" />

.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BB:
the OP should contain what makes a correct AR15A4 M16A4 clone like the cool kid clone threads.

One could probably write a fair sized book on all the changes that have been made to the M16A4 as a weapon system over time, so you can understand that it's somewhat difficult to do a write up to the effect of: "This is what constitutes an M16A4 clone..."

I sure someone will be along shortly to either refute or amend some of this, as I'm far from what I would consider to be a subject matter expert on it all, though I'll give it a try...

In regards to the M16A4, I generally view the weapon as having 3 distinct eras: "Early A4s", "The War Years" (to include US Army & Marine Corps variants), & "Modern Era A4s".

Early 'A4s...(July '97 - Sep '99)

Officially, the M16A4 was adopted on July 29th, 1997, to replace the M16A2 as the standard-issue rifle for both the U.S Army & the US Marine Corps. While there were prototypes rifles (XM16A2E4s) in use on dates before July of '97, their features (grey anodizing or such) are not generally considered when discussing "Early A4" clones.

Early M16A4s are noted by their use of:

M16A2 barrel assemblies (having rifle feed ramped barrel extensions & fixed carry-handle height front sight bases)
Non-"M" or "M4" marked flat-top upper receivers (these early A4 upper receivers did NOT have M4 Feed ramps)
They used peel-washers to time their flash suppressors during most of this period.
Most were delivered to their respective services equipped with standard ("shiny-surfaced") A2 hand guards.
They were delivered with standard detachable carry handle rear sights.
They all used metal trap doors in their A2 stock end plates.
Their safety selectors, while having a "tick" to indicate the mode of operation, were only single-sided (no ambidextrous safeties were in use) & the "lever" itself extended from the edge of the safety rather than from the middle as currently issued ones do.
Their A2 pistol grips also tended to be of a "shinier" black material & the bottom forward "bump" was not as pronounced as currently issued ones (it incorporated a smoother transition to the tip).
While the Parkerizing of the various steel components (Components like the barrel, hand guard retainer cap, flash suppressor, forward assist, rear sights on the detachable carry handle, ect.) were more "grey" in color than they were "black", the upper & lower receivers after the adoption date were anodized to a Type II (black) hard-coat specification. (Someone more knowledgeable than me may know if there were ever actually any "M16A4"s with "grey" receivers, though I know of none that were officially labeled as such.)
Early A4s were known to have used either the US M7, or US M9 bayonet (with early straight tube-style grip).
Sling-use varied between: standard M1-style sling or black A2 "silent" sling, though by sometime @ early '98?, various 3-point slings started showing up in use.
As for side-sling swivels, I'm not certain if it was only a Colt thing or what, but seems like some rifles had them, and others didn't. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in on this.

(Starting @ Oct '98? - early '99?)
A4s started showing up either equipped with, or were modified by the addition of, a KAC M5 Rail Adapter System (RAS).
These early drop-in rails tended to be more "purple" than "black" in color.

(For a short time between Oct '99 to @ early 2003(ish?))
ARMS #59M SIR systems would be seen to be installed on select units' M16A4s.

What I like to call...
"The War Years"...doesn't have so much to do with any particular "war" per se, but is basically from @ 2000 - 2010(ish)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of:

