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[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BB:
the OP should contain what makes a correct AR15A4 M16A4 clone like the cool kid clone threads.

One could probably write a fair sized book on all the changes that have been made to the M16A4 as a weapon system over time, so you can understand that it's somewhat difficult to do a write up to the effect of: "This is what constitutes an M16A4 clone..."

I sure someone will be along shortly to either refute or amend some of this, as I'm far from what I would consider to be a subject matter expert on it all, though I'll give it a try...

In regards to the M16A4, I generally view the weapon as having 3 distinct eras: "Early A4s", "The War Years" (to include US Army & Marine Corps variants), & "Modern Era A4s".

Early 'A4s...(July '97 - Sep '99)

Officially, the M16A4 was adopted on July 29th, 1997, to replace the M16A2 as the standard-issue rifle for both the U.S Army & the US Marine Corps. While there were prototypes rifles (XM16A2E4s) in use on dates before July of '97, their features (grey anodizing or such) are not generally considered when discussing "Early A4" clones.

Early M16A4s are noted by their use of:

M16A2 barrel assemblies (having rifle feed ramped barrel extensions & fixed carry-handle height front sight bases)
Non-"M" or "M4" marked flat-top upper receivers (these early A4 upper receivers did NOT have M4 Feed ramps)
They used peel-washers to time their flash suppressors during most of this period.
Most were delivered to their respective services equipped with standard ("shiny-surfaced") A2 hand guards.
They were delivered with standard detachable carry handle rear sights.
They all used metal trap doors in their A2 stock end plates.
Their safety selectors, while having a "tick" to indicate the mode of operation, were only single-sided (no ambidextrous safeties were in use) & the "lever" itself extended from the edge of the safety rather than from the middle as currently issued ones do.
Their A2 pistol grips also tended to be of a "shinier" black material & the bottom forward "bump" was not as pronounced as currently issued ones (it incorporated a smoother transition to the tip).
While the Parkerizing of the various steel components (Components like the barrel, hand guard retainer cap, flash suppressor, forward assist, rear sights on the detachable carry handle, ect.) were more "grey" in color than they were "black", the upper & lower receivers after the adoption date were anodized to a Type II (black) hard-coat specification. (Someone more knowledgeable than me may know if there were ever actually any "M16A4"s with "grey" receivers, though I know of none that were officially labeled as such.)
Early A4s were known to have used either the US M7, or US M9 bayonet (with early straight tube-style grip).
Sling-use varied between: standard M1-style sling or black A2 "silent" sling, though by sometime @ early '98?, various 3-point slings started showing up in use.
As for side-sling swivels, I'm not certain if it was only a Colt thing or what, but seems like some rifles had them, and others didn't. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in on this.

(Starting @ Oct '98? - early '99?)
A4s started showing up either equipped with, or were modified by the addition of, a KAC M5 Rail Adapter System (RAS).
These early drop-in rails tended to be more "purple" than "black" in color.

(For a short time between Oct '99 to @ early 2003(ish?))
ARMS #59M SIR systems would be seen to be installed on select units' M16A4s.

What I like to call...
"The War Years"...doesn't have so much to do with any particular "war" per se, but is basically from @ 2000 - 2010(ish)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of:

