" />

.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BB:
the OP should contain what makes a correct AR15A4 M16A4 clone like the cool kid clone threads.

One could probably write a fair sized book on all the changes that have been made to the M16A4 as a weapon system over time, so you can understand that it's somewhat difficult to do a write up to the effect of: "This is what constitutes an M16A4 clone..."

I sure someone will be along shortly to either refute or amend some of this, as I'm far from what I would consider to be a subject matter expert on it all, though I'll give it a try...

In regards to the M16A4, I generally view the weapon as having 3 distinct eras: "Early A4s", "The War Years" (to include US Army & Marine Corps variants), & "Modern Era A4s".

Early 'A4s...(July '97 - Sep '99)

Officially, the M16A4 was adopted on July 29th, 1997, to replace the M16A2 as the standard-issue rifle for both the U.S Army & the US Marine Corps. While there were prototypes rifles (XM16A2E4s) in use on dates before July of '97, their features (grey anodizing or such) are not generally considered when discussing "Early A4" clones.

Early M16A4s are noted by their use of:

M16A2 barrel assemblies (having rifle feed ramped barrel extensions & fixed carry-handle height front sight bases)
Non-"M" or "M4" marked flat-top upper receivers (these early A4 upper receivers did NOT have M4 Feed ramps)
They used peel-washers to time their flash suppressors during most of this period.
Most were delivered to their respective services equipped with standard ("shiny-surfaced") A2 hand guards.
They were delivered with standard detachable carry handle rear sights.
They all used metal trap doors in their A2 stock end plates.
Their safety selectors, while having a "tick" to indicate the mode of operation, were only single-sided (no ambidextrous safeties were in use) & the "lever" itself extended from the edge of the safety rather than from the middle as currently issued ones do.
Their A2 pistol grips also tended to be of a "shinier" black material & the bottom forward "bump" was not as pronounced as currently issued ones (it incorporated a smoother transition to the tip).
While the Parkerizing of the various steel components (Components like the barrel, hand guard retainer cap, flash suppressor, forward assist, rear sights on the detachable carry handle, ect.) were more "grey" in color than they were "black", the upper & lower receivers after the adoption date were anodized to a Type II (black) hard-coat specification. (Someone more knowledgeable than me may know if there were ever actually any "M16A4"s with "grey" receivers, though I know of none that were officially labeled as such.)
Early A4s were known to have used either the US M7, or US M9 bayonet (with early straight tube-style grip).
Sling-use varied between: standard M1-style sling or black A2 "silent" sling, though by sometime @ early '98?, various 3-point slings started showing up in use.
As for side-sling swivels, I'm not certain if it was only a Colt thing or what, but seems like some rifles had them, and others didn't. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in on this.

(Starting @ Oct '98? - early '99?)
A4s started showing up either equipped with, or were modified by the addition of, a KAC M5 Rail Adapter System (RAS).
These early drop-in rails tended to be more "purple" than "black" in color.

(For a short time between Oct '99 to @ early 2003(ish?))
ARMS #59M SIR systems would be seen to be installed on select units' M16A4s.

What I like to call...
"The War Years"...doesn't have so much to do with any particular "war" per se, but is basically from @ 2000 - 2010(ish)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of:

True A4 barrel assemblies having "M4" feed ramped barrel extensions & "F"-marked (detachable carry handle height) front sight bases.
Flat top "M" or "M4" marked upper receivers incorporating "M4" feed ramps.
They used "crush" washers to time their flash suppressors.
Their A2 pistol grips, while still incorporating the earlier tapering of the bottom "bump", were made of a notably less-shiny material.
The steel components (barrel, HG end caps, triggers, ect.) began having more of a true "black" coloring due to changes made in the surface-treatment procedures.
These rifles began being delivered with KAC (or later, P&S Products) M5 rail adapter systems pre-installed from the factory.
They still incorporated metal (aluminum) trap door assembles in their A2 stocks, though the stock-body materials began being produced in a slightly more "grey" color, than the deeper "black" color of earlier models.
Sometime during the later part of this era (@ 2009ish?) ambidextrous safeties started showing up occasionally in use.
Detachable carry handles began to be phased out of deliveries (or packaged separately with the weapon) as A4s began to be shipped out with either no rear iron sights or had Matech back up rear iron sights equipped... Also, KAC 600m? sights were occasionally (though rarely) seen to be used rather than the Matechs during this time period. (May have been KAC 800m sights - my memory is somewhat hazy in this regard)
These rifles were often seen using Surefire M95 & M96-series weapon lights (M951/M952 or M961/M962 models both with & without the use of tape switches) The earliest ones had "wide" bodies (thicker) & "ribbed" head assemblies. Later ones used thinner bodies & had smooth head assemblies. These changes were made in an effort to lighten the accessory weight-wise, at the expense of heat dissipation.
Depending on the AO - Buttstock magazine pouches were often used during this time period. Most were seen to be black in color, though occasionally other color variants like olive drab or camo-patterned colors were used.
Sling use varied dramatically during this period, though most were seen to be of the 3-point type design, usually black in color, though like the stock pouches, were occasionally seen in other color variants. Near the latter part of this period (late 2006ish?), Blue Force Gear 2-point slings began to be seen occasionally in use on A4s.
Also, during this period, many of the standard 30rd magazines with field units were upgraded by the use of Magpul "anti-tilt" followers. Later (circa 2009), the military began procuring their own version of this follower for use in all their future magazine purchases.