True A4 barrel assemblies having "M4" feed ramped barrel extensions & "F"-marked (detachable carry handle height) front sight bases.
Flat top "M" or "M4" marked upper receivers incorporating "M4" feed ramps.
They used "crush" washers to time their flash suppressors.
Their A2 pistol grips, while still incorporating the earlier tapering of the bottom "bump", were made of a notably less-shiny material.
The steel components (barrel, HG end caps, triggers, ect.) began having more of a true "black" coloring due to changes made in the surface-treatment procedures.
These rifles began being delivered with KAC (or later, P&S Products) M5 rail adapter systems pre-installed from the factory.
They still incorporated metal (aluminum) trap door assembles in their A2 stocks, though the stock-body materials began being produced in a slightly more "grey" color, than the deeper "black" color of earlier models.
Sometime during the later part of this era (@ 2009ish?) ambidextrous safeties started showing up occasionally in use.
Detachable carry handles began to be phased out of deliveries (or packaged separately with the weapon) as A4s began to be shipped out with either no rear iron sights or had Matech back up rear iron sights equipped... Also, KAC 600m? sights were occasionally (though rarely) seen to be used rather than the Matechs during this time period. (May have been KAC 800m sights - my memory is somewhat hazy in this regard)
These rifles were often seen using Surefire M95 & M96-series weapon lights (M951/M952 or M961/M962 models both with & without the use of tape switches) The earliest ones had "wide" bodies (thicker) & "ribbed" head assemblies. Later ones used thinner bodies & had smooth head assemblies. These changes were made in an effort to lighten the accessory weight-wise, at the expense of heat dissipation.
Depending on the AO - Buttstock magazine pouches were often used during this time period. Most were seen to be black in color, though occasionally other color variants like olive drab or camo-patterned colors were used.
Sling use varied dramatically during this period, though most were seen to be of the 3-point type design, usually black in color, though like the stock pouches, were occasionally seen in other color variants. Near the latter part of this period (late 2006ish?), Blue Force Gear 2-point slings began to be seen occasionally in use on A4s.
Also, during this period, many of the standard 30rd magazines with field units were upgraded by the use of Magpul "anti-tilt" followers. Later (circa 2009), the military began procuring their own version of this follower for use in all their future magazine purchases.

US Army variants tended to use Aimpoint M68 red dot sights (Comp M2 earlier, or Comp M3.. maybe Comp M4 for very late models? - I'm not sure exactly when the Comp M4 & M4s models actually started making the rounds)
Us Army variants were also noted to still be using either US M7 or M9 bayonets.

Marine Corps variants usually were noted to be using a Trijicon scope (TA01NSN & TA31-F? models earlier, & TA31RCOA4 models later)
The original TA51 mounts on these optics were at first shipped with knobs facing toward the left side of the weapon. Later this was changed to have the knobs of the TA51 mount face toward the right side. (or was it the other way around?...I can't recall now.)
The Marines started using the OKC3S bayonet with this rifle from @ 2003 onward.

Modern Era M16A4s (Circa 2011(ish) to Present)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of the following:

Their A2 pistol grips have a distinctive "shelf-like" tapering of the bottom "bump" of the grip, as well as a squared-off taper to the top side profile of the grip. Furthermore, these grips tend to be lighter black in color, nearing closer to a "grey-scale" than "black" and have a flat, non-reflective surface finish.
They use one of 3 different types of safeties - The first being like the older format (War Years) safety except that it is reversible for use with South-Paws, the second is an ambidextrous safety that has a shortened lever on the non-dominant (non-thumb) side, and the 3rd is non-ambidextrous safety though the "lever" extends from the center of the safety rather than from the edge of the safety as those of the previous eras.
The trap doors of the A2 stock assemblies, while still using metal retaining latches, are occasionally found to have plastic door bodies rather than the metal (aluminum) bodies of previous eras. (Though I'm not sure if this is an actual change to the A4 specification, or rather some type of screw-up in the supply chain.)
These rifles are delivered with either Matech or KAC rear sights equipped, rather than with detachable carry handles.
They are often seen equipped with either black or coyote colored Blue Force Gear NSN Vickers 2-point slings & mounts, though M1 slings are occasionally seen in use for "parade" or "training" purposes/exercises.
These rifles are almost exclusively used with either the Trijicon TA31RCOA4 scope (for the US Marines), or the Aimpoint M68 (COMP M4 & M4S) red dot sights (for the US Army).
The TA51 mounts used with the Trijicon scopes were, or rather ...are, commonly replaced with LaRue Tactical quick release lever mounts.
As of this posting, I believe there are no longer any A4s that are still equipped with standard A2 hand guards. They should all be equipped with KAC M5 drop-in rails. (That I know of)
Right around this time frame (2010ish), LED lighting began to really make itself known in the weapon light industry, and as such - M16A4s began to be seen with Surefire M952V LED/Infrared convertible weapon lights, or Surefire M600v? LED "Scout" weapon lights in use. (Not sure of the actual Scout model number, though I believe it was in the 600-type series)

Because of the often rapid, constantly changing nature of the use & development of night vision accessories & laser sighting equipment, I have purposefully not touched upon their use with the M16A4 in this posting, and shall leave that to the AR15 community's more knowledgeable fellows to expound upon.