True A4 barrel assemblies having "M4" feed ramped barrel extensions & "F"-marked (detachable carry handle height) front sight bases.
Flat top "M" or "M4" marked upper receivers incorporating "M4" feed ramps.
They used "crush" washers to time their flash suppressors.
Their A2 pistol grips, while still incorporating the earlier tapering of the bottom "bump", were made of a notably less-shiny material.
The steel components (barrel, HG end caps, triggers, ect.) began having more of a true "black" coloring due to changes made in the surface-treatment procedures.
These rifles began being delivered with KAC (or later, P&S Products) M5 rail adapter systems pre-installed from the factory.
They still incorporated metal (aluminum) trap door assembles in their A2 stocks, though the stock-body materials began being produced in a slightly more "grey" color, than the deeper "black" color of earlier models.
Sometime during the later part of this era (@ 2009ish?) ambidextrous safeties started showing up occasionally in use.
Detachable carry handles began to be phased out of deliveries (or packaged separately with the weapon) as A4s began to be shipped out with either no rear iron sights or had Matech back up rear iron sights equipped... Also, KAC 600m? sights were occasionally (though rarely) seen to be used rather than the Matechs during this time period. (May have been KAC 800m sights - my memory is somewhat hazy in this regard)
These rifles were often seen using Surefire M95 & M96-series weapon lights (M951/M952 or M961/M962 models both with & without the use of tape switches) The earliest ones had "wide" bodies (thicker) & "ribbed" head assemblies. Later ones used thinner bodies & had smooth head assemblies. These changes were made in an effort to lighten the accessory weight-wise, at the expense of heat dissipation.
Depending on the AO - Buttstock magazine pouches were often used during this time period. Most were seen to be black in color, though occasionally other color variants like olive drab or camo-patterned colors were used.
Sling use varied dramatically during this period, though most were seen to be of the 3-point type design, usually black in color, though like the stock pouches, were occasionally seen in other color variants. Near the latter part of this period (late 2006ish?), Blue Force Gear 2-point slings began to be seen occasionally in use on A4s.
Also, during this period, many of the standard 30rd magazines with field units were upgraded by the use of Magpul "anti-tilt" followers. Later (circa 2009), the military began procuring their own version of this follower for use in all their future magazine purchases.

US Army variants tended to use Aimpoint M68 red dot sights (Comp M2 earlier, or Comp M3.. maybe Comp M4 for very late models? - I'm not sure exactly when the Comp M4 & M4s models actually started making the rounds)
Us Army variants were also noted to still be using either US M7 or M9 bayonets.

Marine Corps variants usually were noted to be using a Trijicon scope (TA01NSN & TA31-F? models earlier, & TA31RCOA4 models later)
The original TA51 mounts on these optics were at first shipped with knobs facing toward the left side of the weapon. Later this was changed to have the knobs of the TA51 mount face toward the right side. (or was it the other way around?...I can't recall now.)
The Marines started using the OKC3S bayonet with this rifle from @ 2003 onward.

Modern Era M16A4s (Circa 2011(ish) to Present)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of the following:

Their A2 pistol grips have a distinctive "shelf-like" tapering of the bottom "bump" of the grip, as well as a squared-off taper to the top side profile of the grip. Furthermore, these grips tend to be lighter black in color, nearing closer to a "grey-scale" than "black" and have a flat, non-reflective surface finish.
They use one of 3 different types of safeties - The first being like the older format (War Years) safety except that it is reversible for use with South-Paws, the second is an ambidextrous safety that has a shortened lever on the non-dominant (non-thumb) side, and the 3rd is non-ambidextrous safety though the "lever" extends from the center of the safety rather than from the edge of the safety as those of the previous eras.
The trap doors of the A2 stock assemblies, while still using metal retaining latches, are occasionally found to have plastic door bodies rather than the metal (aluminum) bodies of previous eras. (Though I'm not sure if this is an actual change to the A4 specification, or rather some type of screw-up in the supply chain.)
These rifles are delivered with either Matech or KAC rear sights equipped, rather than with detachable carry handles.
They are often seen equipped with either black or coyote colored Blue Force Gear NSN Vickers 2-point slings & mounts, though M1 slings are occasionally seen in use for "parade" or "training" purposes/exercises.
These rifles are almost exclusively used with either the Trijicon TA31RCOA4 scope (for the US Marines), or the Aimpoint M68 (COMP M4 & M4S) red dot sights (for the US Army).
The TA51 mounts used with the Trijicon scopes were, or rather ...are, commonly replaced with LaRue Tactical quick release lever mounts.
As of this posting, I believe there are no longer any A4s that are still equipped with standard A2 hand guards. They should all be equipped with KAC M5 drop-in rails. (That I know of)
Right around this time frame (2010ish), LED lighting began to really make itself known in the weapon light industry, and as such - M16A4s began to be seen with Surefire M952V LED/Infrared convertible weapon lights, or Surefire M600v? LED "Scout" weapon lights in use. (Not sure of the actual Scout model number, though I believe it was in the 600-type series)

