New to the forum, did a search found nada.

I was considering an AR variant for varmint and target. Looked at a new JP Enterprises rifle. Talk about awesome! Machined upper and receiver, cryoed barrel, the works. COnsidering the 20" barrel with the Cooley supressor. I have a $2k budget and want the best I can get for the money I have. Optics will be additional. Any input regarding their rifles (not individual parts installed on others rifles)?? Was also considering the Bushmaster Predator but side by side the JP makes the Predator look and feel like an off shore POShere
Discuss

hmmm...

did I ruffle feathers with my reference to a sponsor? Not my intention. Nobody has experience with these rifles??

www.jprifle.com

not many people here have them I dont think,  there are the select few but most people have the run of the mill bushy.  I use alot of their parts, and so do alot of peeps here  but dont really see many of their complete weapons here.  Buy the bushy and reload for it,  will perform as good as the JP.  Any AR done right is capable of  under 1/2" groups,  the diff in the bushy and the JP is you get the cadilac parts with the JP already

BTW your run of the mill shooter will never see that 1/4" at 100yds.  Colt Guarantee's my Match Target Comp HBAR will shoot 1MOA at 100 yards,  with  open sights I am lucky to hit the fucking backstop.
I do know to get any AR to shoot in the 1/4" it takes alot of load tuning

We have achieved test groups as small as .172" @ 100 yards with CTR-02 rifles.  Accuracy in the 1/4 MOA range is possible for those with the skill and the patience to do the work

I couldnt find where they guranteed .25MOA out of an AR.  There are very few gunsmiths that will make this kind of gurantee out of a rifle, let alone a gas gun.  I dont think it would be reasonable to expect to shoot .25 MOA with one of these.  If you were shooting out of a rest.vice, possibly.

You might pose your question at www.snipershide.com.  There is a lot of information shared there also on precision shooting

I've owned JP rifles since 1997.  They are the gold standard period.  What sets JP's rifles apart from everyone else is that they will shoot .25 MOA all day long from a bench, and then go CQB with anything else.  John Paul is one of the leaders in innovation to the AR platform.  Not being satisfied with the lowers out there, he started to machine his own.  

With collaboration from some of the best competition shooters and members of the Spec Ops community, JP has the best stable of shooters to draw feedback from (plus he's pretty damn good himself).

The JP CTR-02 rifle is incredible.  A completely new rifle that takes everything that has been a good idea or addition to an AR and puts it into one platform.  Included in the rifle system is a completely new Trijicon ACOG that JP worked out with the folks over there.  It cleans up of the mess that the TA-01 was, and plus corrects the trajectory map problem that existed with standard ACOG's.  Throw in the JPoint or SRTS and you've got a wicked rifle.

Another option too is to look at the JP rifles being put out by Kyle Lamb from Viking Tactics.  Kyle is a "seasoned" member of US Army Special Forces, and is one hell of a competition shooter too.  With JP he's come up with a great design for a competition/tactical/practical rifle.  

My current rifle was a collaboration between JP Enterprises and Mike Voigt.  Here's an older picture of it:



The only changes are the addition of an ACE stock, JP Low Mass Operating System and most importantly for teaching/tactical rifle I run a TA01NSN w/ JPoint on top AND a JP-SRTS on the handguard.  For IMGA/USPSA 3-Gun competitions, it's the same except I run a TA-11 and JPoint.  Too, as the stages need, I throw in a Harris Bi-pod and/or Redi-Mag (used as a mono-pod for stages with long swings and fast shots).

Hope that's some info.  If there's ANYTHING else you'd like to know about JP feel free to ask and I'll do my best.  JP is a huge sponsor of USPSA/IPSC/IMGA 3-Gun.  He's a great businessman, innovator and person.

Take care,

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK


ETA:  Forgot to mention.  This rifle shoots .25 MOA all day long with 69gr. SMK's, Varget and NO CASE PREP other than running them through a roll-sizer.  With my "plinker" load (i.e. 55gr. Winchester FMJ's and H335/W748 whichever is available), I get about .5-.75 MOA and only a .25-.5 MOA shift from POA.  Oh and for those that are curious, these numbers are sitting at a bench, off the bi-pod, no sandbags.  The rifle does most of the work, but I'm no slouch either.  

big dawg-

that's what I am talking about!he
I am concerned that if I went in another direction for less $$, I would end up spending more in mods trying to get anything else to perform close to where the JP does. Do you agree?

