Thinking about purchasing my first AR in a 308 platform (instead of the 223) and am intrigued by the DPMS LR-308C (16" barrel).  Anybody have some feedback on this rifle (or the manufacturer).  Want a solid tactical rifle, plus want the range and punch of 308 caliber for sport shooting.  Feedback and suggestions please?

Quoted: Thinking about purchasing my first AR in a 308 platform (instead of the 223) and am intrigued by the DPMS LR-308C (16" barrel).  Anybody have some feedback on this rifle (or the manufacturer).  Want a solid tactical rifle, plus want the range and punch of 308 caliber for sport shooting.  Feedback and suggestions please?

I heard (also, I am on the waiting list to get mine) that they are the best shooter and most important,
most accurate out of the box 308 AR platform.

As soon as I saw them I was looking for them, I really want the AP4 set-up. DPMS doesnt sell a carry handle
for them, so I already bought a Bushmaster detachable carry handle from their line of 308's that unfortunately got
cancelled. I will buy a DPMS LR308 and try to make it look like a big M4...... glub glub


Also you might want to look into RRA's new line of 308's.............they are not out yet but looks promising.............




It uses FAL mags so it would be alot cheaper to stock up on mags than the DPMS 308 with $40 mags.
I think I might change my mind on that purchase and buy my first RRA in 308........but gotta hear reviews first.

Since "AR" stands for ARmalite and AR-10 is an ArmaLite model, the Panther isn't any type of AR-10 platform.  It IS a type of .308 platform however.




5sub

24" bull bbl hits at 1100 yards repeatedly in our DDm course. The 18 inch should be solid, just get it broken in before you pass any judgements. The tolerances are really tight.

The RRA .308 is simply the Bushmaster  BAR-10 abortion.

Go with an AP4 upper. They're much nicer and have an ejection port cover.

The DPMS is an AR type platform, whatever the Armalite crowd have to say. If you took their position at face value, Colt doesn't build ARs...

Nice rifles.

Simon

Actually, I do own a Colt AR15, SP1 (modified upper with full aluminum) that I just purchased on a whim from a neighbor; however.  I've got the "new gun" rash and have to have the 308 (already have the Colt up for sale).  If I get a buyer for the Colt, I'll be ordering ASAP, if not, I'll still be ordering (probably by May or June).  

So the comments about Rock River 308 being the "abortion Bushmaster?"  What the story on this?  Are there problems with the RR?  

Good feedback so far, please keep the information flowing!!!

There was a pretty long thread with pics here:

DPMS LR


- Ice

DPMS 308 Detachable Carrying Handle.
308-DCH
Yes, they do offer one.

I can't see how anyone can say whether the RRA is going to be a good rifle or not, seeing as how they aren't on the market yet.  I can't believe RRA would market a piece of junk.  They are a solid company.  Lets wait and see what the rifles do when they are shipping them.  Until that day all comments about quality are speculation pure and simple.

Cheers,

Phil

Quoted: Go with an AP4 upper. They're much nicer and have an ejection port cover. The DPMS is an AR type platform, whatever the Armalite crowd have to say. If you took their position at face value, Colt doesn't build ARs... Nice rifles. Simon

AR-10 is trademarked.

AR-15 is now in the public domain.  Colt is just too stupid for their own good sometimes.

AR is/was an ArmaLite designator and stands for ArmaLite.

Calling a DPMS LR308 an AR-10 is like calling a magazine a "clip" and a flash suppressor a "flash hider".

While we all understand what is being said, it sounds ignorant to those who know better.

Since "AR" stands for ARmalite and AR-10 is an ArmaLite model, the Panther isn't any type of AR-10 platform. It IS a type of .308 platform however.


Does that mean that the Stag Arms, Olympic Arms and the Rock River AR15's I own aren't really AR15's????

...is like calling a magazine a "clip"...

But then again, Armalite isn't really Armalite is it?

Quoted: ...is like calling a magazine a "clip"... But then again, Armalite isn't really Armalite is it?

