.

Quoted: What I mean by that rather confusing question is this, is Colt turning it's back on the civilian market? From the early large pin receivers, to those stupid modified uppers with no sear relief cut, to the new LE1020 gas piston uppers that they won't sell to civilians, Colt seems to go out of it's way to make life more difficult for the non-military/police customer. I decided a long time ago that I would limit my dealings with HK for just such an attitude, but at least they can make the excuse that they're limited by the import restrictions. Colt faces no such impediment, so why are they going out of there way to be anti-RKBA? My first few AR's were Colt's but the LE1020 situation was the last straw, I have decided that I'm fed up with their shit and will no longer do business with them, am I alone in this sentiment or do some of you guys feel the same way?

Colt has been screwing over the civilians since, well a long time. It all started back when they were bought by some company (I dont know which, they were bought and sold so many times), but I think it was when the Colt Holding Company was formed. I think that is when it all started. A bunch of politician wanna-bes who decided to play nice with the left wings.

But who knows, maybe things will turn around. Look at S&W. Remember when they signed on to that "voluntary' BS that Clinton came up with. Everybody and their brother was boycotting them. Then they were sold, and voila they are back to their old selves again. Heck they are now making ARs!

Quoted: What I mean by that rather confusing question is this, is Colt turning it's back on the civilian market? From the early large pin receivers, to those stupid modified uppers with no sear relief cut, to the new LE1020 gas piston uppers that they won't sell to civilians, Colt seems to go out of it's way to make life more difficult for the non-military/police customer. I decided a long time ago that I would limit my dealings with HK for just such an attitude, but at least they can make the excuse that they're limited by the import restrictions. Colt faces no such impediment, so why are they going out of there way to be anti-RKBA? My first few AR's were Colt's but the LE1020 situation was the last straw, I have decided that I'm fed up with their shit and will no longer do business with them, am I alone in this sentiment or do some of you guys feel the same way?

Do your homework!  Colt will sell these to civilians.  They have the same policy on all of their LE weapons.  They will sell them only to LE dealers, but are not concerned with who they sell them to.  Colt has made this point fairly clear.  If the LE dealer chooses to sell to civilians, Colt doesn't really care and will do nothing to stop it.

By the title of the thread I thought you meant Colt was the new HK in that Colt Carbines have replaced the HK as the CQB weapon of choice around the world.

In regards to odd things like the goofy screw pins, pinned in sear blocks, no sear cuts in the uppers, and offering the LE1020, I have great news for you!  Colt dropped the large screw pin, and the no sear cut uppers in 1993, the pinned in sear block in 1996, and Ken has told some here that he will offer us the LE1020 as soon as available!

Cool huh?

As far as HK goes, sorry but you can't get a Form 6 approved for thier firearms.  

Do your HOMEWORK!!!!!

I hate all other AR makers cause they copy Colt and they have no problem not doing their homework and copying Colt.

Does that sound stupid? Good, it has as much sense as yours does.

I've bought PLENTY of Colt ARs since the ban was over. No problem.

Quoted: Quoted: What I mean by that rather confusing question is this, is Colt turning it's back on the civilian market? From the early large pin receivers, to those stupid modified uppers with no sear relief cut, to the new LE1020 gas piston uppers that they won't sell to civilians, Colt seems to go out of it's way to make life more difficult for the non-military/police customer. I decided a long time ago that I would limit my dealings with HK for just such an attitude, but at least they can make the excuse that they're limited by the import restrictions. Colt faces no such impediment, so why are they going out of there way to be anti-RKBA? My first few AR's were Colt's but the LE1020 situation was the last straw, I have decided that I'm fed up with their shit and will no longer do business with them, am I alone in this sentiment or do some of you guys feel the same way? Do your homework!  Colt will sell these to civilians.  They have the same policy on all of their LE weapons.  They will sell them only to LE dealers, but are not concerned with who they sell them to.  Colt has made this point fairly clear.  If the LE dealer chooses to sell to civilians, Colt doesn't really care and will do nothing to stop it.

Exactly

That is a bunch of propaganda that has long since proven false.

I have a rack full of LE Colt firearms, and not one "goofy screw pin"', sear block, sear-cut, or anything else bastardizing its use- as do plenty of others

And I am on a list to get the 1020 along with probably thousands more enthusiasts.

This unsubstantiated bashing of Colt Firearms was old a long time ago

If you do not like them for what they HAD to do during the late 80's early 90's........thats fine. I understand it.

But realize Colt was facing extinction after 150 years because of lawsuit-happy municipalities that felt suing Colt was justification for something some idiot undeserving the use of a gun- did.

Don't blame Colt- blame your court system.