Check out Brianenos.com and some of the IPSC sites.  JP is pretty much the measuring stick for all competition AR's

03, it all depends on what you want to use your gun for.

Home defense

3 gun, or other competitive (precision) shooting

Plinking

Duty-rifle, etc

Once you determine that, the choices become better focused

JP products are among the best for the precision shooter, but impractical and over-blown for plinker's/Home defense, and even duty rifle applications

My suggestions would be:

Home defense: an M4 style due to size, customization (weapon-light, stock, etc), vesatility

Competition, precision shooter, 3-gun- JP, Wilson, others

Plinker's- Bushmaster, RRA, Armalite - a dozen others in even more configurations

Duty rifle/carbine: Colt LE series.

for an all around gun: Colt LE series, as it does all the above, save the long range precision application.

Read up on the forums here, and you will find a wealth of information that will help you find the best value for your 2K. After all that is a fair amount of money to invest in anything, and worth the time researching options

Welcome to the site!!

Quoted: 03, it all depends on what you want to use your gun for. Home defense 3 gun, or other competitive (precision) shooting Plinking Duty-rifle, etc Once you determine that, the choices become better focused JP products are among the best for the precision shooter, but impractical and over-blown for plinker's/Home defense, and even duty rifle applications My suggestions would be: Home defense: an M4 style due to size, customization (weapon-light, stock, etc), vesatility Competition, precision shooter, 3-gun- JP, Wilson, others Plinker's- Bushmaster, RRA, Armalite - a dozen others in even more configurations Duty rifle/carbine: Colt LE series. for an all around gun: Colt LE series, as it does all the above, save the long range precision application. Read up on the forums here, and you will find a wealth of information that will help you find the best value for your 2K. After all that is a fair amount of money to invest in anything, and worth the time researching options Welcome to the site!!

I would agree with the general sentiment of these comments.  

The JP will have much tighter tolerances, which equate to frustration in dirty environments or lots of shooting between cleanings.  You will probably also lose the advantage of parts interchangability. The precision comes from being tight, and a little bit of gunk is going to hose the works.  There is a good reason that military gear is not overly toleranced.

Many of the great shooting SPR's that guys on this forum are building are still based around Mil-Std parts.  If you can accomplish the feat, then you get the best of both worlds.  That will be the goal for my current build.

5Shot

ETA - Hell!!! I  missed my celebration for #223 (a while ago at that) - guess I have to wait for 556

Is this what you are looking for?










JP Enterprises CTR-02 Varminter

1:9 Twist 24" Heavy Barrel
3-3.5lb trigger (if it is over 2.5lbs I'll kiss your ass)
Tactical Operating System
Bench Rest Stock
JP Brake
Presentation Grade Silver & Black Finish


Topped it off with a pair of TPS rings, as beefy as Badger's but almost half the price, and a Leupy 8.5-25X50 LRT.

Initial groups from the 30 rounds I've fired have been one hole at 50 yards. I'm hoping I'll be able to get back out to the rifle range one of these days, but between getting married, moving across the country, buying a house and my work schedule my shooting time has been almost nill for the last year.

Nice weapon CB Killer!

Yeah that was what I was looking at except the one I was looking at had the Cooley supressor/brake and had the barrel with the heat sink (fins). I prefer the ultralight. I went by the shop today to see what the build time was and the sales guy muddied the waters by getting me involved with another patron in a discussion about M1A's. Now I am really undecided. I looked at a National Match M1A. Nice! I dont know, .308 does have more knock down power and will reach out and touch someone (500yrds+). I dont know that my skills will do the JP justice and the previous post does bring up a good point about cleaning and tight tolerances. I dont want a close combat battle rifle but I do want something that is decent close up for varmints, deer, etc but also something that I can target shoot 200-300 yrds.  Any thoughts? I do not plan on competition type shooting but nor do I want to be embarrassed at the range.