US Army variants tended to use Aimpoint M68 red dot sights (Comp M2 earlier, or Comp M3.. maybe Comp M4 for very late models? - I'm not sure exactly when the Comp M4 & M4s models actually started making the rounds)
Us Army variants were also noted to still be using either US M7 or M9 bayonets.

Marine Corps variants usually were noted to be using a Trijicon scope (TA01NSN & TA31-F? models earlier, & TA31RCOA4 models later)
The original TA51 mounts on these optics were at first shipped with knobs facing toward the left side of the weapon. Later this was changed to have the knobs of the TA51 mount face toward the right side. (or was it the other way around?...I can't recall now.)
The Marines started using the OKC3S bayonet with this rifle from @ 2003 onward.

Modern Era M16A4s (Circa 2011(ish) to Present)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of the following:

Their A2 pistol grips have a distinctive "shelf-like" tapering of the bottom "bump" of the grip, as well as a squared-off taper to the top side profile of the grip. Furthermore, these grips tend to be lighter black in color, nearing closer to a "grey-scale" than "black" and have a flat, non-reflective surface finish.
They use one of 3 different types of safeties - The first being like the older format (War Years) safety except that it is reversible for use with South-Paws, the second is an ambidextrous safety that has a shortened lever on the non-dominant (non-thumb) side, and the 3rd is non-ambidextrous safety though the "lever" extends from the center of the safety rather than from the edge of the safety as those of the previous eras.
The trap doors of the A2 stock assemblies, while still using metal retaining latches, are occasionally found to have plastic door bodies rather than the metal (aluminum) bodies of previous eras. (Though I'm not sure if this is an actual change to the A4 specification, or rather some type of screw-up in the supply chain.)
These rifles are delivered with either Matech or KAC rear sights equipped, rather than with detachable carry handles.
They are often seen equipped with either black or coyote colored Blue Force Gear NSN Vickers 2-point slings & mounts, though M1 slings are occasionally seen in use for "parade" or "training" purposes/exercises.
These rifles are almost exclusively used with either the Trijicon TA31RCOA4 scope (for the US Marines), or the Aimpoint M68 (COMP M4 & M4S) red dot sights (for the US Army).
The TA51 mounts used with the Trijicon scopes were, or rather ...are, commonly replaced with LaRue Tactical quick release lever mounts.
As of this posting, I believe there are no longer any A4s that are still equipped with standard A2 hand guards. They should all be equipped with KAC M5 drop-in rails. (That I know of)
Right around this time frame (2010ish), LED lighting began to really make itself known in the weapon light industry, and as such - M16A4s began to be seen with Surefire M952V LED/Infrared convertible weapon lights, or Surefire M600v? LED "Scout" weapon lights in use. (Not sure of the actual Scout model number, though I believe it was in the 600-type series)

Because of the often rapid, constantly changing nature of the use & development of night vision accessories & laser sighting equipment, I have purposefully not touched upon their use with the M16A4 in this posting, and shall leave that to the AR15 community's more knowledgeable fellows to expound upon.

On a side note:
Throughout the last two eras (War Years & Modern), there have been a number of "Field Modifications" (some "approved" & others ...not-so-much) to the M16A4 weapon system. One such modification, has been the replacement of the Standard A2 stock assembly with a collapsible one such as the Lewis Machine & Tool Company (or also B5 Systems) SOPMOD Stock, or the Veltor "A5" stock assembly. While these "Mods" may have been approved for temporary "fielded" use, while so modified, these weapons are generally no longer considered to be classed among other "M16A4s", but rather among the status of "Special Weapons" or unofficially as "M16A5s". Because these weapons (as modified) no longer fit either the physical description or technical specifications of that of an M16A4, clones which are based around these modifications are generally not considered to be among M16A4 "clones".

Maybe later I will go back through this adding a few relevant pictures, but I think this is about the best I can come up with at present, and hopefully it will be enough to help you to sort things out...

