OK, the first thing i want to say is this is NOT on AR vs. AK thread. God im sick of those. I am looking to buy an AR-15 and thought i would ask you guys what i should get. I want a dependable, accurate rifle preferably that will last a long time, and i want a 30 round capacity. The lower the price the better, i would love to spend about 600-700 dollars and would prefer a good used rifle over a shit-heap new jam-o-matic. Thanks in advance and dont tell my dark-side bretheran about me comin over here.

Don't do it BRD has no cure!!!

But if you don't believe me and proceed you will have fun but that 600-700 dollars won't be the last $ spent on AR's

PICK ONE ///Build one cheap

The force is strong in this one..................

I was an AK guys for a long time till I got my first AR in '93.... Now I've spent the last 13 years trying to figure out how to finance my freakin' habit.... It's worse than CRACK!

- Clint

AK's are great weapons. But, then they are no AR. Good luck and have fun on your quest. It's just the beginning of a long and expensive journey.

I personally really like RRA models. Bushies are great but are little $$ for the same rifle. Check out ADCO 's site . They are a RRA dealer and are great to deal with. Welcome. No matter what you have been told or heard.The AR 15 is a very good rifle. Buy quality and get good mags. Decent ammo and your set.  I personally got a RRA Entry model. M4 style. I own a Colt and a Bushie. I can see no differance between the quality. Only the  price.  Good luck. Wardawg

Also get a chromed  barrel. Wardawg

Quoted: The force is strong in this one.................. I was an AK guys for a long time till I got my first AR in '93.... Now I've spent the last 13 years trying to figure out how to finance my freakin' habit.... It's worse than CRACK! - Clint

I've been telling everyone that!  First it was 1 black rifle, and then it was on.  After I bought my RR I swore I wouldn't buy another AR.  I'm waiting now for some parts from CMMG to put toghter another 1!  It never ends!  

I think DPMS AR's can be had for 600-700 bucks I think...

They will shoot all day long.  They aren't the top of the line, but the 2 I used to have functioned flawlessly.  I would still have them had I not needed money for a lawyer.

If $700 was all i had or would spend, I'd get a DPMS again.  Fortunalty, I'm filthy rich (in my mind) and like to build my own out of the best stuff I can buy...

I even have a telestock on my milled reciever Chinese Norinco Mak 90! I love AR's...........

- Clint

Quoted: OK, the first thing i want to say is this is NOT on AR vs. AK thread. God im sick of those. I am looking to buy an AR-15 and thought i would ask you guys what i should get. I want a dependable, accurate rifle preferably that will last a long time, and i want a 30 round capacity. The lower the price the better, i would love to spend about 600-700 dollars and would prefer a good used rifle over a shit-heap new jam-o-matic. Thanks in advance and dont tell my dark-side bretheran about me comin over here.

Hey, I moniter both sides, Ill tell everybody!

You will love them both, I sure love all my evil rifles. Keep an eye on the EE, and remember its easier to buildthan buy factory.

You'll end up spending more than 6-700 bucks because you need mags, ammo, and some good cleaning implements if you don't have them already.

Not to start a fight or anything there, but the good news about owning an AR, though, is that the sights don't suck donkey balls like the AK sights, and you'll find that even with a bone stock A1 or A2 AR, it will be much easier to place rounds on target and easier to hit targets farther away compared to the AK's.  You don't really "need" to drop money on all sorts of optics and doodads.

yeah, i know the ar is the superior rifle, but i wont admit it over on the dark side, theyll send someone to take me out. I love my ak but it isnt all that accurate. When i go the range i shoot my ak at 50 or 100 yards and you guys are shootin like 2 or 300. The only thing you ever hear on the dark side about ARs is how they all jam and they would never beat an ak in a fight because the ar will jam at least once and i just laugh. I like the ak for what it is, a very cheap,functional,extremely reliable rifle that shoots cheap ammo but id like an AR as well because i know and think they all do the ar is probably superior. Its time to move up to something that has some range.


p.s. are there any ARs i should steer clear of?

p.s. the reason i have to keep my spending low is not because i dont WANT a nice AR, I just dont have the money. for i am a lowly college poor boy.