On a side note:
Throughout the last two eras (War Years & Modern), there have been a number of "Field Modifications" (some "approved" & others ...not-so-much) to the M16A4 weapon system. One such modification, has been the replacement of the Standard A2 stock assembly with a collapsible one such as the Lewis Machine & Tool Company (or also B5 Systems) SOPMOD Stock, or the Veltor "A5" stock assembly. While these "Mods" may have been approved for temporary "fielded" use, while so modified, these weapons are generally no longer considered to be classed among other "M16A4s", but rather among the status of "Special Weapons" or unofficially as "M16A5s". Because these weapons (as modified) no longer fit either the physical description or technical specifications of that of an M16A4, clones which are based around these modifications are generally not considered to be among M16A4 "clones".

Maybe later I will go back through this adding a few relevant pictures, but I think this is about the best I can come up with at present, and hopefully it will be enough to help you to sort things out...

Mike (FlDiveCop71)

ETA: This write up, while general in nature, primarily refers to completed M16A4 weapons' configurations as they were delivered to the US military @ the timeframes mentioned, and should not be construed as absolutes as to actual configurations that may be found in the field, either presently or at the aforementioned time periods. While the military supply system may continue to provide newly manufactured components built to outdated specifications, these items are primarily intended & supplied as "replacement" components for older weapons, rather than as revisionary components for newly issued M16A4s. Though some mention is made as to various options & accessories used in association with the M16A4 throughout these periods, please note that these comments are by no means the end-all / be-all of what was either available for use, or actually issued to the troops, but rather that which has been either known personally, or shown through reliable sources to have been used @ these periods. ...FDC71.

Anyone know what happened to dts arms? His site is down.

Include buffer or no?

His website is hard to navigate

Attached File

I bought one of these. Good stuff.

Attached File
Mortarman with His M16A4 and White Zipties.

Marine using what he has on hand. Also interesting placement of TQ on collar(?).

Yeah, that’s probably unit SOP. In Iraq, our SOP was a tourniquet in the left ankle pocket of the ACU trousers. In Afghanistan (in a different unit), the SOP was a tourniquet in your left upper arm pocket. It varies quite a bit.

My Army Reserve clone.  

The upper and BCG are a factory FN that I got off Gunbroker, the lower is marked M16A4 from PSA, the stock is a factory FN from Shark Arms, the lower parts kit is generic, and the optic is an Aimpoint CompM4s.

Just picked up a couple of new Colt LPKs from Arms Unlimited and they came with the proper notched selector. No Schmid marking though.

Attached File


This thread is too good, I was out walking the property line and this pic kinda found itself. I love this rifle.

Found this in the EE, for anyone interested.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/equipment-exchange/Fn-m16a4-1000/21-2207718/

Pic thread:

Attached File


Attached File

Anyone know where to get a good condition F stamped upper? I saw thoroughbred armament has surplus uppers, but seeing if anyone knows another place for them.

After seeing the post about the black creek precision limited supply of M16A4 lowers, I'll probably reach out to them after the new year to see if they have any plans to push them out again. I'm not a fan of the aero lower, and it'd be nice to see something in addition to the PSA lowers. The PSA lowers do look good, but damn if it's hard to snatch one up when in stock.

DSA has stripped A4 uppers with no feed ramps for $35.

I took the A2 and A4 out today.  I haven't fired the A2 in 6 months and the A4 in over a year.
I'm really tempted to sell the A4, but I know as soon as I do I'd want one again.

I carried one in Iraq, and while I dislike that configuration, it does have some sentimental value.

@Postal0311

What do you dislike about the A4?

When the M16A4 was developed, it did what it was supposed to do.  But nowadays, it is completely obsolete.
Mind you, a Brown Bess musket can still serve as a fighting long arm, and the A4 can too.  But they are both obsolete.