I love my JP. I have a few diff Ar's. but the JP is great. I love the fit and finish. Never had one propblem out of it since I bought it in 99.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e138/M4Operator/00230003.jpg

I don't think you can go wrong with any JP product. I've been eyeballing one of their AR-10's for few weeks now to deer hunt with.

You can give JP a call and they will be more than happy to discuss your options and make some suggestions for what you should get.

How do you guys like the VTAC handguards? Those are the neatest ff tubes/rail I've seen, if they're good stuff. I assume they are. I'm thinking about using one for my AR build.

I bought a V-Tac hand guard & I'm installing it on my first AR build. What I found is the outer receiver nut seems to have quite a bit of clearence in the threads when threaded to my AMEETEC upper receiver. This nut is intended to be loctited to the receiver with 271 (red) loctite, so once it's on it isn't meant to be removed again. I found that to index the gas tube hole in the receiver nut to the upper receiver I had to back the receiver nut off 3/4 turn from tight leaving a gap betwent the nut & receiver, I don't like that gap. I'm planning on removing material from the receiver side of the nut so when it is tight the nut indexs with the gas tube hole in the receiver & has not gap. To fill the slop in the threads I will use Loctite 620 instead if 271, it's meant to be used to fill large gaps like the one causing the slop in the threads. Otherwise the V-Tac FF tube seems to be very well made & customizable with plenty of ventalation. I'm not a fan of 4 rail hand guards. I'm too old & fat to be HSLD. Good luck with whatever you choose.

Quoted: Quoted: 03, it all depends on what you want to use your gun for. Home defense 3 gun, or other competitive (precision) shooting Plinking Duty-rifle, etc Once you determine that, the choices become better focused JP products are among the best for the precision shooter, but impractical and over-blown for plinker's/Home defense, and even duty rifle applications My suggestions would be: Home defense: an M4 style due to size, customization (weapon-light, stock, etc), vesatility Competition, precision shooter, 3-gun- JP, Wilson, others Plinker's- Bushmaster, RRA, Armalite - a dozen others in even more configurations Duty rifle/carbine: Colt LE series. for an all around gun: Colt LE series, as it does all the above, save the long range precision application. Read up on the forums here, and you will find a wealth of information that will help you find the best value for your 2K. After all that is a fair amount of money to invest in anything, and worth the time researching options Welcome to the site!! I would agree with the general sentiment of these comments.   The JP will have much tighter tolerances, which equate to frustration in dirty environments or lots of shooting between cleanings.  You will probably also lose the advantage of parts interchangability. The precision comes from being tight, and a little bit of gunk is going to hose the works.  There is a good reason that military gear is not overly toleranced. Many of the great shooting SPR's that guys on this forum are building are still based around Mil-Std parts.  If you can accomplish the feat, then you get the best of both worlds.  That will be the goal for my current build. 5Shot ETA - Hell!!! I  missed my celebration for #223 (a while ago at that) - guess I have to wait for 556

Not exactly true.  While the tolerances are tighter than production rifles (i.e. Colt, RRA, Bushmaster, et. al.) the # 1 requirement of a rifle in 3-Gun competition is reliability.  A 3-Gun rifle doesn't need to shoot sub-MOA.  The reality is that you can have a rifle that shoots 1-2 MOA and be fine in competition.  The accuracy just gives you a cushion.  However, it doesn't matter how accurate your rifle is if it doesn't run.  JP's run!  Does that mean you don't clean during the day?  Of course you do...heck we do that when we're on patrol, why not in competition.  I'm the worst at weapons maintenance.  I routinely go 2k rounds on my pistols before cleaning and about 500-1k on the rifles.  However, while I'm on the range at a match, I'll throw a Bore Snake after each rifle stage and wipe down the bolt, carrier and inside of the receiver (like you have something better to do between stages).