Quoted: p.s. are there any ARs i should steer clear of?Hesse/Vulcan p.s. the reason i have to keep my spending low is not because i dont WANT a nice AR, I just dont have the money. for i am a lowly college poor boy. me too, know what its like

You can probably build up a pretty good AR for around $600. 44mag.com has the cheapest AR mags Ive ever seen right now at about $10, so you should get a few of those now while you can.

k i just looked at the rock river arms site and have some questions. Is the carry handle worth the extra money, does it serve another purpose besides carrying? Also is 5.56 the same thing as .223 or no? if no which is better. Im already getting a hard on just thinkin about this gun. I also realize the spending wont end at the gun, but i just cant spend the money on the accesories now. Thats cool cuz with tha ak there arent too many accessories to get, and the anticipation of the shit is fun too, and free.

Quoted: k i just looked at the rock river arms site and have some questions. Is the carry handle worth the extra money, does it serve another purpose besides carrying? Also is 5.56 the same thing as .223 or no? if no which is better. Im already getting a hard on just thinkin about this gun. I also realize the spending wont end at the gun, but i just cant spend the money on the accesories now. Thats cool cuz with tha ak there arent too many accessories to get, and the anticipation of the shit is fun too, and free.

5.56/223 per the ammo oracle:

Q. What is the difference between 5.56×45mm and .223 Remington ammo?

In the 1950's, the US military adopted the metric system of measurement and uses metric measurements to describe ammo.  However, the US commercial ammo market typically used the English "caliber" measurements when describing ammo.  "Caliber" is a shorthand way of saying "hundredths (or thousandths) of an inch."  For example, a fifty caliber projectile is approximately fifty one-hundredths (.50) of an inch and a 357 caliber projectile is approximately three-hundred and fifty-seven thousandths (.357) of an inch.  Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56 ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223 chambers, be unsafe to fire.

The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either.  Though the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles.  Military M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others, have the M16-spec chamber and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition.

Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally designed for bolt-action rifles.  Commercial SAAMI-specification .223 chambers have a much shorter throat or leade and less freebore than the military chamber.  Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000 psi or more.

The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as that is what is usually stamped on military barrels.  Some commercial AR manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled ".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which provides for increased accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability, especially with hot-loaded military ammo.  A few AR manufacturers use an in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber.  Many mis-mark their barrels too, which further complicates things.  You can generally tell what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings, if any, on the barrel, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure.

so which is the better round? also is Bushmaster any good?

Slaphappy1,

I'm surprised that no one has aked this yet. What do you want to be able to do with your AR? What range and accuracy do you want to be able to shoot at? There are SO MANY ways to set up ARs that you should probably sit down and decide these things before you start spending money. Many things can easily be swapped out latter if you want to go another direction with it down the road. When you choose the barrel, it will be a big factor on what your rifle will best be used for.


Be careful when you walk down this path because you will find yourself trying to decide what your next build will be even before this one is finished.

Nox

Quoted: so which is the better round? also is Bushmaster any good?

Get a 5.56, Bushmaster is IMHO the best.

Quoted: Slaphappy1, I'm surprised that no one has aked this yet. What do you want to be able to do with your AR? What range and accuracy do you want to be able to shoot at? There are SO MANY ways to set up ARs that you should probably sit down and decide these things before you start spending money. Many things can easily be swapped out latter if you want to go another direction with it down the road. When you choose the barrel, it will be a big factor on what your rifle will best be used for. Be careful when you walk down this path because you will find yourself trying to decide what your next build will be even before this one is finished. Nox

Yeah is this just a target rifle or a utility rifle.

If you are just going to punch holes in paper Id get a 20' but a carbine would work too. In time you'll probably end up with both.

Quoted: p.s. are there any ARs i should steer clear of? p.s. the reason i have to keep my spending low is not because i dont WANT a nice AR, I just dont have the money. for i am a lowly college poor boy.

Steer clear of Hess/Vulcan as was mentioned earlier.  I'm just reiterating to make his point stronger.  

Other than that, it's mostly preference.  I say stick with a chrom chamber and barrel, but steel (chrome-moly) barrels are more accurate, if only by a VERY SMALL AMOUNT.  I like chrome-lined because it's easier to clean, lasts longer, and won't rust.  

DPMS and RRA make many models without chrome-lining, or offer it as an option.  Bushmaster and some of the others don't even make it an option, but make it STANDARD.  That's why some prefer these companies.  

Regarding carry handles, tactical receiver mounts, A1 uppers, A2 uppers, etc... it's personal preference, as what appeals to some, can be viewed as negative to others.  It USED to be widely accepted that an A2 upper receiver was superior to the A1 upper receiver (adjustable sights, thicker carry handle, etc...)  However, now days, a LOT of folks are getting back into the SIMPLER design of the A1 upper.  It's lighter, and the A1 sights are fine, even if they aren't easily adjustable.  Adjustable to some, means "screw-up-able" to others.  