No point in having a fixed stock on an AR, especially with a military weapon where you will be wearing armor, MOPP, etc.
Hell, even the new model AKs the Russians are using have adjustable stocks.

Now, I can have a match barreled carbine with a free floating barrel that is lighter and handier than the A4.
There are plenty of free float rails that are lighter than the old KAC M5 RAS.

So with the A4, I have a gun that is heavier than a precision AR, but not a precision gun.  And, for realistic combat distances, I can do that just fine with a SBR which is even smaller and handier.
A 10.X inch barreled can easily still make those 300m hits.  A 14.5-16 inch barrel can still dominate the 600m KD course of fire.

The military should have skipped the A4 and switched directly to the M4.  But the Marines wanted to be able to do close order drill, so we stayed with a rifle for longer than we needed to.

But just like the fuds who say, "muh wood-n-steel is more betta than your mouse gun", it is too easy to fall into the trap of letting the emotional connection we have developed for our inanimate rifle length ARs act as justification for their minimal benefits over the larger multitude reasons a carbine is better.

Not to debate, but a4s can be outfitted with adjustable stocks.  20" barrel makes a 55 grain pill a hell of a defensive round, even std m193, for a long distance.  Rifle gas system is the lightest recoiling and extremely reliable.  Non free float can still be plenty accurate for cheap... I mean there are a lot of counter arguments there.  A 10.5" may be hitting targets out to 300m, but it won't be doing much terminally and the muzzle blast indoors or under cover is pretty terrible.  I think most Americans do well with just a 20" gun if that's what they have.  I don't want one for my work because clearing rooms with a 20" sucks, but is doable.  I still have guys with A1s run those pretty damn well at training.

But this is a clone thread, so another thread for that topic would be better.

dupe!

Good write up. If we are honest with ourselves these are all truths about the A4.

My A4 will never be my go to because I have options, but they are relatively inexpensive to build/clone and are fun to shoot.

He's correct on numerous points, well written as well. I was issued an A2 and A4, I didnt really hate it because that's all we had. When I was issued anM4 that changed my perception of the musket. I agree there is better tools in the shed but for a troop that doesnt leave the wire they still have a place.

Even though I hated my A4, my meager collection wouldnt be complete without one. It's the pride of the fleet, for me anyway.

I have several AR rifles to choose from. But the A4 was my musket of choice for the rally in Richmond.

Agree and all valid points.

Agree and all valid points by wally05.

Would an Army M16A4 clone wear a red dot instead of an ACOG?

Absolutely, especially if you were a Reservist.  I've had an A4 with a CCO.

Because the fixed stock isn't a problem when using a red dot. Unlimited eye relief is great on fixed stock rifles. Every magnified optic needs an adjustable stock unless you are only going to shoot it off a bench.

You can gain eye relief on a LPVO by dialing the magnification down. Zero the rifle in prone at the highest magnification setting and use the variable power to get proper eye relief in different shooting positions. The ACOG need an adjustable stock.

Got a nice deal on a LNIB TA-31F for my Aero A4 build.  Red chevron reticle.

We had Aimpoints on our A4s (Army National Guard)

I had Aimpoints on A4s, with the Active Duty Air Force and then again with the Air National Guard (2002,2004,2006 and 2008). I am searching for a proper ACOG simply for the fact that I think they look like they belong together.

My first trip (2002) we had clapped out A2s, the guys that were doing the heavy lifting got some form of M4 with a carry handle and an optic on top. I wasnt a "gun guy" then but I wish I was.

Price check on the Knights M5 rail? I can't seem to find them in stock any where...

Some of you guys are acting like you can only choose one rifle for your collection AND will be actively carrying it in a tactical/deployed situation.. this is not the case for most here.  Even if you are issued a rifle, you are most likely going to own your own for off duty.  

AR's are not expensive.. I don't see a reason why any grown adult with a decent income couldn't afford a 20" and 16".. and even a 10.5"/11.5".  

For me I started with a 16" carbine back in the early 90's, went to a 20" A2 for CMP target shooting, then to M4 clones, then to SBR'ing a few guns.  I can't look at one and think that I need to get rid of it because it's not relevant today.. I love them all and pull a different one out for each range trip!