As for duty/tactical rifles being the exclusive lanes of the big manufacturers (Colt, et. al.), that's crap.  As stated above for competition rifles, guess what the #1 criteria for a well built duty/tactical rifle is?  Yep....reliability.  It's gotta go bang, every time you pull the trigger.  So, guess what...if I could carry my JP at work I would.  It's more reliable, more accurate and just flat out runs better than my M-4.  Fortunately/Unfortunately, I have to live with my M-4.  Luckily my armorer lets me take off the excess crap (VFG's for starters) or else I'd go crazy and there's more than a few file/sandpaper/Dremel marks on my rifle.  Too, using an AR for home defense is about the last thing that I would do.  As I live in the 'burbs (pre-Army) I had this problem with potentially shooting through the bad guy, out the house and into the neighbor's.  Remington 870 with bird shot is in my opinion much more effective and less likely to piss off the neighbors (~12" disc of # 7.5-8 lead at lengths of engagement in a house vs. a .25-.45" bullet).  Just my philosophy.

As for a 4-6 week lead time, I'd say that's them being safe, in case you order anything off the wall.  Thankfully most folks kind of all want the same thing without anything being too weird.  The only tough decision for me was whether to go with the CTR-02 upper receiver or the regular JP-15.  Once I resolved that 99.9% of my shooting would be using an ACOG, then the decision was simple.  The rifle pictured is not my CTR-02.  It's a Colt Match Target H-Bar that I've owned since '95 and have completely re-done.  The only thing left on that rifle that's original is the lower, the LPK (except anything to do with the trigger/hammer) and the stock (which is now buried in some dump).

Since you're in Louisiana, check out Clark Custom Guns (Princeton, LA just outside of Shreveport/Bossier City).  I love JP, but the guys at Clark build a pretty sweet blaster and Jim, Jr.'s and his brother-in-law's (Jerry Miculek) credentials are pretty solid too (his Dad's are pretty well untouchable) .  The Miculek brake is VERY effective too.

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK

I have a bushy v-match 16" that will shoot 1/4"moa all day long off the bench , but you will need to hand load to get that kind of grouping, however i am using a JP trigger group.

My only experience with them is the lefty safety that I have.  It's real nice though, for those of you who are south paws like me.  The standard safety is really annoying to my hand when I'm shooting.  They're the only company I know of that offers a dedicated lefty safety.

Quoted: Quoted: The JP will have much tighter tolerances, which equate to frustration in dirty environments or lots of shooting between cleanings.  You will probably also lose the advantage of parts interchangability. The precision comes from being tight, and a little bit of gunk is going to hose the works.  There is a good reason that military gear is not overly toleranced. Many of the great shooting SPR's that guys on this forum are building are still based around Mil-Std parts.  If you can accomplish the feat, then you get the best of both worlds.  That will be the goal for my current build. 5Shot ETA - Hell!!! I  missed my celebration for #223 (a while ago at that) - guess I have to wait for 556 Not exactly true.  While the tolerances are tighter than production rifles (i.e. Colt, RRA, Bushmaster, et. al.) the # 1 requirement of a rifle in 3-Gun competition is reliability. .....JP's run!   As for duty/tactical rifles being the exclusive lanes of the big manufacturers (Colt, et. al.), that's crap.  As stated above for competition rifles, guess what the #1 criteria for a well built duty/tactical rifle is?  Yep....reliability.  It's gotta go bang, every time you pull the trigger.  So, guess what...if I could carry my JP at work I would.  It's more reliable, more accurate and just flat out runs better than my M-4....   SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic 249th MP Detachment (EACF) Camp Humphreys, ROK

Do 3-gun competitiors typically use factory ammo or do they relaod?  If the latter, due they run full pressure loads or are they downloaded?  Reason I ask is conventional wisdom around here is to add weight to carriers, use heavy buffers, etc. to ensure reliability, but I see JP is 180 out from all that.  Theys ell lighter buffers, lightweight carriers, etc.  I'm just wondering how all those run with factory ammunition.

Also, do you know if they drill the ports on their barrels to std specs or are they drilled smaller?

Where to begin...I'll just go in order.