If I had to suggest ONE rifle to a newbie, it would be a copy of the M4.  Colt (of course) makes a very good copy called the LE6920.  CMMG has an excellent M4 clone in their MOD4.  The CMMG can be bought as a lower (through an FFL) and an upper, saving the excise tax.  I bought mine with the 4 position collapsable stock for $754, compared to the $1195 or higher the LE6920 goes for.  I'd put them neck and neck any day of the week.  

Here's a pic of my CMMG MOD4 with Spec-Ops Mamba sling.



It has a flattop upper, 16" M4 profile barrel made with 4150 steel, chrome-lined chamber/bore, with M4 feedramps, M4 handguards, etc...  The Colt would come with the side sling-swivel mount, but I had to pay the $20 for it extra.  I think I still came out on the better end.  

I would stick with a 5.56 chamber unless you want to make a match-grade super-long range coyote killer.  In that case, get a .223 chamber and go with a stainless barrel, too.  

Oh goodness, there's too much info to put down here.  Keep the questions coming if you need more info.  

+1 to everything jwise said. I would guess most people get an M4 clone (M4gery) as their first AR.

If you can shoot both and decide first, go to an WI arfcom shoot. I know the cheeseheads above me are pretty active, Im sure they'd let ya shoot some of their guns and try out different styles.

ETA: I love CMMG!

Quoted: If you are just going to punch holes in paper Id get a 20' but a carbine would work too. In time you'll probably end up with both.

Yeah, most definitely.  



You gotta have something to mount a bayonet on!  

Others:

thanks for all the help guys. I will mostly use the rifle for range type things, but would also like it to look cool and tactical like just for fun. I may hunt with it as well. I dont know why but i like the shorter versions, but is a 16 inch bbl as accurate as a 20 inch bbl. What would u guys recommend as far as the chambering goes? Its amazing how the responses come pooring in, ever since all the knowledable ak guys went over to the other site the responses have come in slow for peoples posts and half the time people post ignorant shit, not to mention ive seen like 10 ar vs ak threads in the last month.

Quoted: p.s. the reason i have to keep my spending low is not because i dont WANT a nice AR, I just dont have the money. for i am a lowly college poor boy.

Staying under $700 is not too hard if you're buying used pre-owned.    But the good thing about ARs, is that you can go ahead and buy a decent lower right now for $100-250 (depends on how "complete" the lower is.)  Then take your time to research exactly what you want (and save up), and buy the upper later on.  If the $500 or so for the upper you want is still too big of a pill to swallow, you can go ahead and buy the complete Bolt/Carrier/Charging Handle group for $150 or so while you're still deciding.  The good thing is, NONE of this I would consider to be "building your own," as it doesn't require any tools to just assemble the pieces.  The true "build it yourselfers" can save even more money, but they buy stripped lowers and lower parts kits, barrels and stripped uppers, etc...  That's a little too labor intensive for me, and I don't want to install my first trigger group incorrectly!  

If you want to go with completed lowers, check out Eagle Firearms (I have bought a Bushmaster lower with Rock River National Match 2-stage trigger from these guys), CMMG, Stag (I don't know who deals in completed Stag lowers, but they get very good reviews here), or other Dealers on the Industry forums page.

Quoted: thanks for all the help guys. I will mostly use the rifle for range type things, but would also like it to look cool and tactical like just for fun. I may hunt with it as well. I dont know why but i like the shorter versions, but is a 16 inch bbl as accurate as a 20 inch bbl. What would u guys recommend as far as the chambering goes? Its amazing how the responses come pooring in, ever since all the knowledable ak guys went over to the other site the responses have come in slow for peoples posts and half the time people post ignorant shit, not to mention ive seen like 10 ar vs ak threads in the last month.

16' will be just as accurate. 5.56 chome lined chamber is what Id reccomend, which is pretty standard. Sorry 'bout leaving you for the other AK site, you could always join us.

Well, now we know you want a carbine you have options.

Will you want an EOTech or other optic? => Flat top or A2 upper?

14.5 or 16' bbl?

Not a Thing wrong with haveing both, Enjoy the best of both

Superior Arms Lowers

For my money, those are the best lowers out there for the money, lots of positive reviews for them!