Because of the often rapid, constantly changing nature of the use & development of night vision accessories & laser sighting equipment, I have purposefully not touched upon their use with the M16A4 in this posting, and shall leave that to the AR15 community's more knowledgeable fellows to expound upon.

On a side note:
Throughout the last two eras (War Years & Modern), there have been a number of "Field Modifications" (some "approved" & others ...not-so-much) to the M16A4 weapon system. One such modification, has been the replacement of the Standard A2 stock assembly with a collapsible one such as the Lewis Machine & Tool Company (or also B5 Systems) SOPMOD Stock, or the Veltor "A5" stock assembly. While these "Mods" may have been approved for temporary "fielded" use, while so modified, these weapons are generally no longer considered to be classed among other "M16A4s", but rather among the status of "Special Weapons" or unofficially as "M16A5s". Because these weapons (as modified) no longer fit either the physical description or technical specifications of that of an M16A4, clones which are based around these modifications are generally not considered to be among M16A4 "clones".

Maybe later I will go back through this adding a few relevant pictures, but I think this is about the best I can come up with at present, and hopefully it will be enough to help you to sort things out...

Mike (FlDiveCop71)

ETA: This write up, while general in nature, primarily refers to completed M16A4 weapons' configurations as they were delivered to the US military @ the timeframes mentioned, and should not be construed as absolutes as to actual configurations that may be found in the field, either presently or at the aforementioned time periods. While the military supply system may continue to provide newly manufactured components built to outdated specifications, these items are primarily intended & supplied as "replacement" components for older weapons, rather than as revisionary components for newly issued M16A4s. Though some mention is made as to various options & accessories used in association with the M16A4 throughout these periods, please note that these comments are by no means the end-all / be-all of what was either available for use, or actually issued to the troops, but rather that which has been either known personally, or shown through reliable sources to have been used @ these periods. ...FDC71.

@HighpowerRifleBrony

Well,

An M16A4 with an ACOG, M203, leaf sight, M962, PEQ-2A, BFG sling, loaded mag is right at 14 lbs

Plus however much a cleaning kit, rail covers, pressure switches, etc. weighs.

Might as well add a 1 lb bayonet too.

TA01NSN was SOPMOD issue. Army might have bought some TA01NSNs COTS in the 2000s before the M150 was adopted. but the most common was the TA31F.

That's a commercial FN barrel. Not clone correct just because of the M4 feedramps and the profile at the end but it's pretty close and is likely a good barrel.

Thanks for the info on the barrel. Are m4 ramps correct for any m16a4? I read on the first page that they were gtg?.

Nope. Started as an AR15A4 thing. Not sure where that's coming from.

So would I need m4 upper with m16 ramps?
Or rifle/m16 upper, with m16 ramps?
Or are both correct at different times/branches?


Oh, and what should the profile be? Sorry for all the questions. I thought I knew what I was doing with piecing one together, but now I'm not sure

Maybe it was changed in a later post, but this is from post 1 on the first page:

“What I like to call...
"The War Years"...doesn't have so much to do with any particular "war" per se, but is basically from @ 2000 - 2010(ish)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of:

True A4 barrel assemblies having "M4" feed ramped barrel extensions & "F"-marked (detachable carry handle height) front sight bases.
Flat top "M" or "M4" marked upper receivers incorporating "M4" feed ramps.”

This is the source of my confusion.

I believe they say it's calibrated for A4 and M4 but the TA31RCOA4 in the clone correct model.

