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Posted: 3/23/2006 11:07:57 PM EDT
[#1]
The forward assist is for sending the bolt home when it doesn't do it on its own. You should rarely have to use this. It's just kind of an emergency mechanism to avoid or quickly clear jams. Say you ride the charding handle forward and it doesn't completely chamber a round. Tap the forward assist and the bolt should slap forward. To function check it, with your left hand, pull the charging handle back 3-4inches, and while holding it in that position, push the forward assist with your right thumb. You should feel tension on the handle as the forward assist is trying to pull the bolt carrier forward. That's what all the little ridges along the bolt carrier are for. It's a really simple piece really :) As far as ammo, there's alot of places, just check the ammo forums. Cheaperthandirt.com Ammunitionstore.com ammoman.com Etc... |
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Posted: 3/23/2006 11:11:54 PM EDT
[#2]
oooh... ok. That makes more sence. Some bonehead at the gun stoe told me those little noches in the bolt were 'sand grooves'
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Posted: 3/23/2006 11:16:59 PM EDT
[#3]
 What in the hell is a sand groove?And another thing, slapping your buttstock on the ground or hitting it really hard with your hand (not recommended  ) should serve the same purpose as the forward assist.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 3:17:48 AM EDT
[#4]
Back in the "cave days" some operators were taught to drain the water from their barrels after immersion by pulling the charging handle back slightly to break the vacumn and allow the water to drain. The forward assist then allows insuring the bolt is closed quietly and securely locked. I'm not sure about any training documentation, as "word of mouth" from those who had "been there, done that" was my source during the mid-70's.
Paladin |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 3:23:45 AM EDT
[#5]
What? hitting the stock on the ground sends the carrier in the opposite direction of the f/a... |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 4:34:00 AM EDT
[#6]
A sand groove is one of the diagonal cuts the Brits had to put onto the bolt carrier of their "wonderful" POS L1A1s (FN FAL), to keep them from malfunctioning in sandy environments. Just one more reason why the USA didn't adopt the durn thing. (And now all you FN FAL lovers can chime in w/how great a rifle it is  )
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Posted: 3/24/2006 4:41:35 AM EDT
[#7]
The forward assist is useless weight and an unneccessary complication and protrusion. It serves only to catch on brush and clothing, and occassionally to force rounds into a chamber to jam your rifle. If you need to ease your bolt closed for some reason, there's a cut-out on the bolt carrier so you can push it forward with your thumb.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:09:27 AM EDT
[#8]
I think the forward assist just looks cool.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 5:18:10 AM EDT
[#9]
Better to have and not need then to need and not have...
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Posted: 3/24/2006 6:58:51 AM EDT
[#10]
The cutout on the carrier is actually what allows the dust cover to close, and forces it to open. Without the dust cover, there is no need for the groove.
The forward assist is especially useful if you need to press check prior to movement, or a stage, or any other time. Sure, if you start with a full mag you can check the top round for which side its on, but the other way is easier. If you're low crawling, it may get snagged on something (like, a sniper stalk low crawl,) but it's angled a helluva lot better than than the stock sling loop on the buttstock. The forward assist is a very necessary option for any AR type rifle being used in combat. Dirty chambers prevent bullets from seating and, even if you have to fire, hit the assist, then fire again, it is certainly better than not firing at all. Don't believe me? Go clear a trench with an AR. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 8:04:53 AM EDT
[#11]
People who say the FA is worthless haven't been in combat. Sometimes the simple fact is that you have to ride the bolt forward, or you have to load on a dirty chamber, and that is that. "But the designer didn't mean for it to be there in the first place!" people cry. Well, there is a reason it was added. "It snags on clothing!" If you manage to seriously snag the FA you have some problems with the way you are dressing for a social situation.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 9:21:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Don't use it when you load, don't use it for regular malfunctions. Use it ONLY to get a round into the chamber when the carrier is gummed up with carbon and sand.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 9:24:18 AM EDT
[#13]
I really hate this response:
\
So does your rifle have a gas-powered ice auger fitted in the buttstock? After all, "better to have and not need than to need and not have..." To me, if I am adding cost, weight and complication to the system then there had damn sure better be some reasonable expectation of a payoff. And no, it was not added for a reason, unless you can count some total speculative scare-mongering as a reason. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 9:31:51 AM EDT
[#14]
First off, the FA does not add much cost, weight, or complexity (which is the word I believe you were looking for) to the system. Second, how's this for "speculative scare-mongering"? About two months ago I was in a counter-sniper overwatch during one of the worst sandstorms I've seen during this, my second tour in Iraq. A truck stopped in my sector, and an insurgent mortar team began to dismount. I shot the first man with my M16A4 DMR, but the second round failed to load due to the storm conditions. What did I do? I performed SPORTS, and it was the FA that positively chambered the round, allowing me to elimate the second mortarman (my partner took care of the third). Yes, the FA probably doesn't do much for you at the range. But I was glad to have it in real combat, and that's what counts. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 9:37:26 AM EDT
