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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:11:57 AM EDT
[#1]
Try different ammo..... put some Hornady or some Federal thru it.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:15:23 AM EDT
[#2]
If you are using the sling, attach it to your rail.
Shooting well requires consistent pressure. Try shooting at a closer distance. Then, work to longer distances. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:22:02 AM EDT
[#3]
it's the indian, not the arrow..how many rounds do you shoot a week? What have you shot in the past??
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:23:52 AM EDT
[#4]
You are within the expected accuracy of that weapon and ammo. Sorry to break it down like this but there's no black magic here. You're running 1 high quality component, the LaRue SPR mount, everything else is mediocre at best. It's a Bushmaster carbine and cheap ammo, 2-3 MOA is what I would expect. It's not like you're running a LaRue Stealth with custom hand loads and some 24x Nightforce scope. If that were the case then yeah I would say something is wrong.
You have to pay to play my friend. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:24:43 AM EDT
[#5]
Ammo.... you know I just realized what was posted... SUB MOA at 100 yards with a bushmaster? Hmmmm....
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:26:09 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
If you are using the sling, attach it to your rail. Shooting well requires consistent pressure. Try shooting at a closer distance. Then, work to longer distances. His "rail" is not free floated so it will not make any difference. Do not use your sling or the bipod. Both are putting pressure to the barrel. Instead use sand bags and rest the gun as close to the front of the upper receiver as possible. Better ammo equals better groups. Try the Federal 200 round box of 50 grain JHPs at WalMart. Bill |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:29:19 AM EDT
[#7]
It actually doesn't sound like to bad of a group at 100 yards.... maybe I'm a sorry shot also but I think you probably need to shoot more and run higher quality ammo and you'll see improvement.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:35:38 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Ammo.... you know I just realized what was posted... SUB MOA at 100 yards with a bushmaster? Hmmmm.... My 24" Bushmaster V-Match will put Black Hills Blue Box into an inch or under all day long. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:36:41 AM EDT
[#9]
Bushmaster has pretty decent barrels, with GOOD ammo it might be able to do 1 MOA.
Anything less your going to have to spend a shit load more money and in the end it won't be worth it. LOL to the bushmaster haters, you're all  's.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:44:18 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ammo.... you know I just realized what was posted... SUB MOA at 100 yards with a bushmaster? Hmmmm.... My 24" Bushmaster V-Match will put Black Hills Blue Box into an inch or under all day long. I'm sure it will, however the OP does not have a 24" V-match. He has a non free floated 16" Gov't profile M4. 4moa or less is what I would expect. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 10:47:00 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Bushmaster has pretty decent barrels, with GOOD ammo it might be able to do 1 MOA. Anything less your going to have to spend a shit load more money and in the end it won't be worth it. LOL to the bushmaster haters, you're all 's.Big emphasis on the might. Hell my LMT 14.5 with a ADCO target crown, LaRue handguard (free float), 10x scope, and 77gr SMKs will just barely do 1MOA from sandbags with 5 rounds. M4s are not sniper platforms, they are carbines. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 11:28:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Bushmaster has pretty decent barrels, with GOOD ammo it might be able to do 1 MOA. Anything less your going to have to spend a shit load more money and in the end it won't be worth it. LOL to the bushmaster haters, you're all 's.Big emphasis on the might. Hell my LMT 14.5 with a ADCO target crown, LaRue handguard (free float), 10x scope, and 77gr SMKs will just barely do 1MOA from sandbags with 5 rounds. M4s are not sniper platforms, they are carbines. when I first built my 16" upper using a Fluted Young Mfg Match Grade M4 contour bbl I was shooting sub MOA with 69gr gold medal match. after a couple thousand rounds its shooting 1MOA on a good day 
I got off the sub moa wagon real quick...and started shooting the piss out of it. Almost ready to get myself a SS bbl replacement |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 11:48:26 AM EDT
[#13]
One MOA is the benchmark for a target rifle. A very very good rifle will shoot just under 1MOA. The ammo you are using is not capable of that kind of accuracy––-most 55 grain FMJs bullets are not.
