very accurate rifles.

Yes, this is it in a nutshell.

Bushmaster, RRA, CMMG, stag ect are all great rifles for very good prices and are probably considered mid-tier. I would call Hesse, Oly ect low tier.

Unless you are running your mid tier gun extremely hard you will probably never have an issue. I have owned S&W, 2 rra's and a bcm. All have literally been 100% with no noticeable differences.

Good one...you were joking .... right?

I heard a guy behind the counter in a gun shop a few months ago say that as he was try to push a DPMS Sportical on a customer. I laughed then too...outloud.

Is THIS the chart that's causing all the drama? I found it to be a valuable tool when deciding on an AR-15.

Yes, and that is the updated one too.

It upsets those here that own AR's without many X's.

You're not that naive are you? You don't really believe that everyone makes their own parts now do you..................you are joking right?

Yup.



 

You don't know much about manufacturing do you?



 

Well, whether the gas key is properly staked depends on the rifle and who staked it, not a chart.  M2 or M4 feed ramps, they are the same thing.  Bushmaster DOES make a 1/7 twist barrel so that is wrong too.  Just little things but a chart is just a chart, not a rifle.  Yes, I agree it's a good starting point but it's not the holy grail of reliability.

Odd thing here. I read that back in 2003 where the DEA put out specs for rifles and got samples from all the "Big Boys".  They ran them through all the torture tests to pick one for the contract. They did pretty serious testing on the samples they got. In the end only one rifle won.

After reading all this stuff about what rifle is top tier (highest priced, most hyped) I think I should contract my congressman and see if he will resend that contract that Rock River won. Someone must have cheated to let some second rate rifle like an RRA beat out all the "Big Boys".  

From Wikipedia:

"Rock River Arms makes parts and accessories for AR-15/M16 type rifles, as well as complete firearms. Rock River Arms was awarded a contract with the Drug Enforcement Administration to manufacture a new-issue AR-15 carbine after they beat several high profile manufacturers in strenuous qualification testing.[3] The DEA subsequently purchased a substantial number of Rock River Arms LAR-15 carbines in 2003."

And this:

RRA beats the others

Oh but you are leaving out the fact that Colt and Sig won a larger part of that contract than RRA. So no, they did not beat out the "big boys."

 

EAG has run a BCM carbine past the 28000 round mark and it's still going...this is worth paying attention to.  Those guys run the guns hard.  If you think or claim there is not difference in ARs, that they are all parts guns, you deserve what you get.  Of course, if you are serious user and really bet your life on your equipment, you probably already know this.  Or you can believe what others claim...few really shoot enough rounds at a fast enough tempo to know if their treasured safe-queen is really GTG.

These thread are so fun.  People get WAY to bent outa shape over the silliest things.  I own a Bushy M4 and so far to date it functions perfectly.  I do realize that the BCG is NOT properly staked, but I have a spare bolt ready to go.  That being said, if I knew about BCM when I bought the Bushy, I would have gone with BCM every time.  I think BCM is far and away the best bang for your buck.

+ on this. I currently own a Bushmaster and a Spikes that both have ST-22 dedicated uppers(1 Lothar, 1 GM), a CMMG/Spikes 9mm and a YHM/CMMG WASP in 5.56. None of these are considered top tier. I am pretty sure I'll never run them through a carbine course and for the shooting I do, they are plenty enough gun for me. I will however be acquiring a BCM as my next AR, unless I decide to go with a AR45.  As far as I am concerned, I think BCM is likely the standard at which AR's should be judged. To me they get the nod for their lifetime warranty as well as more X's than most others.

You would think after reading these threads over and over, the forums would be flooded with pictures and people bitching because there non-MPI'd bolt shattered or the non-proofed barrel was shot out with the first 200rd walmart value pack that they had to manuelly feed through there shitty carbines.  You just don't see it. It's bullshit. I own two AR's one is "God Tier " (since we can make shit up) and the other is "Tier 2" and guess what? They both work. Ones a little more accurate then the other and has some different features but other then that they both are the same as far as function.