[#15]
Thank you, I was looking for the perfect example of a straw man arguement and you provided it. In other words, instead of answering the real question, you present a false analogy, disprove that, and then act as if you've disproved the original arguement. You'd make a fine liberal, that's their main means of winning debates. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 9:44:01 AM EDT
[#16]
First and foremost:
Phoebus- thank you for your service to our country. Keep safe and come home soon. Now in response to this issue. The Foward Assist is definately a needed item. While I have never been in a real-world combat engagement I have had to use the FA a number of times in live fire exercises. In regards to the arguement that it wasn't part of the original so it isn't needed I have to say this is a flawed arguement at best. Can you please name one military item that has been around a while and still unmodified from it's original form? I can't. A FA is a requirement for me. CSP US Army 92-98 |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 10:11:43 AM EDT
[#17]
In eighteen years of shooting ARs I have never used my foward assist until last week. Now it wasn't anything like Phoebus' experience but it was just a range experience. Some brand spanking new mags that I was using wouldn't allow the rounds to fully chamber. I had to hit the FA after every shot to finish seating the round.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 10:58:33 AM EDT
[#18]
I've had my AR for a few months. I'm lazy enough to hardly clean it, and I used it three times, last shooting.
Then you clean it.. and, you'd be suprised that YOU DON'T NEED IT!  I think, most of the time you need it, it's because it's not cleaned properly. Just speaking from bad experience. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 11:03:35 AM EDT
[#19]
bought my Very First Bushmaster about 6 years ago! Ive shot lots of rounds since then and never ever had to use the Forward assit!
and to think I was scared to buy a bushmaster back then? |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 11:53:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Not sure I've tried that.  |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:43:32 PM EDT
[#22]
I had always heard that the FA was in case of a badly bent bullet, or comething causing the bullet to not fit very well IE: combat situations. You can get that damned round in there and fire it!
 I use mine with new mags as well.. . its sometimes quieter when I'm coyote hunting . . . . . and well it gives us something to be obsessive/compulsive about. 
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:53:52 PM EDT
[#23]
If the bullet is bent badly enough to not go in the chamber, it may be damaged enough not to come out if I fire it. I would eject it and load another round. Hardly a difference in the time that takes.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 12:56:44 PM EDT
[#24]
I forgot the man's name, but the poor guy who tried to save Jessica Lynch's lying ass had to use his forward assist after every shot. As I understand it, none of those firearms were in proper functioning conditions. What I can say for certain is that if I ever need to REPEATEDLY use my forward assist, I'm selling my AR.
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:11:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Yep have used it on the ranges before. Not on ARs but on military weapons. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:15:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Amen brother... |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 1:24:29 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:12:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Funny how people say a feature on an item is useless when they use the item under ideal conditions and are anal about maint.
Use the rifle for what it was really designed for in real world situations (combat in all conditions, limited time/supplies/place to maintain) and attitudes change. God forbid you need your rifle in a long term SHTF situation, the FA might just come in handy. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 2:15:20 PM EDT
[#29]
"oftener"?
Guys, if you think it isn't a necessary piece, fine. When I ordered the rifles for our training center, they all had to have forward assists on them as it is part of the rifle that is extremely crucial to a person who is staking their life on every shot fired. If you have never dirtied up a weapon and had to use it again before you had the opportunity to clean it, because you met up with another person who was in desperate need of killing, you may not fully appreciate the forward assist. Other than that, I suppose it isn't an important piece of the rifle designed to overcome environment and battlefield use. That chick in the PM magazine has always been hot. Never seems to age though. |
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Posted: 3/24/2006 3:01:05 PM EDT
[#30]
I had to use one time, got excited to finally press the FA. I could definitely see it come to good use in a combat situation. I take my cleaning conditions for granted I guess.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 5:10:31 AM EDT
[#31]
Can you describe your DMR setup? Is this the setup rebuilt by the AMU for the 3rd ID? BTW I've used the FA occaisionaly over the years for FtF. I find it useful to verify that the bolt is locked after checking to see if there is a round in the chamber or not. I never had one snag on anything, not even the A1 teardrop type. OTOH, maybe the FA snagging on gear/straps is a problem only for lefties? |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 5:30:26 AM EDT
[#32]
In my limited experience with ARs, often as not when used the forward assist I wished that I had tried another round instead.