Mike (FlDiveCop71)

ETA: This write up, while general in nature, primarily refers to completed M16A4 weapons' configurations as they were delivered to the US military @ the timeframes mentioned, and should not be construed as absolutes as to actual configurations that may be found in the field, either presently or at the aforementioned time periods. While the military supply system may continue to provide newly manufactured components built to outdated specifications, these items are primarily intended & supplied as "replacement" components for older weapons, rather than as revisionary components for newly issued M16A4s. Though some mention is made as to various options & accessories used in association with the M16A4 throughout these periods, please note that these comments are by no means the end-all / be-all of what was either available for use, or actually issued to the troops, but rather that which has been either known personally, or shown through reliable sources to have been used @ these periods. ...FDC71.

I don't think that's true with the thumbscrew or Larue mount.

ETA
These are 1 notch back from "normal", no BUIS is fitting there.

Attached File

Attached File

Attached File

Bummer. Thanks!!  These pictures are gold.
This photo is what was giving me the hope.

Attached File

Thanks, wish I could help you with the LaRue mount issue, but I've never used one with an Acog in or out of the army.

As far as the m16a4 clone goes... You should build one, they're fairly easy to build (finding parts wise) and they're a fun shooter.

Maybe there's just enough room if you push the BUIS all the way back in the slot and the ACOG all the way forward.

Surefire M951 arrived today.

I think I'm just gonna leave the factory trijicon mount on the acog. Now I'm just trying to decide which direction I want to go between colt, fn, or sabre.  Are any one of them branch specific? I've recently read up on sabre and a lot of people are very happy with their barrels etc. I also read how the owners got into some legal trouble. I mostly see fn and sabre come up for sale, but colt are gtg too, right? I haven't owned an ar with an a2 stock yet, so I'm pretty pumped about the build. I love the look of a1/a2 stocks, but I mostly have shorties that don't quite look right with that combo.

I can see that purple from the rail peeking through. Looks good. Is that a PA prism sight?

Everyone brags about red dots, but not one on an A4. Any images?

Army went from primarily the M16A2 to the M4 carbine in theater.  Few M16A4 went to deployed troops.

CD

I remember seeing a bunch of pics of 4th ID with A4’s with red dots from Iraq 2003.  Just googled it too to make sure I wasn’t imagining.  They had an interesting spread of A2’s all the way thru M4’s.

2ID had a mix of M16A4s and M4s up until 2005. Most of them had CompM2 M68s.

Got my FN stock from Shark in today. Seems genuine as far as I can tell, but I really don’t know what I’m doing. Foam filled core, threads dry lubed and buttplate/trapdoor are plastic. Anything else I should be looking for?

Yup.  ACOG for teh poors.  It's a gen I PAC5X.  They don't even admit to have made them anymore.

I had an Aimpoint on my issued M16A4.  We didn't have A4s very long though

Genuine "Teh Poors®" FakCOG from ebay my buddy loaned me for pictures.

Looks similar to the one I had. Shiny black finish on the steel parts screams commercial to me. At least you didn't get a black spring I guess.

I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

I'd rather use just a BUIS or carry handle if I couldn't afford a clone correct optic.

My Colt A4 I bought as a retirement gift to myself 4 years ago. Attached File

Best get to saving up for a lower with a happy switch if you're that much of a purist.  Especially since it's hard to find a photo of a real deal A4 outside boot camp without an optic.

Some things obviously get a pass due to availability/attain-ability. Optics, especially acogs which have flooded the EE since the lpvo craze, isn't one of them. C'mon man. Just bustin balls. As said before, I really like the purple tint on your m5 ras. What are the other specs?  Looks good otherwise.

Nice! What light is that? I can't tell from this angle.

Looks like a Streamlight ProTac. Good, modern budget stand in for a Surefire.


https://aimsurplus.com/streamlight-protac-rail-mount-2-long-gun-light/

Unless you find a clapped-out TA01 with dead tritium, you're still paying more for the optic than it costs to build the base rifle (PSA 20" kit comes with a FN CHF barrel for just over $700). And he "claims" he borrowed it at least. Though if I were shopping for a budget optic I'd put a Burris AR-332 (Has a rough Aimpoint aesthetic) or a Sig Romeo and Juliet combo up top.

I guess I'm a purist then and need to get an M16A4 lower.

Iron sights are more reliable (and clone correct) than any shit Chinese ACOG. I don't care if it looks right from across the room, it's a waste of money.

What sling you running there, I’ve been looking for that configuration but am at a loss?

William

That's what my guess was, but I wasn't sure.