And remember had Colt not made some gesture of compromise with the AR15 (screws, pins sizes bayo-lugs, etc). there would be no AR15 at all today- (or Colt) and it would be a military only weapon (made by FN)

(walked right into this one didn't you, Panzer? [])

Why do guys post this crap over and over? Do any of you actually read the past threads?

Hell, several Colt dealers are already taking orders for the LE1020. Now try to name a semi-auto Colt AR that any ARFCOM member cannot find easily? HK has made several U.S. civilian market only firearms over the past fifteen years, only to have them specifically banned or sell poorly because they were ban compliant.  HK416 sales have been held up for several reasons; Colt lawsuit, HK feet dragging, German export laws, etc. HK is now accepting state & local LEO orders for the HK416 and I'm told civilian sales could be later this year.

Bitching about either company when you don’t bother to read the facts on them is purely moronic.

Colts are a little harder to find due to Military & LEO orders. I see Bushys out the kazoo at the shows. Not many Colts. CDNN advertizes to have them. You have to call for price though.

I guess Bushy has no problem keeping up with their GOV contracts. Cuz they got lots of them at the shows. PILES

Colt the new HK? THEY WISH!

Wow, a thorough thrashing, sorry for stirring the pot.

Quoted: (walked right into this one didn't you, Panzer? [])

I sure did.

Yes.  Colt IS the new HK.  Both are bashed unreasonably by internet commandos who don't know the facts.

Fact: HK is not permitted to import "assault" weapons due to the import ban.
Fact: HK tried to bring weapons to the market that complied with the import ban.  When these weapons didn't sell, HK stopped producing them.
Fact: HK has no restrictions on civilian sales of its Military/LE handguns, and will happily sell you a MK 23 with high standard caps.

Fact: You can get any Colt AR from a number of places, like Knesek guns or Clyde.
Fact: These aren't exactly backroom deals, Colt obviously knows about them and doesn't care.
Fact: A marketing official from Colt posted (several weeks ago) that Colt had NO policy preventing sales to non-LEOs.

Fact: Neither HK nor Colt hate you.  They are just businesses.  Their main clients are police and military, so that's who they're directing sales to.  However, you can get any legal weapon from these companies with little to no effort.  

Quoted: Bitching about either company when you don’t bother to read the facts on them is purely moronic.

Never a truer statement............

Quoted: Quoted: And remember had Colt not made some gesture of compromise with the AR15 (screws, pins sizes bayo-lugs, etc). there would be no AR15 at all today- (or Colt) and it would be a military only weapon (made by FN) I don't think most people understand how close Colt came to going under.

Given the way the AR industry proliferated no thanks to them, it wouldn't have mattered if Colt had disappeared from the face of the Earth.

Colt is one company that continues to amaze me with their mismanagement and utter inability to read the competitive marketplace.  

Quoted: In regards to odd things like the goofy screw pins, pinned in sear blocks, no sear cuts in the uppers, and offering the LE1020, I have great news for you!  Colt dropped the large screw pin, and the no sear cut uppers in 1993, the pinned in sear block in 1996, and Ken has told some here that he will offer us the LE1020 as soon as available! Cool huh?

If anything, Colt is becoming more and more civy friendly.

WIZZO

Quoted: Yes.  Colt IS the new HK.  Both are bashed unreasonably by internet commandos who don't know the facts. Fact: HK is not permitted to import "assault" weapons due to the import ban. Fact: HK tried to bring weapons to the market that complied with the import ban.  When these weapons didn't sell, HK stopped producing them. Fact: HK has no restrictions on civilian sales of its Military/LE handguns, and will happily sell you a MK 23 with high standard caps. Fact: You can get any Colt AR from a number of places, like Knesek guns or Clyde. Fact: These aren't exactly backroom deals, Colt obviously knows about them and doesn't care. Fact: A marketing official from Colt posted (several weeks ago) that Colt had NO policy preventing sales to non-LEOs. Fact: Neither HK nor Colt hate you.  They are just businesses.  Their main clients are police and military, so that's who they're directing sales to.  However, you can get any legal weapon from these companies with little to no effort.

+1. Well said.

Quoted:
HK is now accepting state & local LEO orders for the HK416 and I'm told civilian sales could be later this year.


I would love to see that...........I would get a Colt and an HK

Quoted: Quoted: HK is now accepting state & local LEO orders for the HK416 and I'm told civilian sales could be later this year. I would love to see that...........I would get a Colt and an HK

The local & state LEO orders are a done deal and already being accepted. I'm trying to stay optimistic about the civilian sales, but I trust the person who told me this.