It is handy after taking a peek to see if the chamber is occupied or trying to chamber a round quietly so as not to scare the groundhogs. Regards, Mild Bill |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 5:49:56 AM EDT
[#33]
Yup, the 3rd ID version AFAIK. It came to me when we were attached to the 3rd. DD rails, KAC (I believe) 2-stage trigger. I replaced the stock because the A2 is WAY too long for me while wearing armor (heck, I'm only 5'7", it's to long for me without armor!).  The supply sgt gave me a big bag of 77gr BH SMKs (I believe they are Mk262s) that I'm not sure where he got. I believe they were probably handed to him after being downloaded from the mags of a DM leaving country. I wasn't orginally slated to get the rifle or the ammo, but somehow voodoo was cast and strings were pulled. For a while (6-7 weeks) I actually had an M14/M21. Now that was cool.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 6:05:11 AM EDT
[#34]
I seem to recall a convoy ambush in Iraq, same one that Jessica Lynch was in I believe, where one of the soldiers returned fire with his M16 using the foward assist... Fire, hit forward assist, fire, etc. Could be wrong, but yeah.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 6:28:54 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 3/25/2006 6:32:41 AM EDT
[#36]
From what I have read on this subject, the Army demanded that the forward assist be added on the simple theory that you could push the bolt shut manually on a M1 Garand or M14, therefore you should be able to do so on a M16. It was not in response to any kind of experience in the field. Furthermore, the US Air Force didn't want it, the US Marines didn't want it, Colt didn't want it, and Eugene Stoner didn't want it. The Army wanted it, so we all got it.
Weight, cost and added complexity are all minor objections to the forward assist. The main objection is simply that using it can jam up the gun, turning a minor malfunction into a serious one. Flip a coin. . . It might get your rifle working, or it might turn it into a club. If the bolt doesn't fully close on your AR-15, you can stick your thumb in the ejection port and try to nudge it on closed. If that doesn't work, you pull the charging handle and clear the round, and try the next one. I wouldn't use the FA except as a last resort, if everything else didn't work and I had nothing to lose. |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 6:36:42 AM EDT
[#37]
For range shooting you really don’t need them. If the rifle gets gummed up enough to stop the bolt from closing all the way it’s probably better to stop and inspect the problem. Forcing a round into the chamber could cause some serious problems. I’m sure it’s different in combat. Sand and dirt everywhere. No time to perform proper maintenance. So, thanks to guys like you, I don’t really need a forward assist on my rifle. Thank You, and please stay safe. (And this goes to everyone else that’s putting their ass on the line to make my AR-15 nothing but a range gun.) |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 7:07:10 AM EDT
[#38]
As a genuine decades long veteran Armchair Commando, let me put my $.02 worth (If that much) in.
My feeling is that in MOST cases, if a cartridge does not want to chamber, it might be a bad idea to try to force it in. Better to extract the offending round and try again. (MOST cases do NOT include ALL cases in combat) Hammering a reluctant round home just might make it want to take up permanent residence in the chamber. Bad Ju-Ju. Useful purposes for a forward assist, would include the aforementioned "press-checking;" unseating to drain water from a barrel after immersion (As per the old comic books); quietly seating a round; or finally, on the two way range IF that is the only way to stay alive until remedial action can be taken. I do wonder at those who espouse "closing the bolt with a thumb on the cutout for the dustcover latch." I'd like to SEE (NOT participate in) a demonstration of that method, after firing, oh say... 30 rounds or so, rapid fire. I do believe THAT would leave mark.  Lonny |
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Posted: 3/25/2006 7:15:33 AM EDT
[#39]
I dont think the FA is so much for jamming a stuck round in chamber but more to help along the bolt when it has become grimmy and gummed up. Once the fouling in the BCG or dirt in the buffer tube gets to a certain level the bolt seems to close with less force causing the bolt to not seat preoperly. At a range this is just a minor inconvenience but in combat it could kill you.