Quoted: thanks for all the help guys. I will mostly use the rifle for range type things, but would also like it to look cool and tactical like just for fun. I may hunt with it as well. I dont know why but i like the shorter versions, but is a 16 inch bbl as accurate as a 20 inch bbl. What would u guys recommend as far as the chambering goes? Its amazing how the responses come pooring in, ever since all the knowledable ak guys went over to the other site the responses have come in slow for peoples posts and half the time people post ignorant shit, not to mention ive seen like 10 ar vs ak threads in the last month.

20" vs 16" really doesn't affect the barrel's accuracy as much as velocity, but even then, not by much.   The profile of the barrel, the chamber, and what it's made of will have MUCH more impact on the accuracy than the length.  

My 16" M4 profile barrel will shoot just as good as my 20" Gov't barrel, both with 5.56 chambers.  But a 11.5" stainless match barrel with a match .223 chamber will outshoot ALL of mine.  Truth is, I hit what I aim at, so accuracy isn't lacking in ANY of my rifles.  

My AR pictured above with the scope is a 16" HBAR (heavy under the handguards) with a free-floated tube handguard.  It is the most accurate I have, but hardly.  

When we're talking about ARs, accuracy really isn't an issue, since they're ALL accurate.  If you want crazy-insane "match grade" accurate, then you have to compromise the system's reliability (going to .223 chamber) across ammo selections, and durability (stainless vs. chrome.)  

A Rock River 2-stage National Match trigger will do more to enhance the accuracy you achieve than the barrel you choose, length or otherwise.  

By the way, when you look on the barrel, you'll see something like: "5.56NATO   1/9   HBAR."  This means it has a 5.56 chamber, a 1/9 rate of twist (good all around twist, but some prefer 1/7, I have both) and it is an HBAR (meaning, it's heavy under the handguards.)  HBARs will be cheaper because it requires less machining to turn the WHOLE barrel down, not just the front portion.  They are 1/2lb heavier on average.  I like lighter barrels in general.  

In summary, get an M4 profile, 16" chrome-lined barrel with a 5.56 chamber.  These are currently the most popular, for GOOD reasons.

Quoted: Superior Arms Lowers For my money, those are the best lowers out there for the money, lots of positive reviews for them!

It looks like RB Precision, Inc has better prices than Superior Arms' site.  $215 for a complete lower with 6-pos adj stock is AWESOME!  +$85 for the Nat'l Match 2-stage!  Slaphappy, get that one!

well since the shorter are as accurate i think ill go for a 16 inch barrel with no carry handle,, chambered in 5.56, chrome lined for ease of cleaning, and as far as the lower goes ill have to look into it more since you guys recommend different ones. Fuck you guys for making me wanna sell my ak tomorrow.

by the way i went to vulcan arms to see what to stay away from and the title of the website says:
Vulcan Armament Inc. [The Best-Built Firearms in the World!]. just thought that was kinda funny. Like i said im an ak guy and i definately want reliability over a little bit more accuracy. Accuracy doesnt matter when the gun wont fire.

Thanks for all the imput guys, i really appreciate it

When you say no carry handle, do you mean 1 or 2?

If you dont get a carry handle you will need to get some type of iron sight to mount on the flattop receiver. I would recommend ordering the lower and upper separately to your specifications. That way you can pay for what you can afford, and you wont end up buying a complete rifle and eventually changing just about everything on it to get it set up exactly how you want it.

I would recommend getting a RRA, LMT, Global Tactical (Dennys Guns Made by CMT), or a Bushmaster complete lower from one of the great dealers on the EE here. If you get a RRA or a Bushmaster, try to get it with a Milspec collapsable Stock/buffer tube assembly. It will give you the option of upgrading to a Vltor or a SOPMOD stock body without having to replace the entire buffer tube as well. (RRA & BM use a larger OD tube than Milspec). Check out Mooneys, Teknic, Dennys Guns, Eagle firearms, and ADCO's ads on the EE for good deals on complete lower receivers.

Dont skimp on mags. Get USGI 30rounders with MagPul followers. They run about $20 each from a few dealers on the EE.

I would advise to stay away from RRA factory built uppers only because they dremel extended feed-ramps into the barrel extension and receiver as their answer to real M4 feedramps. Aside from the fact that they do a half-assed job, and it just looks like shit, it just doesnt offer any advantages and just doesnt make any sense.

I would instead advise looking at Stag arms or Bushmaster for a factory built complete upper. A complete Stag M4 style 16" upper, minus the carry handle will run about $450 from Eaglefirearms.