Don`t blame Colt or HK. Blame the ATF and our politicians. Colt was stuck with the large trigger pins  when the ATF made them change the pin size in order to make the AR-15 civilian legal and bring it to market. HK got screwed over by an arbitrary import ban and the AWB. True, they did design some piss ugly guns. As has been  previously posted, they are businesses trying to stay in business. Competition will help them along. Think Colt would have marketed their piston upper if other companies weren`t? Think HK won`t market their 416 and 417s to the public if SIG has success with its carbine and .308 ARs continue to have success?

Quoted: Don`t blame Colt or HK. Blame the ATF and our politicians. Colt was stuck with the large trigger pins  when the ATF made them change the pin size in order to make the AR-15 civilian legal and bring it to market.

So, could you please explain why every other AR15 does not have oddball size pins?

Does the ATF just hate Colt?

Quoted: Yes.  Colt IS the new HK.  Both are bashed unreasonably by internet commandos who don't know the facts. Fact: HK is not permitted to import "assault" weapons due to the import ban. Fact: HK tried to bring weapons to the market that complied with the import ban.  When these weapons didn't sell, HK stopped producing them. Fact: HK has no restrictions on civilian sales of its Military/LE handguns, and will happily sell you a MK 23 with high standard caps. Fact: You can get any Colt AR from a number of places, like Knesek guns or Clyde. Fact: These aren't exactly backroom deals, Colt obviously knows about them and doesn't care. Fact: A marketing official from Colt posted (several weeks ago) that Colt had NO policy preventing sales to non-LEOs. Fact: Neither HK nor Colt hate you.  They are just businesses.  Their main clients are police and military, so that's who they're directing sales to.  However, you can get any legal weapon from these companies with little to no effort.

This conversation,  is over.

Tuesday, February 28, 2006

Hi Guys:

Colt and HK have not been friendly to civilian sales for quite some time now; with both catering only to the military and law enforcement markets.  Example: Colt discontinued individual officer law enforcement sales (through dealers) when the federal assault weapons ban expired.  However, because of Colt’s and HK’s sales policies, companies like Rock River, Lewis Machine and Tool, Bushmaster, Armalite, and all the others we know of, have flourished and meets our AR 15 needs.

Because of Colt’s and HK’s past sales policies, I do not for the life of me understand why some people on this board believe Colt and HK are suddenly going to reverse themselves and make available for civilian sales any type of  AR 15 type uppers or complete rifles.

I understand that Colt’s and HK’s sales policy does not make good business sense; why send time, money, and resources in research and development of a product and severely restrict or refuse sales to potential customers?   Dua!  

I am sorry guys, but I have been in this business too long; only when the UPS deliveryman walks through my shop door with packages in hand will I believe Colt or HK has come to their business senses.

Take Care…

MP5 Machinenpistole

Quoted: I am sorry guys, but I have been in this business too long; only when the UPS deliveryman walks through my shop door with packages in hand will I believe Colt or HK has come to their business senses.

You know you have to order one before the BBT will show up with your Colt, right?

Quoted: Quoted: Don`t blame Colt or HK. Blame the ATF and our politicians. Colt was stuck with the large trigger pins  when the ATF made them change the pin size in order to make the AR-15 civilian legal and bring it to market.   So, could you please explain why every other AR15 does not have oddball size pins? Does the ATF just hate Colt?

I don`t have a definite reason for it other than Colt didn`t have the resources at the time to fight the ATF. The newer ARs came along a good ten years after Colt was on the market. The ATF was originally concerned that AR-15s would be illegally converted to full auto on a large scale. When that didn`t happen, they lightened up. I believe (but don`t have any proof) that Colt may have been denied approval to use standard trigger pins. I believe any significant change to a civilian firearm sold in the US has to be approved by the ATF`s technical branch. Short, easy approvals can take at least 6 or more months.  If I`m wrong, I hope someone with the correct info will jump in.

Quoted: Because of Colt’s and HK’s past sales policies, I do not for the life of me understand why some people on this board believe Colt and HK are suddenly going to reverse themselves and make available for civilian sales any type of  AR 15 type uppers or complete rifles.

Are you serious?