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Posted: 3/25/2006 10:13:40 AM EDT
[#40]
Cool. Sorry for the hijack but I think this is the first actual user report that I've read about the US Army What kind of scope do you use? Did you have to zero it differently for the 77gn ammo? Is it heavier than the standard A4s? How do you compare it in this role vs the M14? Can you say at what range you took out the targets? The IDF started using an M855/M16A2 based DMR around 1997 and have been very satisfied with the results. This is a standard A2 (E3 version with full-auto) with bipods attached to the hanguards. Scope is 4xACOG and 4xAquila for night. This is what I use in the reserves.  No FF accurized SS barrel but it seems to be good enough. I tried firing it once with a lower that had a collapsable stock (so that I could zero the iron sights which is impossible with the high cheeckrest) but didn't like the feel-too flimsy. The fixed A2 stock feels more solid and the length not a problem for me ( I'm 6'0''). I think that a flattop A4 would be definitely better. The regular units (18-21 yr olds) today are using a similar DMR setup based on standard M4s, which is considered much more popular. Stay safe-I hear the Mid East can be a rough neighborhood
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Posted: 3/25/2006 11:03:33 PM EDT
[#41]
I believe his name is Patrick Miller. www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/11/06/60minutes/main582354.shtml I'm sure that he would be for keeping the FA |
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Posted: 3/26/2006 6:25:19 AM EDT
[#42]
First, sorry for continued hijack. Second, the IDF rocks  Nice pic of your set up. I'm with you on stock solidity and my A1 stock is working about well for that for me, although I've considered getting a sully stock. At this point, however, I am leaving the ME in just a little while so there's not a lot of point in making changesI'm not sure about weight vs. the standard A4, because I've only carried A2s and M4s. I was originally issued an ACOG with the .308 bullet drop compensator reticle to align more closely with the trajectory of the 77gr rounds. I am a big IOR fan, however, so I rotate through using several personal IOR scopes on it (3x25, 1.1-4x, and 4x24 M2). I use the M2 if I am firing M855 since it has a BDC cam set up for that load. This particular incident that I talked about above was at about 250m. I've had combat engagements with this rifle from room distance out to about 375m and it has performed very well. The M14 was a novelty, but the support just wasn't there (I had limited experience with the rifle, and most people had none, so it would not be an ideal situation to have to pass it off to someone else in a pinch). I love 7.62, but the heavy .223 like the 77gr rounds allows for decent terminal ballistics in a lighter and more universal package. |
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Posted: 3/27/2006 12:32:32 AM EDT
[#43]
Phoebus, Impressive shooting. Was the 250m engagement done with the ACOG & 77 gn ammo? I’m not familiar with the other scopes, but we find that having at least one DM with Aquila/ACOG/M16 system per squad doubles the effectiveness of a patrol in its ability to identify and engage threats, while still durable and simple enough to allow the DM to perform like a regular infantryman at close ranges. A DM has become a must-have in almost every mission. I am told that the majority of hits in the current Intifada are credited to DMs. Judging from just all the threads on building SPR/SDM/SAM etc. clones in this forum, I am sure that many readers on AR15.com would be very interested in your experiences with the SDM-R. Might I have the “chutzpah” to suggest you open a thread (with pics?!) on this topic? I’d like to take this opportunity to say that I really appreciate how difficult it must be for you and your fellow US servicemen to operate so far from home and in such dangerous places as Iraq and Afghanistan. For the IDF things are much simpler since home is just over your shoulder and the local terrorists are much more limited in capabilities, and still people bitch all the time about having to serve. I hope that your efforts help democracy and tolerance get a foothold in the Mid East-although judging from the region's history, I’m not too optimistic.  Remember: your #1 mission is for you and your friends to come home safely! |
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Posted: 3/29/2006 1:54:43 AM EDT
[#44]
This is just my take on the subject...
The FA was ment to be used in combat conditions for quick seating of the round in the chamber. In a civillian sence, no it is not needed. Considering your at the shooting range and have the time to open the rifle and see whats up. The Burton SSgt, USAF |
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Posted: 4/3/2006 6:27:08 AM EDT
[#46]
I was taught to use the FS in the service (about a hundred years ago
) so I don't even think about it, it's just second nature. Doubt I could stop using it if I tried.
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