3-Gun competitors I'd say are about 70/30 on handloaded vs. factory ammo.  The reason is simply cost.  With the volume of shooting that we do, the ONLY way to do it affordably is to load the ammo yourself.  Brass is cheap, bullets in bulk are cheap (even 69gr. SMK's) and Varget by 8# kegs is cheap.  Since I load WSR primers in my pistols, and buy primers in lots of 20k anyways, their cost is practically nothing.  The ammo is NOT downloaded.  Like in other rifle competitions the more velocity you can get out of your ammo, usually (I know not always) yields more accuracy, especially down range, all things being equal and performing like it should (i.e. bullet stabilization, barrel harmonics, etc.).  So, for me, I played with a ton of bullet and powder combinations before settling on what happened to be what's listed in the Sierra Manual as its most accurate load for .223 out of an AR.  Color me pissed off when those numbers came back.  

As for increasing reliability by adding weight, that really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.  By adding weight to the carrier and using heavier buffers, all you're doing is using more inertia to overcome the bolt/carrier movement and retard the impulse.  The issue I see here is that by having to overcome more inertia, it's probably making the felt recoil less, but MAY be increasing muzzle rise.  The reason we tend to run lightened bolt carriers, bolts and have tuned gas systems is to actually speed up the cycle rate.  By decreasing the inertial force the gas impulse can then complete the cycling stroke much more quickly.  This in turn reduces muzzle flip and allows for faster target re-acquisition and firing.

It's like how a rifle gas system is "more" reliable than a carbine gas system.  While mathematically, by doing X to the carbine system, the energy is Y for both.  However, the rifle systems are just more inherently reliable because the gas impulse is just done more smoothly and there's time for everything to happen.  This "time" is shown by the weight that y'all add.  We do the same thing except run shorter barrels with rifle gas systems and/or carbine gas systems and adjustable gas blocks.

And as for reliability, the reliability of an AR lies in two places.  First its the mags and second its the gas system.  Get those working and you've got it.  Mags will always be the weak link in the AR platform, so if you got mags that work, fight for them!  As for the gas system, the big gain that JP started was having the adjustable gas block.  This allows you to advance or retard (like your car) the gas system based upon your load, optimizing its impulse energy and thus increasing reliability.  For instance, if you're running a hot load, you can open up the gas system to bleed off more gas so that you're not over cycling the rifle and not stripping rounds off the mag.  Too, if you're running a "poofer" load, you can close it down to capture more of the gas and thus cycle the rifle a little quicker.

As for JP's running on factory ammo, I can tell you that mine loves Black Hills and Federal.  However, for the price, I can load as good and still have coin left over.  

As for where they machine the ports in their barrel, my assumption is that location-wise, they are the same.  However size, etc. is different (to one extent or another) with every barrel manufacturer, so you'd have to ask them.

Hope that helps.  FWIW, I'm a big fan of Oly Arms SS barrels.  For the price, the performance is incredible.  I think everything else they make is crap, but their barrels are the heat!

SPC Richard A. White, Senior Medic
249th MP Detachment (EACF)
Camp Humphreys, ROK

I have an older Grade 1 JP Enterprises upper, 24 inch barrel with JP recoil eliminator.


The rifle has been a varmint slaying devining rod for the past 7-8 years I've owned it.   It has also been terribly reliable, only time I've tripped it up is when I've run into problems with Federal commercial ammo(but then my Bushmasters barfed on it as well, not tolerance related at all).


This is a typical group from my rifle at 100 yards when feeding slapped together 40grn Vmax loads, meaning MIXED brass.


I've seen many a 1/4 inch 3 shot group and even 5 shot groups under 1/2 inch.   However I think expecting  1/4MOA accuracy is unrealistic.    Just too many variables for this to be a repeatable "average", statistical sampling is the reason why I went to 10 shot groups because my 3 shot and 5 shot groups hovered from anywhere around 3/8 of an inch to unexplained 3/4s of an inch.    It is a rock solid sub MOA performer, with load development it could likely hold 1/2 inch or less but I don't want to put that much time into varmint ammo.



One thing to consider, back when I bought my rifle there were not NEARLY as many options for putting together accurized AR15s.    DPMS uppers, Bushmaster Vmatch, JP Enterprises were pretty much the only manufacturers of sorts putting out unique custom uppers.     Then the market exploded.


Knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't buy another JP Enterprises upper and would rather buy individual parts and assemble my own upper to my exact liking.

Quoted: For instance, if you're running a hot load, you can open up the gas system to bleed off more gas so that you're not over cycling the rifle and not stripping rounds off the mag.  Too, if you're running a "poofer" load, you can close it down to capture more of the gas and thus cycle the rifle a little quicker.

I'd argue the opposite, maybe you typo'd.

My JP gas block is set so that it will still cycle my lowest pressure load but it won't overly beat the shit out of the buffer/action if I throw a hot load through it.

A hot load isn't going to require you to "open" the gas port more, opening is just going to allow a higher volume of higher pressure gas to reach the gas key as well as blow all over your action.


I also prefer the heavy cycling action so as to hopefully delay the movement of the carrier and unlocking of the bolt so that brass will hopefully not get worked quite as much if I am running a hot load.    My terrible experiences with Federal commercial ammo back around late 1999 early 2000 was what caused me to tune down to a setting that I consider not "over gassed".   Tuned it down trying to avoid the primers that were popping out on me left and right but had absolutely zero luck, American Eagle, Gold Medal, and Fed Custom were doing it to me so I am now the biggest Federal hater you will ever come across for their 223Rem commercial stuff.


I've used my ARs for 3 gun events and I know the "faster cycling" arguments well, in some instances I buy into it but in others I just don't know.    I use my JP gun primarily for long range precision work/varminting, I believe precision minded shooting favors delaying the unlocking/cycling of the action.

Topped it off with a pair of TPS rings, as beefy as Badger's but almost half the price, and a Leupy 8.5-25X50 LRT.

What height rings do you need with the 50 mm. objective?

Would rings one size shorter be better for cheek weld if using a 40 mm. objective?

I'm using high rings, I don't know if you could get away with mediums on a 40mm or not, it would all depend on the manufacturer.

TPS' medium rings are 27.3mm high from the cross-bolt to the center of the ring itself, the high rings are 31.1mm tall for a difference of 3.8mm. I dont' know where my calipers are to measure how much space there is between the top of the rail and the scope.

Rough eyeball it looks like a 40mm and medium rings might work as long as you didn't have a ring on the objective of your scope for objective adjustment.

I looked all over the Leupold website and I can't find anything with ring specs and the mount selector comes up nada for AR's.

I'd give TPS or whomever a call.

I just reworked a buddies a2 20" bushy with jp stuff.

New flattop, gas block, trigger, float tube, and an ace skeleton stock.

This thing is very sweet.

I have JP triggers in ever ar15 I own.

Never a problem.

Great stuff, great customer service.

If the price is not an obstacle, get yourself one and enjoy.

TXL

The JP will have much tighter tolerances, which equate to frustration in dirty environments or lots of shooting between cleanings. You will probably also lose the advantage of parts interchangability. The precision comes from being tight, and a little bit of gunk is going to hose the works. There is a good reason that military gear is not overly toleranced.

As others have said, JP rifles and uppers are probably the most common single mfgr of rifles at any 3Gun match... for good reason.   JP also supports the sport like few others, and has been doing so for ages.

JP has two lines of AR15's:  1. their CTR-02, which is built on their machined from billet matched upper/lowers, and 2. their JP-15, which totally interchangable with all AR15 parts. The only things on the CTR02 which are not interchangable is the bolt carrier, IIRC.

As for reliability.. there are some "race" parts which can affect reliability, namely the adjustable gas system and lightweight bolt carrier, but you are not required to use these parts.   JP has full-mass bolt carriers and you can adjust the gas system to full gas.      When I shot my CTR02 at the 2004 International Tactical Rifleman Championships in WY, it ran flawlessly, but I was using a regulat SS bolt carrier.

All that said, I sold my CTR02 and went to using a standard RRA lower I built up with a MSTN Comp/Tac upper.  It does everything the JP did, with less weight.  YMMV.

I still run JP triggers in almost everything.

-z

Thanks all for the feedback.