These have become somewhat hard to find and the prices have gone through the roof.  I was able to snag a brand new set from Brownells last year though, you can get on their notify list...

whats a 'Schmid' mark?

Is there a KAC M5 RAS that is free floating?  and are they usually slap on or have to be 'installed'  

Some are floating around. Have to be installed. Armalite and LaRue look similar.

Was the compM4 the only red dot used, or were older aimpoints used prior?

Are you sure? I always thought all M5 RAS like the M4 RAS were slip on non free floating hand guard replacements. The RIS is the free floating rail, which is presently not being produced and the few for sale are unobtainable at realistic prices.

Schmid makes the hammer and FCG.

Manufacturers mark

ok thanks

OKthanks

I wouldn't call the KAC RIS free floating.  Locking screw is behind front handguard cap, rear goes into Delta ring like a standard handguard.  Bottom rail is same as RAS.  My Mk18 Mod 0 clone still has a RIS and I got issued the RIS on my M4A1 back in 95' or so.  DD RIS II is free floating.

CD

I would say yes, as depends on what was on the units property books at the time.  

CD

CD I may have used the wrong term for KAC rail I was thinking of. I’m thinking of the RAS or RIS rail that KAC made and is used on the MK12 MOD1, the NSW REECE and I “believe” on the M16 DMR?

Completed a few days ago

Attached File

Nice work, love the lower.!

Lately I've been taking my M16A4 clone to the range a lot!  My local range has gongs at 100, 200, 300, and 400, and I've been able to hit the 400 (and the others) after learning my ACOG.  I think so many have moved on to SBR's, Pistols and shorter setups that are all dressed up that many don't give the full size gun any consideration now.  I was certainly at that point... I have probably a dozen shorter AR's that I've acquired over the many years of being in the hobby but didn't have a 20".    

My history- I started with a Colt Carbine back in 1993, then got into 20" Match Target H-Bars and even shot a few CMP matches... I got into this on a total whim- several guys I work with were shooting matches and one of them had won some national matches, so it was fun to jump in and learn from all of these guys.  Made it fun to work with guys that wanted to go shoot and be competitive with an AR.  Fun times, but I ended up getting promoted and moved on a few years later.  I think I ended up selling my 20" Match target H-bar for $700 in the mid 2000's... after the ban was over it seemed like no one wanted them.  

In the late 90's I started building/buying M4gery clones, and built/bought Colt M4's and from there on I never touched another 20" AR15.  So about a year ago I decided to seek out another Colt 20" gun, and much to my dismay I saw that prices were very much up (last year at this time they were!).  I never really considered doing a M16A4 setup, but since I was looking at 20" guns it was definitely the way to go.  After only a few weeks of looking a really nice AR15A4 stamped gun that already had the KAC rails popped up locally at a fair price and the rest is history.  Picked out a good ACOG and hit the range... and now I'm hooked!!  

For anyone on the fence and if you have the proper range/land to shoot it, go for it!  Sometimes going back to an older setup can help freshen things up.   Attached File

Are Colt upper receiver groups in stock anywhere?

You can get Brownell'd

Just because something is a better tool, doesn't take away the positives of an existing tool.

Yep, it's heavy with seemingly 24" of pic rails. Yep, it's not free floated which could affect accuracy. Yep, the marines fucked up by forcing that A2 length stock on us. Yep, a rifle doesn't clear a house as easy as an SBR.

But none of those are indictments either (ehhh, weight to an extent). Flexibility to mount shit you need on the rail. Not free floated, but sure as hell not fragile like lots of FF tubes either. Still don't like the A2 stock Not everything a rifle needs to do is clearing 10x10 rooms and 20" turns trash can 5.56 into a formidable round and turns premium ammo into canned lightning. It also lends itself to being the most pleasant shooting and perfectly gassed AR configuration ever made too.

It's all about purpose. I wouldn't set one up as an HD rifle because they aren't ideal inside a house, but my 11.5 sure isn't ideal when popping coyotes at 300-400 either.