I get what you're saying. But throwing a cheap acog clone on an otherwise great looking rifle isn't adding anything. I know a lot of good quality budget optics are available on the market, but I've always felt a good optic will cost at least as much as the rifle it's going on, if not more. I guess I'm in the camp that would rather see it pictured without an optic, as an in progress build.

its an older Blackhawk 3 point. i replaced it with the correct BFG sling.

Any links for this sling? I was going to use a USGI black silent sling...

Attached File


We used to have them where I work but don’t carry them anymore. I don’t even know if Blackhawk still makes them.

Until I win the lottery or find someone who has no idea what the resale value of their TA-31RCO is...

The cheap Chinese knock-off I'm keeping on the gun is my Primary Arm ACSS 5x Prism (which I like better as a scope than anything Trijicon has produced).  It's not a tough as the real thing, but I'm not an infantryman in the dirt so that matters far less.  It doesn't look the part as well as the cheap-ass FACOG, but...



Other specs?  This thing is a throw-together "let's clear out the parts bin" special.

Rock River Arms A2 stock, DPMS rifle extension and buffer assembly, DPMS forward assist and dust cover, Aero-Precision matched upper and lower (I'm Your Huckleberry marked), CMMG FCG, Palmetto State BCG, Brownell's gov't profile chrome-lined 1:7 barrel, KAC micro 600m BUIS.

Except for the barrel, this was in my safe as a 16" middy 6.8 SPC gun for years.  The 6.8 parts migrated to a new build and this one became an A4 clone.

It goes nicely with the M16, M16A1, M16A2 and M4 clones.  I am seriously thinking of parting out the upper on the "first attempt" A1 because of the early no-chrome MP 12 barrel.  Looking at gunbroker, I think I can sell that barrel for enough to get a Brownell's 1:12 retro barrel to replace it and get a real ACOG!

Attached File

UNIVERSAL SWIFT SLING

Not an exact clone but close enough. Just need the barrel now.

wow, that is quite the frankenA4. Not a bad idea on selling the barrel. I got lucky and happened to find someone
Wanting to trade. That's how I ended up with my TA01. It was previously painted, but other than that, it was in fantastic shape.

Artsy/ glamor shot!

Nice start. Bcm or Meuller upper?

I've got a stripped Meuller Demco upper with m4 feedramps. Pretty sure it was a contract upper. Would that be a good starting point for a m16a4? Or should I hold off for a colt, fn, or sabre?

I believe Colt's A4 barrel are the only ones with a M4 extension. FN has rifle extensions

BCM

How clone incorrect are the HL-X lights? I picked up a couple on sale at Midway for my A4 and M4 clones in progress.

Attached File
Attached File

The FN barrels that come with psa uppers have m4 feedramps. According to PSA’s site anyhow.

I hope everyone here is happy with what they made me do.  You're all abusers.

Turns out I had a couple things in my safe that a buddy wanted more than the price of this ACOG.




TA31RCOM150

ARD and front flippy cover on order.

Still not clone correct but definitely looks better!

Looking good!

With grenade launcher, laser, light, sling, cleaning kit, stock pouch, etc, what's the heaviest these can get?

Dang. Is it new?

Got on the EE.  Trijicon says it's genuine surplus, no warranty, but they'd be happy to let me pay for servicing. Born on date: 01DEC11.

Nice! Looks good!

Is the m150 correct/calibrated for the m4?

Disregard,  misunderstood.

Yes, calibrated for M855 from a 14.5" barrel.

I guess it would be correct for a newer Army M16A4 (if those still exist) with an ACOG though since the Army never adopted a 20" variant of the ACOG

Is the rco a4 correct for marines? What era/branch would a TA01 go on?

Now I gotta pull the trigger on a barrel. I found an upper for a good price with a 20" rifle length, FN button rifled barrel. I'm considering getting it to pull the barrel. Are the button rifled barrels fn barrels correct in any way?
eta:


Attached File

Attached File

FN AR15 premium button rifled barrels are are manufactured using U.S. sourced Chrome Moly Venadium material per Mil-B-11595E. Each barrel is High Pressure Tested (HPT) and Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI) to ensure that it is free of microstresses or flaws, resulting in consistency and quality in every barrel shipped from the factory. The bore and chamber are chrome lined to help resist corrosion and provide resistance to heat erosion which greatly improves barrel life and reliable chambering / extraction. The M4 style feed ramps and barrel extension provide consistent feeding and the matte black Manganese Phosphate finish resists external corrosion and oxidation. Currently available in a chambering of 5.56 x 45mm in the following profiles and gas system lengths 10.5" Government Carbine, 14.7" Government Midlength, 14.7" M4 Carbine, 16" M4 Carbine, 16" Government Carbine, 16" Government Midlength, 18" Government Rifle, 20" Government Rifle.