If it isn't two live rounds, it isn't a Double Feed

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - If it isn't two live rounds, it isn't a Double Feed

Posted: 4/13/2006 5:51:29 PM EDT

A live and an empty are what I termed some time ago as a Dropped Extraction.

Dopuble Feed historically means the magazine burped two live rounds.

Triple feeds are possible but extremely rare.

Please be specific when describing the nature of your malfunction to assist those offering assistance.

The fix for the former is entirely different than the fix for the latter.

Posted: 4/13/2006 5:59:50 PM EDT

[#1]

Did I miss something that precipitated this post?

I agree completely; an empty and a live round causing a stoppage is completely different from a "double feed," which says quite plainly that TWO LIVE ROUNDS have been fed.

But is there a rash of people calling a failure to eject coupled with a normal stripping of a live round a "double feed?" I haven't seen it.

Posted: 4/13/2006 6:01:43 PM EDT

[#2]

But is there a rash of people calling a failure to eject coupled with a normal stripping of a live round a "double feed?" I haven't seen it.

I have noticed a trend toward this and witnessed it in several threads over the past several months.

Time to nip a little bud.

Posted: 4/13/2006 6:37:21 PM EDT

[#3]

I know what you mean. I have been working at Gunsite for 4 months now and have taken a few courses and most instrucotrs still call what I call a failure to extract, a double feed. So I had to talk with them in private and explain why it is not a double feed...and most still call it a double feed.

I guess old habits die hard.

Posted: 4/13/2006 6:44:31 PM EDT

[#4]

We all need to be on the same sheet of music.

Feed means fed from the magazine as the magazine is the feeding device. An empty is extracted (or not), not fed.

Posted: 4/13/2006 7:07:23 PM EDT

[#5]

Hadn't thought of that...Makes sense. Your note did make me go back and check one of my recent posts. While I didn't mix the two, and admittedly it's the first I've heard the term "dropped extraction", it shall be noted.

"Dropped extraction" is the most definitive term I've heard. Hell, it's self explanatory. IIRC I've tried to explain a dropped extraction in the past, on more than one occasion, and damn near ended up trying to put it in sign language & chalk to relay what I was describing. "Dropped extraction" will be in my glossary for sure. Thanks for the clarification HM as I'm sure I probably erroneously applied the term doublefeed to a dropped extraction in the past.

Yes, I'm repetitively saying & typing "dropped extraction" so it'll take hold somewhere in the brain bucket.

Sly

Posted: 4/13/2006 7:36:28 PM EDT

[#6]

Just out of curiosity, what's the primary cause for a dropped extraction? Poor extractor spring tension? Chipped/worn extractor? An "over-gassed" system? Too little carrier/buffer weight? Worn buffer spring?

Same question, but for a double feed -- bad mag feed lips? Worn mag spring? i.e., corrective action would be to change out mag.

I'm trying to get all this down so the next time I encounter this I can diagnose and try various corrective actions versus continuing to experience the problem and not being able to diag it before returning home and posting questions to you smart guys, and then waiting for my next range trip to fix it.

Posted: 4/13/2006 8:17:30 PM EDT

[#7]

And you are qualified as the grand poobah of weapons malfunction terminology because..........?

Chewbaca, you HAD to talk to gunsite INSTRUCTORS in private to explain YOUR terminology?( That you got from some other guy on the internet who made the term up himself cause he dubbed himself the malfunction naming master.) And you have been working there for 4 months, versus their how many years instructing? And what is your capacity at gunsite? LOL, I cant wait for the post that your gonna make talking about how you got fired from gunsite for being a know it all smartass who was going around "correcting" the senior cadre. They are probably useing the term double feed in your presence just as a way to say " Suck my D***, cherry!!!"

What does it is matter what a malfunction is named. I could give a damn if its called a Doomaflachie Joy. If an instructor can show me how to ID it and correct it, then im good to go. I swear, some of you guys crack me up. Time to nip some bud indeed. Oh, BTW,

DOUBLEFEED !!

Posted: 4/13/2006 8:19:41 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Same question, but for a double feed -- bad mag feed lips? Worn mag spring? i.e., corrective action would be to change out mag.

double feeds are ALWAYS the result of a bad magazine (feed lips worn/spread too much/ or too small).

Corrective action is to remove magazine from rifle. Stomp on magazine with heel of boot. Buy a new magazine.

Posted: 4/13/2006 9:05:18 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
And you are qualified as the grand poobah of weapons malfunction terminology because..........?

Chewbaca, you HAD to talk to gunsite INSTRUCTORS in private to explain YOUR terminology?( That you got from some other guy on the internet who made the term up himself cause he dubbed himself the malfunction naming master.) And you have been working there for 4 months, versus their how many years instructing? And what is your capacity at gunsite? LOL, I cant wait for the post that your gonna make talking about how you got fired from gunsite for being a know it all smartass who was going around "correcting" the senior cadre. They are probably useing the term double feed in your presence just as a way to say " Suck my D***, cherry!!!"