If you really want 1MOA or less accuracy, you will need a target barrel and taylored handloads. Nothing else is guaranteed. Two to three MOA is not all that bad for the platform on which you are shooting. Most of the sub-MOA targets posted here, you will notice, are 3 or 5 shots. That is not enough to determine what the real accuracy is. You need 10 to 20 shot groups. Those rifles whose seemingly get sub MOA 3 or 5 shot groups will likely go into 2 MOA when shot with larger groups. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 11:49:47 AM EDT
[#14]
Coyote around here are WAY bigger than MOA
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Posted: 11/19/2008 12:04:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
If you are using the sling, attach it to your rail. Shooting well requires consistent pressure. Try shooting at a closer distance. Then, work to longer distances. His "rail" is not free floated so it will not make any difference. Do not use your sling or the bipod. Both are putting pressure to the barrel. Instead use sand bags and rest the gun as close to the front of the upper receiver as possible. Better ammo equals better groups. Try the Federal 200 round box of 50 grain JHPs at WalMart. Bill If the rail isn't floated, go with sandbags. Better ammo could help a lot. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 12:06:17 PM EDT
[#16]
Like the others have suggested: Get much better ammo and a free float handguard. If that doesn't fix it, have another shooter that is a proven good shot to try it. Then figure on a barrel if that doesn't fix the problem.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 12:08:31 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Coyote around here are WAY bigger than MOA lol, good point |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 12:34:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Coyote around here are WAY bigger than MOA lol, good point A and B zones on an IPSC target, or center mass of a bad guy are also way bigger than MOA. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 12:35:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Different ammo.
Different shooter. Different expectations. You've got way more scope on that rig than you really need. As others have said, its a 16" light weight barrel carbine. My M4 clone has shot a 3/4 inch group exactly once in its life and not by me. Anything under 2 MOA and I'm a happy camper. 3 MOA doesn't make me happy but I accept it. Mine likes 69 grain Sierra Match Kings. It will shoot 55 grainers but its not an accuracy load by any means. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 12:55:02 PM EDT
[#20]
I dont think that gun is garunteed to shoot sub moa. around 1moa is damn good for a military autoloading rifle
 Throw a ff forend on there and have the crown redone by adco, that may help tighten your groups. Also try heavier and lighter ammo to find what your gun likes best.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 2:42:44 PM EDT
[#21]
Try better ammo from various manufacturers or get your favorite reloader to work up some loads for you with high quality, match-grade bullets. The .223 downrange performance is very unpredictable to changes in ammo type or loads. You will be a very lucky person if you get even 1 MOA performance from cheap or surplus ammo. The M16A2 spec says that the extreme spread of a 10 round group size firing M855 ammo can be as big as 4.8" at a range of 100 yards. That is very close to 4.8 MOA. Sounds like your rifle is performing to Mil specs......Mil-R-63997B (AR) to be exact.
You gotta buy the good stuff to get good results. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 2:54:40 PM EDT
[#22]
Try shooting from a sandbag. Sometimes the bi-pod "jumps" around making it difficult to be consistent with your follow through and its always good to shoot for accuracy with the rifle resting in something soft.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 2:55:56 PM EDT
[#23]
I can't imagine wanting an M4 Profile Bushy to shoot sub MOA. As everyone else has said, using the crappy ammo you are using, you should expect 2-4 MOA. I expect with qualtity ammo and if you know how to shoot you can get that down to about 1.5-2 MOA with quality match-grade ammo or handloads. I've shot several 1 to 1.25 MOA 5-shot groups with my H-Bar Bushy carbine and a 2-7 Leupold VX-II but they were all with Federal Premium ammo (Nosler Ballistic Tip, 55 gr) or Hornady V-max 55 gr handloads.