Quoted: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 Hi Guys: Colt and HK have not been friendly to civilian sales for quite some time now; with both catering only to the military and law enforcement markets.  Example: Colt discontinued individual officer law enforcement sales (through dealers) when the federal assault weapons ban expired.  However, because of Colt’s and HK’s sales policies, companies like Rock River, Lewis Machine and Tool, Bushmaster, Armalite, and all the others we know of, have flourished and meets our AR 15 needs. Because of Colt’s and HK’s past sales policies, I do not for the life of me understand why some people on this board believe Colt and HK are suddenly going to reverse themselves and make available for civilian sales any type of  AR 15 type uppers or complete rifles. I understand that Colt’s and HK’s sales policy does not make good business sense; why send time, money, and resources in research and development of a product and severely restrict or refuse sales to potential customers?   Dua!   I am sorry guys, but I have been in this business too long; only when the UPS deliveryman walks through my shop door with packages in hand will I believe Colt or HK has come to their business senses. Take Care… MP5 Machinenpistole

Been out of the loop for a while, huh?  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don`t blame Colt or HK. Blame the ATF and our politicians. Colt was stuck with the large trigger pins  when the ATF made them change the pin size in order to make the AR-15 civilian legal and bring it to market.   So, could you please explain why every other AR15 does not have oddball size pins? Does the ATF just hate Colt? I don`t have a definite reason for it other than Colt didn`t have the resources at the time to fight the ATF. The newer ARs came along a good ten years after Colt was on the market. The ATF was originally concerned that AR-15s would be illegally converted to full auto on a large scale. When that didn`t happen, they lightened up. I believe (but don`t have any proof) that Colt may have been denied approval to use standard trigger pins. I believe any significant change to a civilian firearm sold in the US has to be approved by the ATF`s technical branch. Short, easy approvals can take at least 6 or more months.  If I`m wrong, I hope someone with the correct info will jump in.

For the younger ones out there, here is the history of the subject in a nut shell:

In order to get ATF approval for production of the SP1 the front pivot pin had to be relocated and made oversized.  Production started in 1964.

In the 1960 several changes were made to the bolt carrier, and fire control group to make them semiauto only.

After market look alike lowers came out in the early 1980's, such as Sendra, Essential Arms, and SGW/OLY.  These took standard front push pins and were popular for home builds with surplus parts kits.  In addition outfits like Bushmaster would assemble them into complete weapons.

Would have to look it up, but am pretty sure that it was 1988 that Colt's lost it's US contract for the M16A2.  Colt had been in continues production of AR-15/M16 rifles for the US Government since 1962.

In 1989 Eagle Arms offered complete EA15 rifles.

Colt Firearms Division restricted sale of their AR-15 series in 1989 in response to a negative public reaction to such events as that shooting involving an UZI.  At about the same time California passed their own home grown "assault weapon" ban, and the ATF stopped approving Form 6's for scary looking imports.

Colt Firearms Division basically failed at this point, and came back as Colt's Manufacturing Inc.  The semiautomatic AR-15 was brought back as the SPORTER series for the general public.  These were neutered in several areas. .  Soon after production restarted the following features changed; an oversized J pin trigger group, no bayonet lug, half round carrier, pinned in sear block, AR-15 roll marked dropped (banned in Cali).  These neutered features of the SPORTER series was a result of public and political pressure, but was not mandated by the ATF.

At the same time Colt continued to produce the semiautomatic 6520, but worked hard to restrict it sales to law enforcement.

In late 1990 Bushmaster came on line with their XM15E2's with their own snake roll marked lowers.

Several other makers of AR-15 type rifles come into play in the 1990's.  

1993 Colt stopped using the oversized and off set front pivot pin.

There was much talk of a "assault rifle" ban in 1993 and into 1994.  Interest in such weapons peaked, and small arms production reached war level in 1994 with serval manufactures in on the game.

Colt again gained a M16 contract in 1994, this time for their newly adopted and standardized M4 Carbine.

Despite Colt's attempts to appease politicians the "Crime Bill" passed in 1994.  Immediately after Colt's introduced a compliant series of rifles known as the MATCH TARGET.

Again, Colt's continued to offer the semiautomatic 6520 and a new one the 6721 to law enforcement.

In about 1996 Colt suspended use of the pin in sear block.

The Y2 scare again brought semiautomatic production to near war time levels.  Bushmaster had the biggest share of this action in that Colt was again busy with USGI contracts.

In 2001 the US entered war, and Colt got even busier building M4 Carbines for the US military.

Think it was 2002 when Colt finally dropped that screw pin and went ahead and factory installed push pins?

The "assault weapons" ban section of the Crime Bill lapsed in 2004.  Far as I can tell Colt immediately suspended production of the MATCH TARGET series and shifted semiautomatic production to their law enforcement series.  Unlike the 1989-1994 time frames Colt made zero effort to restrict sales of their law enforcement series.

Starting in 2005 Colt discontinued the semiautomatic carrier and started using the same carriers as used in their USGI Carbines.