According to the Patent and Trademark attorneys, Mark Westrom, the President of ArmaLite, Inc, owns the trademark to AR-10, AR-10B, AR-10(T), etc....

At the end of the day, only a company called Armalite makes AR-10's.  If your pockets are deep enough, I'm sure you could find a judge that would agree with me.  

Quoted: Does that mean that the Stag Arms, Olympic Arms and the Rock River AR15's I own aren't really AR15's????

The AR-15 nomenclature is no longer under Patent or Trademark protection.  The AR-15 spec's and blueprints are in the common, and public, domain - just like the M4 was ruled to be recently.

That argument is an apples to water buffalo analogy.

Ever heard some dumbass refer to a smallish SUV as a "jeep"??  You look around and all you see is a RAV4 or CRV or Daihatsu Rocky or Range Rover or something?  A Jeep is a Jeep, a Honda CRV is not a Jeep.

Didn't Bushmaster already prove that you can't build a reliable .308 AR style rifle that uses FAL magazines????


Also just an FYI- if you go with a 16" barrel on a .308 your muzzle velocity is only about 85 FPS greater than the muzzle velocity of the 123grain 7.62x39 round out of an AK barrel. So other than launching a 165 grain bullet that weighs only 40 grains more from your 16" .308 platform- you have an AK for the most part with ammo that weighs nearly twice as much if not three times greater than the standard 5.56NATO. I know of course their is a difference but the loss in velocity by using a 16" barrel in a .308 is not worth the extra weight when terminal balistics with such loss of velocity are minimal at best over standard 5.56NATO. So really when it comes .308- sure the 16" barrels "look" cool, are loud, weigh a bit more, but not any better. Remember engergy transferred is mass x velocity squared. So the .308 series should be built around a 18" minimum barrel length at best.

Just my .02,
Creeper  

Quoted: Quoted: Thinking about purchasing my first AR in a 308 platform (instead of the 223) and am intrigued by the DPMS LR-308C (16" barrel).  Anybody have some feedback on this rifle (or the manufacturer).  Want a solid tactical rifle, plus want the range and punch of 308 caliber for sport shooting.  Feedback and suggestions please? I heard (also, I am on the waiting list to get mine) that they are the best shooter and most important, most accurate out of the box 308 AR platform. As soon as I saw them I was looking for them, I really want the AP4 set-up. DPMS doesnt sell a carry handle for them, so I already bought a Bushmaster detachable carry handle from their line of 308's that unfortunately got cancelled. I will buy a DPMS LR308 and try to make it look like a big M4...... glub glub Also you might want to look into RRA's new line of 308's.............they are not out yet but looks promising............. www.rockriverarms.com/images/r308mid.gif It uses FAL mags so it would be alot cheaper to stock up on mags than the DPMS 308 with $40 mags. I think I might change my mind on that purchase and buy my first RRA in 308........but gotta hear reviews first.

Wolf is listed at 2395fps, I assume that is from a standard AK barrel.  Whatever that is.

Using a quick external ballistics calculator that shows that the .308Win has more energy at 225yds than the AK has at the muzzle.

Even with the velocity reduced by 20fps/inch of barrel lost, or 2490fps.

A better BC and sectional density mean better time to distance and theoretically better penetration.

That's looking at a .308 match load.

7.62NATO loads are even hotter at 147gr with NATO pressures. Comparison Chart

M80 ball listed at 2700fps from a 20" barrel.  Which would yield ~2620fps from a 16" barrel.

I'd say that smokes the pants off a 7.62x39.

Quoted: I can't see how anyone can say whether the RRA is going to be a good rifle or not, seeing as how they aren't on the market yet. I can't believe RRA would market a piece of junk.  They are a solid company.  Lets wait and see what the rifles do when they are shipping them.  Until that day all comments about quality are speculation pure and simple. Cheers, Phil

I guess you have not seen the picture of the feedramps in one of my RRA DEA uppers?