Try some better ammo. And remove all that crap from the gun and get one some sandbags. Vertical foregrips and conducive to speed, not accuracy. A bipod is for a field rest, not bench shoot. Take both off and shoot off sandbags with QUALITY ammo. -David Edgewood, NM |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 3:06:06 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ammo.... you know I just realized what was posted... SUB MOA at 100 yards with a bushmaster? Hmmmm.... My 24" Bushmaster V-Match will put Black Hills Blue Box into an inch or under all day long. I'm sure it will, however the OP does not have a 24" V-match. He has a non free floated 16" Gov't profile M4. 4moa or less is what I would expect. You clearly missed his point. The first claim was a general statement about Bushmasters. The retort was simply a counter-example. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 3:10:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Appleseed
They have events in OK. Get some instruction to help reduce the largest variable.....the shooter. And save a bunch of ammo and learn some new lifelong skills. Granted its not a perfect place to learn, but the price is right, and the experience excellent. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 3:14:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ammo.... you know I just realized what was posted... SUB MOA at 100 yards with a bushmaster? Hmmmm.... My 24" Bushmaster V-Match will put Black Hills Blue Box into an inch or under all day long. I'm sure it will, however the OP does not have a 24" V-match. He has a non free floated 16" Gov't profile M4. 4moa or less is what I would expect. You clearly missed his point. The first claim was a general statement about Bushmasters. The retort was simply a counter-example. No I did not. This thread is not a Bushmaster bashing thread, it is why a 16" M4 barrel shouldn't be expected to shoot sub MOA with 55gr ammo. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 4:04:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Thanks for all the info. I just got back from the "range" (a target on a piece of plywood and a pumpkin) and I was still shooting "about the size of my palm" MOA. I lay prone, I use sandbags, I use my bi-pod, I shoot the barrel hot, I shoot the barrel cool, I shoot it clean, I shoot it dirty, ect ect but I am still using the "bad" ammo. True true a coyote is a bigger target but there is just something about the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you walk up on a dead coyote and have hit it exactly where you were aiming. No I do not have any military experience or special training in shooting but I have hunted my whole life and shoot everything from a .22LR to a Barrett .50 cal. I have a Browning .223 WSSM with a long range Leupold scope and I can drive nails with that baby from 200 yards (ok maybe a bit exaggerated but still). No I am not a sniper and I'm not trying to be. I was just wondering if anyone had anything to say, and you did. I really really really REALLY like shooting with the bi-pod and I try to shoot how I am going to when out hunting. None of my shots are going to be over 200 yards so ya, MAYBE sub MOA was a stretch but it got everyones attention and helped me realize ammo makes alot of difference to alot of people. I really don't think I will take the bi-pod off and the VFG helps me when I am shooting freehand, So ya I have some extra junk on my gun and ya I need to get a free float forend and ya I need to lower my expectations probably, but I was just looking for some tips on how to become a better marksman.
So I have learned, practice, practice, practice and then... practice some more. Also buy better ammo. THANKS!! |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 4:47:23 PM EDT
[#28]
Anymore suggestions?
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:08:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Anymore suggestions? Yes, learn from others. No matter how much you practice, you'll be practically limited to the techniques you already know. Sometimes we all have to be broken of old habits, and we usually can't see the mistakes we make without outside intervention, as humbling as that is. Is your NPOA consistent from shot to shot and day to day? If not, stay home and perfect that before heading to the range and spraying ammo. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:14:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Don't get all twisted up about the free float hanguard . Yes it can help in some situations where you are putting lots of preasure on the gun (tight sling ect.) but it isn't going to turn a 4moa shooter into a sub moa shooter.
You might consider a aftermarket trigger . Stock Bushmaster (and many other brands ) triggers can be a handfull . Ammo . I would sugest a trip to your nearest Wallmart and try Winchester 45gr Varmint. Has worked pretty good for me in many rifles . Borrow a higher power scope. This will allow you to see each shot as it strikes which allows you to fine tune your technique. 1 moa–– maybe not Factory bushmaster with tuned up trigger , good scope , select ammo and a solid rest with decent technique and 1.5 to 2 moa is possible in many cases. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:22:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Don't get all twisted up about the free float hanguard . Yes it can help in some situations where you are putting lots of preasure on the gun (tight sling ect.) but it isn't going to turn a 4moa shooter into a sub moa shooter. You might consider a aftermarket trigger . Stock Bushmaster (and many other brands ) triggers can be a handfull . Ammo . I would sugest a trip to your nearest Wallmart and try Winchester 45gr Varmint. Has worked pretty good for me in many rifles . Borrow a higher power scope. This will allow you to see each shot as it strikes which allows you to fine tune your technique. 1 moa–– maybe not Factory bushmaster with tuned up trigger , good scope , select ammo and a solid rest with decent technique and 1.5 to 2 moa is possible in many cases. Ya the trigger on my bushmaster is a bitch. I have tried to squeeze the trigger until just before it lets go and hold to try and have total control when the gun fires but the trigger pull is so heavy its dmn near impossible. And my habits aren't horrible. My bro, dad, friends know that I can shoot and I have proven to myself I can shoot by the amount of animals I have killed and the shots I have made. I am just having problems with this AR. maybe I am just expecting too much. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:41:32 PM EDT
[#32]
About the size of your small hand is very vague, measure your group next time. Get some ammo other than S&B what is the twist rate of you rifle? I would try some heavier rounds. Your scope is fine, I can afford better and use Nikon because I prefer them! With your set up and ammo I would expect around 2.5 inches would accept 3 be very happy with 2 inch groups. However I would be surprised if you can not get it to shoot under 2 inches at 100 yards. A free float rail and better ammo may just do the trick. If your trigger is problem maybe a trigger job or replacement is on order. Also ditch the bipod and fully support the rifle until you find out what the problem is. This means a bag under the front and rear of the rifle. 1.5 inches at 100 yards would be very good for your shooter.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:52:24 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
About the size of your small hand is very vague, measure your group next time. Get some ammo other than S&B what is the twist rate of you rifle? I would try some heavier rounds. Your scope is fine, I can afford better and use Nikon because I prefer them! With your set up and ammo I would expect around 2.5 inches would accept 3 be very happy with 2 inch groups. However I would be surprised if you can not get it to shoot under 2 inches at 100 yards. A free float rail and better ammo may just do the trick. If your trigger is problem maybe a trigger job or replacement is on order. Also ditch the bipod and fully support the rifle until you find out what the problem is. This means a bag under the front and rear of the rifle. 1.5 inches at 100 yards would be very good for your shooter. I will try this and update on monday.... if any of you care. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 5:55:54 PM EDT
[#34]
Wormydog, I don't think your expectations are too high.