That covered a bit more then I intended, but got on a roll there, and was having fun.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Don`t blame Colt or HK. Blame the ATF and our politicians. Colt was stuck with the large trigger pins  when the ATF made them change the pin size in order to make the AR-15 civilian legal and bring it to market.   So, could you please explain why every other AR15 does not have oddball size pins? Does the ATF just hate Colt? I don`t have a definite reason for it other than Colt didn`t have the resources at the time to fight the ATF. The newer ARs came along a good ten years after Colt was on the market. The ATF was originally concerned that AR-15s would be illegally converted to full auto on a large scale. When that didn`t happen, they lightened up. I believe (but don`t have any proof) that Colt may have been denied approval to use standard trigger pins. I believe any significant change to a civilian firearm sold in the US has to be approved by the ATF`s technical branch. Short, easy approvals can take at least 6 or more months.  If I`m wrong, I hope someone with the correct info will jump in. For the younger ones out there, here is the history of the subject in a nut shell: In order to get ATF approval for production of the SP1 the front pivot pin had to be relocated and made oversized.  Production started in 1964. In the 1960 several changes were made to the bolt carrier, and fire control group to make them semiauto only. After market look alike lowers came out in the early 1980's, such as Sendra, Essential Arms, and SGW/OLY.  These took standard front push pins and were popular for home builds with surplus parts kits.  In addition outfits like Bushmaster would assemble them into complete weapons. Would have to look it up, but am pretty sure that it was 1988 that Colt's lost it's US contract for the M16A2.  Colt had been in continues production of AR-15/M16 rifles for the US Government since 1962. In 1989 Eagle Arms offered complete EA15 rifles. Colt Firearms Division restricted sale of their AR-15 series in 1989 in response to a negative public reaction to such events as that shooting involving an UZI.  At about the same time California passed their own home grown "assault weapon" ban, and the ATF stopped approving Form 6's for scary looking imports. Colt Firearms Division basically failed at this point, and came back as Colt's Manufacturing Inc.  The semiautomatic AR-15 was brought back as the SPORTER series for the general public.  These were neutered in several areas. .  Soon after production restarted the following features changed; an oversized J pin trigger group, no bayonet lug, half round carrier, pinned in sear block, AR-15 roll marked dropped (banned in Cali).  These neutered features of the SPORTER series was a result of public and political pressure, but was not mandated by the ATF. At the same time Colt continued to produce the semiautomatic 6520, but worked hard to restrict it sales to law enforcement. In late 1990 Bushmaster came on line with their XM15E2's with their own snake roll marked lowers. Several other makers of AR-15 type rifles come into play in the 1990's.   1993 Colt stopped using the oversized and off set front pivot pin. There was much talk of a "assault rifle" ban in 1993 and into 1994.  Interest in such weapons peaked, and small arms production reached war level in 1994 with serval manufactures in on the game. Colt again gained a M16 contract in 1994, this time for their newly adopted and standardized M4 Carbine. Despite Colt's attempts to appease politicians the "Crime Bill" passed in 1994.  Immediately after Colt's introduced a compliant series of rifles known as the MATCH TARGET. Again, Colt's continued to offer the semiautomatic 6520 and a new one the 6721 to law enforcement. In about 1996 Colt suspended use of the pin in sear block. The Y2 scare again brought semiautomatic production to near war time levels.  Bushmaster had the biggest share of this action in that Colt was again busy with USGI contracts. In 2001 the US entered war, and Colt got even busier building M4 Carbines for the US military. Think it was 2002 when Colt finally dropped that screw pin and went ahead and factory installed push pins? The "assault weapons" ban section of the Crime Bill lapsed in 2004.  Far as I can tell Colt immediately suspended production of the MATCH TARGET series and shifted semiautomatic production to their law enforcement series.  Unlike the 1989-1994 time frames Colt made zero effort to restrict sales of their law enforcement series. Starting in 2005 Colt discontinued the semiautomatic carrier and started using the same carriers as used in their USGI Carbines. That covered a bit more then I intended, but got on a roll there, and was having fun.

Well said! I learned a few things too. (I've been interested in colt's story for along time.)

"PanzerMK7! Where ya going? This was just getting good!"  






Just kidding, Panzer.

Many feel the same way, ....as if Colt is conspiring to hose us and keep us from owning AR15's.

It simpy isn't so, and has become a full blown Urban Myth.

Thanks for the correct info Ekie.

Quoted: "PanzerMK7! Where ya going? This was just getting good!"   Just kidding, Panzer. Many feel the same way, ....as if Colt is conspiring to hose us and keep us from owning AR15's. It simpy isn't so, and has become a full blown Urban Myth.

O.K., now I know the whole story... and will never again make the mistake of bad mouthing Colt, I only need to learn that lesson once .