Quoted: When you say no carry handle, do you mean 1 or 2? i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/Iron_Airship/A2vsA4.jpg

#2

YEAH, I mean number 2, it doesnt have any rear sights on it?

what kind of scopes are the best for around 100 or would i be better savin for an aimpoit?

Quoted: YEAH, I mean number 2, it doesnt have any rear sights on it?

Ok you want a flat top upper reciever. Do you want magnified scope or a red dot?

+1 on Stag Arms M4 uppers, great shooters!

this may seem like a dumb question, but is there one thats both? if not or way out of the price range than prolly a magnifier, but i want to hear what you guys like. Ihave no experience so ill listen to what you guys like.

There are variable scopes (1-4x) that offer the best of both worlds (CQB and Medium range), but the quality ones are well over $1000.00. I Think the Aimpoint ML3 with the addition of a 3x magnifier is a good option for what you are looking for.

The AR's rear sight is built into the removable carry handle, so you would be better off ordering the complete upper minus the carry handle, and ordering a BUIS (Back-Up-Iron-Sight) such as a LaRue or LMT fixed, or a Troy or ARMS low-profile flip-up rear sight. If you plan on adding a 3x magnifier later on, I would suggest that you go with the flip-up rear sight.

Avoid at all costs the RRA "tactical carry handle", it offers a built it rear sight, but other than that, it is useless and only limits your optic mounting options.

Quoted: YEAH, I mean number 2, it doesnt have any rear sights on it?

The rear sight is in the carry handle.  The A1 and A2 upper receivers have integral carry handles that can't be removed.  The A3 upper has a flattop which can mount the removeable carry handle or any number of rear sights (fixed or folding) and optics.  

If you get an A3 upper without the optional carry handle, you then have to buy a separate rear sight.  An A3 (flattop) rifle WITH the removeable carry handles cost a bit more than the A2 because you're getting the carry handle as a separate piece.  The A2 is a great platform, but the A3 gives you more variety.  Your choice.  I have three A3s and one A2.  

Quoted: There are variable scopes (1-4x) that offer the best of both worlds (CQB and Medium range), but the quality ones are well over $1000.00. I Think the Aimpoint ML3 with the addition of a 3x magnifier is a good option for what you are looking for. The AR's rear sight is built into the removable carry handle, so you would be better off ordering the complete upper minus the carry handle, and ordering a BUIS (Back-Up-Iron-Sight) such as a LaRue or LMT fixed, or a Troy or ARMS low-profile flip-up rear sight. If you plan on adding a 3x magnifier later on, I would suggest that you go with the flip-up rear sight. Avoid at all costs the RRA "tactical carry handle", it offers a built it rear sight, but other than that, it is useless and only limits your optic mounting options.

Excellent advice....

I would go on to say.... forget optics for now.  You have already said you can't afford one with the budget you stated.  Just get the upper without the carry handle (saves money), and buy a rear "BUIS" (back up iron sight.)  I've never seen a "cheap" BUIS, so just find one you like.  They all run between $80-150.  The Troys come highly rated, but I have Bushmaster BMAS rear flip sights.  I think they're made by YHM (Yankee Hill Machine.)  

Later on down the road, after you've had your fun with GOOD iron sights, you can drop the $300-1500 on a good optic.  I like the Eotech ($330), but the Aimpoints have their advantages ($450 after mount.)  An optic with magnification will run you quite a bit more.  Trijicon makes the ACOG in a variety of flavors ($500-1100), Schmidt and Bender makes the Short Dot ($1800), Leupold makes the Mk something-or-other ($700?), and so on.  The magnifier for the Aimpoint costs about $400 plus the mount.

I think you'd agree that optics are out of your price range for now.  Don't worry, you can always add one later!  

One last thing: Check out the "M4gery picture thread" in this forum.  You'll see LOTS of configurations.  When you see some you like, email the member and ask about it.  Most people like talking about their rifles!  

If it helps you any, I'm a poor college student as well.

Just put a Bushmaster M4A2 (16" M4 profile barrel, fixed carry handle, chrome bore, 5.56) on layway.  I feel that it will do anything it's called to do well, which I primarily got it for plinking and home defense when/if the SHTF.  

Now, I'll go blow off another hundred odd dollars on Bravo Company and get a pack of 10 mags with 10 magpul followers...I'm just waiting for Academy to get som Q3131 in, dammit!

ive seen the red dots at wal mart for like 40 bucks, would this work?