Your experiences sound similar to mine; I've been through the same thing with several ARs and G3-type rifles. It's the ammo. Try it, it's the cheapest way to find out if the barrel or the whole upper is worth keeping for you. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:18:24 PM EDT
[#35]
I think I am going to try deer hunting with it this weekend with some ballistic tip ammo. Or maybe ssome hollow points.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:27:07 PM EDT
[#36]
my first ar was a bushmaster m4a3. it grouped like shit. everyone said it was ammo or me. well, i know how to shoot alittle and i started to put very good ammo through it with a nice scope and larue mount and it still sucked. i then learned that the m4 is a battle rifle made for shooting people sized targets at less than 300m not putting tight holes in paper. the groups your shooting i think are normal for this rifle and you aint gonna change anything with out putting at least a new bbl on it.
i did get that sub moa rifle, and it is very sweet. but trust me brother you will have to drop some cash. it'll never really be yours unless you design and build it anyway right? |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:30:12 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
my first ar was a bushmaster m4a3. it grouped like shit. everyone said it was ammo or me. well, i know how to shoot alittle and i started to put very good ammo through it with a nice scope and larue mount and it still sucked. i then learned that the m4 is a battle rifle made for shooting people sized targets at less than 300m not putting tight holes in paper. the groups your shooting i think are normal for this rifle and you aint gonna change anything with out putting at least a new bbl on it. i did get that sub moa rifle, and it is very sweet. but trust me brother you will have to drop some cash. it'll never really be yours unless you design and build it anyway right? I honestly do have a sub moa rifle, my browning .223 wssm, but i was just wondering if it was possible with my bushy, |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:32:59 PM EDT
[#38]
possible. but you might want to reconsider what your doing with it. i still have the m4a3. i use it to blow shit up up close.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:36:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
possible. but you might want to reconsider what your doing with it. i still have the m4a3. i use it to blow shit up up close. ya but i just love coyote hunting with it and when i start prarie dogging,,, in a couple weeks, i want to use my AR and i want to be accurate |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:47:24 PM EDT
[#40]
sellior and bellot is just shiny wolf ammo! try ballistic tips since your shootin coyotes.
My RRA has a 1 in 8 twist and it shoots 50 grain ballistic tips best. dime size groups ten shot groups. go figure. Ive heard of people getting good results from their bushy with BTs also. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 6:58:36 PM EDT
[#41]
I get some pretty decent sub MOA groups with a Kel-Tec SU-16E which is a polymer receiver "sport Utility" rifle very similar to the AR, uses the same mags, ammo and a similar bolt, only its a gas piston system. Now I'm not a great shoot , but just stating that an average quality rifle with some careful techniques and quality ammo can shoot pretty decent groups.