The RRA design is from Bushmaster.  And what did Bushmaster do with that line?  If Bushmaster could not make that platform work reliably, would do you think RRA can?  Bushmaster been at this game a bit longer than RRA.  The only thing RRA has going for it in that line is that some of their engineers once worked for ARmalite.  Unless RRA does something drastic to the design, I would put money on a DPMS first if there was a budget concern.  If budget was not an issue I would take the AR-10 anyday.

Quoted: I guess you have not seen the picture of the feedramps in one of my RRA DEA uppers? The RRA design is from Bushmaster.  And what did Bushmaster do with that line?  If Bushmaster could not make that platform work reliably, would do you think RRA can?  Bushmaster been at this game a bit longer than RRA.  The only thing RRA has going for it in that line is that some of their engineers once worked for ARmalite.  Unless RRA does something drastic to the design, I would put money on a DPMS first if there was a budget concern.  If budget was not an issue I would take the AR-10 anyday.

I see you are one of the people who have boughten into the myths surrounding the BAR10. I was once one as well. Upon looking into the whole ordeal, I realized how irrelvant the common assumptions really are.

Myth - The bolt breakage issue is because of FAL mags.

This is completely false. I have yet to see but one BAR10 bolt that was broken anywhere aside from the indented tail. These breakages were not from FAL mags, but from a pointless indent that some how made it into the design. Bushmaster did address this near the end of their run, and RRA has stated they are addressing it even further. Expect to see the tail of the bolts beefed up to the point there will be no issues.

Myth - Bushmaster deleted a lug to use FAL mags.

Another misunderstood area. Bushmaster never deleted the 6 o'clock lug. They simply shaved it down a very minimal amount. I have seen one bolt issue possibly relating to that shaved lug, and it was a minorly chipped lug that the author said did not effect function in any way. When I say chip, it was literally a minor chip. Reguardless, it is completely false that Bushmaster deleted a lug to allow proper feeding.

Fact - Bushmaster thickened the tail of the bolt's when the problem became common.
Fact - Rock River stated they are going to reinforce the bolts even more.

The BAR10 did suffer some growing pains, and with the discontinuation, it appears it was done at Bushmaster's expense. Bushmaster had very high prices that resulted in little sales on a market that no longer suffers from high capacity magazine envy. I'm confident that RRA will cover any possible defects that happen, and they will adjust the design accordingly.

Here is a picture of where the bolts really break, and the problem area is circled for anyone that cares.  The bolt tail issue should not be an issue any more.

Quoted: I'm confident that RRA will....

I really like RRA, but the infancy of this design makes me a little nervous.

Their pricing scheme is light years better than Bushmaster's was though.  I suspect you will find some base RRA 308 AR for right around $1000.

That is a pretty "right" price.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm confident that RRA will.... I really like RRA, but the infancy of this design makes me a little nervous. Their pricing scheme is light years better than Bushmaster's was though.  I suspect you will find some base RRA 308 AR for right around $1000. That is a pretty "right" price.

Exactly. It is in it's infancy, but that's no reason to rule it out, especially at that price. I'm confident RRA will put an effort into developing it now that some of the major kinks are being addressed. As with all new rifles, only time will tell and I hope any possible future issues will be corrected as well.

The name AR-15 is a Colt trademark, and has been since they bought it in 1959.  They also bought the name AR-10, but did not use it, so Mark was able to snag it.

Quoted: The name AR-15 is a Colt trademark, and has been since they bought it in 1959.

I thought that they let it lapse....

If not, oh well, like I said they do some dumb things -- like not enforcing their trademark if they still have it.

Quoted: Quoted: The name AR-15 is a Colt trademark, and has been since they bought it in 1959. I thought that they let it lapse.... If not, oh well, like I said they do some dumb things -- like not enforcing their trademark if they still have it.

The AR-15 trade mark is enforced, here and there.  For one thing, you don't see other manufacturers roll marking their rifles AR-15.

According to the Patent and Trademark attorneys...

Now that I know I might be pissing off a lawyer, I'll be sure to call all AR-10 clones AR-10s.  

Just kidding.  