Quoted: ive seen the red dots at wal mart for like 40 bucks, would this work?

Shhhhhhhhhh.......don't let the "OMG its not a EOTech or Aimpoint" guys hear you. But hey if it work of you then who cares who made it!

A local gun dealer here has Chinese knockoff ACOG's for $135, and the one with variable power and lite rec. is $215.... And they look identical to an ACOG......  

But you get what you pay for..................

- Clint

Quoted: I think DPMS AR's can be had for 600-700 bucks I think... They will shoot all day long.  They aren't the top of the line, but the 2 I used to have functioned flawlessly.  I would still have them had I not needed money for a lawyer. If $700 was all i had or would spend, I'd get a DPMS again.  Fortunalty, I'm filthy rich (in my mind) and like to build my own out of the best stuff I can buy...

  I was at my range yesterday, and next to me was a guy with a new DMPS that he said will not fire 5.56 rounds without jamming every other shot.  He says after trying many types of ammo, American .223 was the only type it would take reliably.  He also said he was content that it took one type reliably and would stick with it, but I encouraged him to call them and send it back.  He said it could be because it had less than 1,000 rounds through it, but my two Colt's and Bushmaster have been flawless since day one.  I really don't fully buy the "break-in" philosophy.

 By the way, I am not bashing all DMPS, as I have never owned one.  But, if I were you I'd go with a Bushmaster for the best deal.

I built mine all NEW for $870 roughly.


From Denny/GTS:
CMT E. Bolt + Carrier
CMT Charging Handle w/ Tac Latch
CMT A4 Upper Reciever

Delton:
YHM Flip up A2 sight.
Stag Arms A2 Lower

ADCO:
RRA Chrome Lined 16" Mid-Length Barrel, handguards, gas tube, delta.

Now, a few notes...
1) A2 stock is generally cheaper by about $15.
2) I spent that $15 on a tac-latch.
3) Thats counting a few luxuries like magpul followers.
4) You could get alot of stuff on the exchange used for a good deal.
5) 4x scope will blur out your front sight, I tried it. So no obstructions here.
6) 5.56 Winchester White Box shoots flames... in broad daylight!

Just a few things I have learned, to pass onto a fellow noob.

A collapsable stock would be more useful than a tactical latch for your charging handle.  

Just IMO.  

Quoted: Quoted: ive seen the red dots at wal mart for like 40 bucks, would this work? Shhhhhhhhhh.......don't let the "OMG its not a EOTech or Aimpoint" guys hear you. But hey if it work of you then who cares who made it!

"BUY CHEAP, BUY TWICE"

It will work...But for unknown period of time, with unknown reliability at holding its zero, and unknown reliability when you really need it.

I dont consider myself one of the "OMG guys", But I carry my carbine with me everyday at work, and I have trained with it enough to know what has worked for me, and what didnt. I have also seen what has NOT worked for others who think their cheap gear will work when they really need it to, but find it will not even make it through a 8 hour carbine class.

The reason many here are advising to build it up from quality parts, one piece at a time, limited by his finances, is because it doesnt make a bit of sense to advise someone to skimp on quality when they may need to use the rifle to defend themself down the road.

There is good reason that our troops are not walking around with $40 aimpoint knock-offs on their M4's.

Quoted: A collapsable stock would be more useful than a tactical latch for your charging handle.   Just IMO.

I just don't like sliders. I can see their use for armored/heavily clothed reasons.... but I don't goto the range with a LVL III vest nor do I own one. From a strickly survival standpoint, its storage of a cleaning kit when having to leave your home in a hurry is a great plus.

Quoted: Quoted: A collapsable stock would be more useful than a tactical latch for your charging handle.   Just IMO.   I just don't like sliders. I can see their use for armored/heavily clothed reasons.... but I don't goto the range with a LVL III vest nor do I own one. From a strickly survival standpoint, its storage of a cleaning kit when having to leave your home in a hurry is a great plus.

A2 buttstocks are too long for me.  I'd prefer the A1 stock or the "Entry" stock that RRA sells over the A2 if you want a fixed stock.  

If you really want a cheap red dot sight to screw around with at the range until you get enough money for a good one, go for it.  I did, and later gave it to a relative.  I have since gotten a "Tacpoint" (Aimpoint knock-off) for one of my knock-around rifles.  I have pulled it off, and now it sits in the box it came in.  I'll sell it to you for $75 (costs $125 new.)  

I run Eotechs on my serious rifles.