There was a bunch of legit FN surplus ones available, maybe there's still a few floating around.

Depends how correct you want to be but you would want an era correct upper receiver without M4 feedramps, an era correct barrel without feedramps and with an F marked FSB.

I haven't seen any evidence of M4 upper receivers or barrels with M4 feedramps being issued. I personally have a Colt AR15A4 URG but it's not a clone. It doesn't hurt function to have them, just not correct. The positive is you can't see them from the outside. The FN CHF barrels are nice as well and arguably better than issued, just not correct.

This is what an A4 barrel looks like:

Attached File

I just skimmed through it, I don't know where he's getting that from since those new surplus uppers don't have M4 feedramps. We had Colt M16A4s in the mid 2000s and they didn't have M4 feedramps.

USMC only.

The M150 is the exact same reticle as the RCO-M4.

That helps me understand it a bit better. Damn, there were some M16 mueller uppers not long ago, and I passed em up for an m4 Meuller upper. Maybe there are some left.

so it looks like the fn barrel with their cage code is the one I'm looking for.

Looks like 1 USGI URG on GunBroker for $1K.

I was checking that one out. I may hold out for an ee deal and save a few hundred. Now that I'm looking, I'll prob won't see any for a while. That always seems to happen.
Thanks again for clearing that info up. That info on the first page really threw me off. I’d rather get as close to correct to start with because I know down the line I’ll be swapping parts out for more correct ones if I don’t.

There’s no way I’d pay $1,135 for an A4 upper receiver assembly, let alone one with no BCG or charging handle.

M16A3/A4 upper receiver has rifle ramps and barreled assembly has rifle ramp barrel extension.  Different NSNs between M16AA3/4 (1005-01-454-9880) and M4/M4A1 (1005-01-382-6795) uppers.  Barrels between M16A2 (1005-01-146-7684) and M16A4 (1005-01-454-1629) are also different NSNs which I would assume to be the F marked FSB for the M16A3/A4.  

Note:  Somewhere the M16A3 moved from fixed A2 upper to A4 flat top.  FCG is still full auto instead of burst.  Only ones I've ever came across belong to the SEABEEs early in Iraq 04' that had A2 carrying handle uppers.

Source: TM 9-1005-319-23&P November 2008

Armory builds
Attached File

Attached File


CD

Ya, I won't pay that much either.

Thanks for the info. Did the A4's happen to have a standard m5 ras, or have you happen to see any of the navy m5 ras' with odd number ris style t-marks with a locking lower portion? I came across some navy m5 ras, like what I described, and just wondered if you could verify their use?

Eta- here is an example of one with the ris style numbering.
Attached File

Those uppers were built back in 16’. While we did have Navy, they were SEAL support there. The M16s on hand then belonged to MARSOC. Don’t remember the numbering

CD

My daughter a few months ago. I need to get her back out. Attached File

Why is it so hard to come across m16 barrels seems to be non existent finding barrels for these
The last couple years ever since I joined I’ve only have seen a handful for sale

You are missing them.

It happens to the best of us.....

I get email notifications on every ad that I’m subscribed too lol I look daily if I have been missing out please show me we’re .
We’re these easier to find back in the day ? I am a newer member they definitely don’t pop up like 14.5 colt barrels do

Man, I shoulda jumped when I had the chance. Missed a complete colt m16a4 upper in the EE for an awesome price too. Stupid me.

(Edited)

Has anyone ever seen an SDO/TA11 on a USMC M16A4? I'm committed to the USMC clone but God I hate the RCO eye relief

I'll do it if it's the only correct thing though, and I suspect it is.

As far as my knowledge they only ran the 4x32s never seen a pic in the wild of a ta11.

Brownells has the Cav Arms A1 stock for sale. The buttplate is horrid dog$hit but the shell is usable. Swap the buttplate of your A2 stock onto the A1 shell, put it on, and tell me you can see the difference. I was in the same boat after coming back from the range with my former "S-DMR-ish" clone and those 5/8" are hardly missed visually.