What does it is matter what a malfunction is named. I could give a damn if its called a Doomaflachie Joy. If an instructor can show me how to ID it and correct it, then im good to go. I swear, some of you guys crack me up. Time to nip some bud indeed. Oh, BTW,

DOUBLEFEED !!

The importance of using proper terminology is that neither I, nor your instructor, can show you a damn thing on the net without multiple detailed photos. Speaking in correct & universally understandable terms helps the community here. Then again if in your case it's monkey see, monkey do- speaking understandably or receiving universally understood instructions may just be beyond your abilities.

Sly

Posted: 4/13/2006 10:49:09 PM EDT

[#10]

Well, I guess fortunately for me, I already have a fairly well rounded knowledge base to rely on. And your absolutly right I believe in monkey see, monkey do, as well as repetition. As far as my abilities to receive and understand instruction, well, opinions vary. But, I can tell you this, I would rather have real world monkey see monkey do and hands on real world training, then getting my experience and training from a message board on the internet. And before you come up with another clever reply, yes, I have more than enough real world training and "practical application" of said training to back up what I say. But I, unlike others, do not feel the need to go spreading my credentials all over an internet message board just to be an online hero so others can stroke my ego. Ill drop out of this discussion now and continue to lurk and chuckle at the keyboard commandos.

DOUBLEFEED

Posted: 4/14/2006 1:30:08 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Well, I guess fortunately for me, I already have a fairly well rounded knowledge base to rely on.

Yeah? Well then, stop lurking and start contributing! Plenty of total newbies on this site that you can help out single handedly. Hell, you will have it easy, since apparently you have some magical ability to know that when someone talks about bananas, he is actually talking about coconuts.

You know, why don't we all start calling things what ever we like? It will make communicating with people SO much more interesting.

Posted: 4/14/2006 8:17:28 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Same question, but for a double feed -- bad mag feed lips? Worn mag spring? i.e., corrective action would be to change out mag.

double feeds are ALWAYS the result of a bad magazine (feed lips worn/spread too much/ or too small).

Corrective action is to remove magazine from rifle. Stomp on magazine with heel of boot. Buy a new magazine.

ALMOST always the magazine. Overfunction and a defective buffer (essentially replicating overfunction) can cause it but it is rare.

95+ percent of the time, it is the mag.

And Forest, I have salvaged magazines with that condition but they were forever branded with an f by a sharpie. One 20 I used as a nice short bench mag did this and I was able to revive it. Still, it will never be considered a 'go to' mag.

If they were merely bent or malformed, sometimes you can carefully coax them back. Worn? Strip and stomp.

Posted: 4/14/2006 8:19:44 AM EDT

[#13]

Just out of curiosity, what's the primary cause for a dropped extraction? Poor extractor spring tension? Chipped/worn extractor? An "over-gassed" system? Too little carrier/buffer weight? Worn buffer spring?

In this order, I would say:

Insufficinet spring tension, defective extractor claw and a malformed chamber would be the top three causes with the first two consituting the overwhelming majority.

Posted: 4/14/2006 8:22:04 AM EDT

[#14]

What does it is matter what a malfunction is named.?

Because it is confusing as hell to call two unrelated malfunctions by the same name.

Should we call heart attack heart burn because they superficially appear the same at first glance?

Posted: 4/14/2006 8:29:58 AM EDT

[#15]

You guys wanted an example of incorrect application of terminology? From another thread:

4. Colt 6920. Close to 5,000 rounds now. All issues are either ammo or magazine related. All but one failure occurred in a class because of either operator error (not seating the magazine the whole way) or from one case of Wolf stuck in the chamber causing a double feed. Otherwise this thing is 100%. Had one round of Black Hills where the case separated but it was no biggie.

Posted: 4/14/2006 8:58:04 AM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
ALMOST always the magazine. Overfunction and a defective buffer (essentially replicating overfunction) can cause it but it is rare.

I've never seen that. Heck it's not even mentioned in -23. I'd imagine there would have to be some bounce of the bolt carrier as a good magazine will only physically present 1 round to strip per cycle of the bolt.

~~95+~~99.9% percent of the time, it is the mag.

Fixed it for ya.

.. I have salvaged magazines with that condition but they were forever branded with an f by a sharpie.

Most people don't mark/number their magazines. IF they do then repair or salvage may be in order. For most people they are better off stomping on the magazine and replacing it with a brand-new $10 one.

Posted: 4/14/2006 9:21:33 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
ALMOST always the magazine. Overfunction and a defective buffer (essentially replicating overfunction) can cause it but it is rare.

I've never seen that. Heck it's not even mentioned in -23. I'd imagine there would have to be some bounce of the bolt carrier as a good magazine will only physically present 1 round to strip per cycle of the bolt.

~~95+~~99.9% percent of the time, it is the mag.

Fixed it for ya.

Tweak used to discuss it. I have seen it on two different guns before.

One was the buffer, the other was way overgassed.

Posted: 4/14/2006 10:49:54 AM EDT

[#18]

I can almost see over gassed - if the bolt carrier hits the back hard enough maybe the magazine lips flex from the shock and cause a double feed?

Did Tweak mention this in a thread or person exchange? I'd enjoy reading the thread and seeing the comments on it.