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/BamBam64/11-2grp1.jpg I know this is only a 3 shoot group and please forgive me for not shooting a 10-20 shoot group, but this is how I gauge my rifle and my shooting, always have and always will. I'm just stating I think it is a combination of shooter, rifle and ammo, not any one thing that makes a good shooter. I was using American Eagle 62gr ammo thru my SU-16 with has a medium weight 16 inch barrel which is not free floating. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/BamBam64/SU16A3.jpg My advice is buy some good quality ammo, practice your shooting technique and free float the barrel if you want the best accuracy.t my .02 cents. Good luckWormydog1724! Rinnie |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:28:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
I get some pretty decent sub MOA groups with a Kel-Tec SU-16E which is a polymer receiver "sport Utility" rifle very similar to the AR, uses the same mags, ammo and a similar bolt, only its a gas piston system. Now I'm not a great shoot , but just stating that an average quality rifle with some careful techniques and quality ammo can shoot pretty decent groups. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/BamBam64/11-2grp1.jpg I know this is only a 3 shoot group and please forgive me for not shooting a 10-20 shoot group, but this is how I gauge my rifle and my shooting, always have and always will. I'm just stating I think it is a combination of shooter, rifle and ammo, not any one thing that makes a good shooter. I was using American Eagle 62gr ammo thru my SU-16 with has a medium weight 16 inch barrel which is not free floating. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/BamBam64/SU16A3.jpg My advice is buy some good quality ammo, practice your shooting technique and free float the barrel if you want the best accuracy.t my .02 cents. Good luckWormydog1724! Rinnie You should read the tacked thread regarding 3 shot groups... Shooting 3 shot groups is masterbation |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:29:22 PM EDT
[#43]
The trick to these is a heavy bullet and fast twist barrel. A 1in7 or 1in8. You can go the other way with a 52 gr. match lighter bullet and a 1in9 and hope for some windless shots. I am talking about consistant .75 and under groups. Anyone who knows how to shoot can do a 100yd. .75 and better with a Colt 6920 fast twist and match 77gr Fed. bullet or a .5 with a RR Varmint and match ammo. As someone said try a lighter bullet of quality and if that dont get you 1.5 at 100 then you know what to do.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:34:51 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ammo.... you know I just realized what was posted... SUB MOA at 100 yards with a bushmaster? Hmmmm.... My 24" Bushmaster V-Match will put Black Hills Blue Box into an inch or under all day long. I'm sure it will, however the OP does not have a 24" V-match. He has a non free floated 16" Gov't profile M4. 4moa or less is what I would expect. You clearly missed his point. The first claim was a general statement about Bushmasters. The retort was simply a counter-example. I think you clearly misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not knocking BM, I was going to buy one before I found my 6920. My point was BM is not a sniper rifle. Am I going to shoot sub MOA with my 6920 at 100 yards? Shit no....... Wasn't a knock on BM bro, sorry for the confusion, I could have elaborated. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:35:21 PM EDT
[#45]
2-3 moa is pretty normal for S&B through a 1/9 16" barrel.
Ditto on the 3 shot groups |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:36:53 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:39:30 PM EDT
[#47]
You should be shooting sub MOA at 100 with a 6920, with good glass, and Match ammo.
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:44:06 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
I get some pretty decent sub MOA groups with a Kel-Tec SU-16E which is a polymer receiver "sport Utility" rifle very similar to the AR, uses the same mags, ammo and a similar bolt, only its a gas piston system. Now I'm not a great shoot , but just stating that an average quality rifle with some careful techniques and quality ammo can shoot pretty decent groups. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/BamBam64/11-2grp1.jpg I know this is only a 3 shoot group and please forgive me for not shooting a 10-20 shoot group, but this is how I gauge my rifle and my shooting, always have and always will. I'm just stating I think it is a combination of shooter, rifle and ammo, not any one thing that makes a good shooter. I was using American Eagle 62gr ammo thru my SU-16 with has a medium weight 16 inch barrel which is not free floating. http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e54/BamBam64/SU16A3.jpg My advice is buy some good quality ammo, practice your shooting technique and free float the barrel if you want the best accuracy.t my .02 cents. Good luckWormydog1724! Rinnie That looks like a crossbreed between an AR and an AK... cool tho. |
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:48:15 PM EDT
[#49]
I have a Bushmaster Patrolman's Carbine. The barrel is a 1 turn in 9. My ammo is S&B 55 grain FMJ. The issue... groups of "palm sized' MOA. Solutions?
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Posted: 11/19/2008 7:58:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Do your groups pattern consistently but just too big?
My Bushmaster barrels have always done very well, triggers, that's another story. Not likely the barrel. And despite what another post said regarding your glass, that Nikon is plenty good in quality and specs to do sub moa at 100 yards. Not likely the scope (especially now that you have it in the LaRue.) If I were you, and wanted to make that a sub moa gun I would start with - 1) Float the barrel 2) Find the ammo "it likes" 3) Shoot from bags - not the bi-pod |
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