I’ve noticed having shorter arms it’s not very comfortable reaching to get that eye relief on the Acog like your saying you could go A1 stock, no rear buis run Acog as far back as possible, or get the larue rco Acog mount

Other option is to get a Vltor A5 kit and install that on the lower. Technically never deployed but it was proposed iirc and looks just as milspec.

If the Cav arms stock is a copy of the Type E A1 stock, I can tell you right now that I can spot the difference immediately. If it's just an A1 length A2 style then maybe not.

It looks like an A1 length A2 but I forgot the sling mount slot lets it move 180* so never mind, its still garbage.

Can you guys direct me to the correct issue magazine coupler... you know where there was another magazine hooked up to the one inserted... thanks

SOCOM issued the Redi-Mag for the M4A1.  Never was one for the M16 series to my knowledge besides 100mph tape.

CD

So...how 'incorrect' would a Brownells Retro 4x scope look on A4?

about 40 yrs in techinology.

CD

So older A4s were never equipped with colt 3x or 4x scopes and fielded by Uncle Sam? Bummer.

M16/M16A1s possible.  M16A4 would have been ACOGs

CD

That optic is closer on the tech timeline to the M1 Carbine than an A4...

Finally complete:
Attached File


My own tribute to the Marine M16A4 while also nodding to how my Army unit’s rifles were set up in Iraq. Aero Precision lower built on a PSA premium upper kit, MaTech BUIS, RCOA4 Acog, and BFG sling. I think this is complete for now.

With its little brother, which is the spitting image of my M4 from Iraq with a nod to the slings they issued us in Afghanistan:
Attached File

Lots of beautiful builds here! Mine is underway - hopefully wrapped in a month or so. Does anyone have a spare M203 spacer? My NIB M5 kit arrived with three panels but no other accessories.

ETA - Have one! Thank you all for the generous offers! I really appreciate it!

Would the full size KAC 600m Rear BUIS be a clone correct option for the A4?  I have several of them, but do not have a matech.  
I’ve been looking, but haven’t seen one on an A4….just thought I’d ask before buying another sight.

Thanks!

Your BUIS is an issued sight just not commonly seen on an A4.  I'm sure its been done.

CD

I think I can finally call this build finished? KAC rail, grip & sights, A4 ACOG, LaRue LT622SDO-A mount, Colt F4 grip, everything else is FN except the lower receiver itself.

Anything is possible in the reserves and national guard

Took my a2 and a4 out to the range today to test some hand loads.  77gr Sierra Match Kings with A2520.  Based on testing in other rifles I’d settled on 24.5 grains and 2.26” OAL.



The a2 is a Colt MT6700 that I swapped the barrel over to a NIW FN 20” a2 that Ohio Ordinance Works had MANY years ago.  I also scored a large pin Geissele SSA off the EE.  The a4 is a factory BCM upper on a DPMS lower.  Geissele SSA as well.  The ACOG is a TA31 with the red doughnut and a Larue Marine mount.  The barrel is not an a2 profile, it’s .75” all the way so I guess you could call it a mid profile.

I’d moved the ACOG forward on the upper so I knew it would be a little off.

Shot three five shot groups from the a4.  The worst was 1.63”



You can see the groups track down and to the left as I adjusted the ACOG.

The best was the last at .54”!





I’m obviously VERY happy with how well this barrel shoots.  I did have some issues with consistent target hold due to the “doughnut of death” and I attribute my larger groups to that.

Edit

Any good source for stock kit's for A4's


I have one stripped lower left and i dont have a 20" rifle



Eyeing a colt 20" upper right now

Shark Arms has FN M16A2 buttstock kits for $115 shipped.

Colt AR-15A4 CK conversion kit complete upper half, Colt detachable carry handle and old Colt Match Target lower half with Colt AR-15 30 rd mag.