Not.

Just kidding.  

Quoted: According to the Patent and Trademark attorneys... Now that I know I might be pissing off a lawyer, I'll be sure to call all AR-10 clones AR-10s.

....after I wrote it, I thought the same thing.

If this pisses off lawyers maybe I SHOULD start calling them all AR-10's.

223Rem,

No I haven't seen any pix of your RRA DEA feed ramps.  But, I have seen lots of RRA feed ramps and they are uniformly very well done.  

If you don't like RRA why do you buy their stuff?  

Phil

WOW!!!  That's a lot of good information on the subject - especially Creeper's comments on barrel lengths > velocities, etc.  The weight is something that I really haven't considered too much until now.  Most of my shooting will be range-type stuff, and have it handy if the days comes when I have to "lock n load!"  Don't see myself doing much varmit hunting - I am an avid Deer Hunter (thus the 308) - just like big guns!  

I'd definitely get something with 18" barrel (or more).

thanks guys, your wisdom is appreciated!

Quoted: Wolf is listed at 2395fps, I assume that is from a standard AK barrel.  Whatever that is. Using a quick external ballistics calculator that shows that the .308Win has more energy at 225yds than the AK has at the muzzle. Even with the velocity reduced by 20fps/inch of barrel lost, or 2490fps. A better BC and sectional density mean better time to distance and theoretically better penetration. That's looking at a .308 match load. 7.62NATO loads are even hotter at 147gr with NATO pressures. Comparison Chart M80 ball listed at 2700fps from a 20" barrel.  Which would yield ~2620fps from a 16" barrel. I'd say that smokes the pants off a 7.62x39.

Ok you just said yourself, basically firing .308 will net around 2490FPS which is less than 100FPS faster than 7.62x39. Actually I have seen the chronoed results from shooting .308 out of a 16" barrel and it is more around the mid 2400's in velocity. True the .308 bullet weighs more, retains more energy but by how much? It only weighs maybe 40 grains more than 7.62x39 and with your Hot M80 ball your talking less than 30 grains more. That is if your numbers of 2620 from a 16" barrel are accurate but many posted results on this board from members have shown otherwise- so what exactly are you gaining by going to a 16" barreled .308 rifle?  Considering your ammo weighs twice as much as 5.56NATO and terminal results are marginally better than 7.62x39 then I'd say your just getting a really heavy AK that doesn't perform balistics wise much better than a standard 5.56NATO AR. Now getting an 18" barreled .308 AR then you might gain something here but not much. The round was designed around a 21" barrel, not a carbine.  

Just my .02-
Creeper

Quoted: Creeper, As with most of your hypotheses, there is a fundamental flaw in your thinking that pretty much invalidates the whole thing. 1) Find information on the Ballistic Coefficient of .308 bullets. 2) Find information on the Ballistic Coeficient of 7.62x39 projectiles. 3) Notice a huge difference. 4) Discard faulty hypotheses.

Thanks, that's what I was getting at.....

Quoted: Ok you just said yourself, basically firing .308 will net around 2490FPS which is less than 100FPS faster than 7.62x39. Actually I have seen the chronoed results from shooting .308 out of a 16" barrel and it is more around the mid 2400's in velocity.

Match rounds in a battle carbine isn't necessary in the 7.62NATO rifles.  The 147gr M80 ball is doing 2600fps+.

True the .308 bullet weighs more, retains more energy but by how much?

I noted the difference.  The standard 123gr AK round has the same energy at the muzzle as a 168gr match round for the .308Win has at 225yds.  About 600 lbs-ft more at the muzzle for the Match round.  A lot more.

Holy fucking hijack batman!!!!

anyway my co worker shoots a DPMS 18" for Silhouette
that rifle drives tacks  shoots sub MOA out to 900 yrards  3/4 to 700

have sold many of the LR 308s all the feedback i have gotten is they drive tacks
the plastic  magazines suck though

also they will not extract 7.62x51mm most of the time but how often you gonna shoot surplus in a flat top Hbar  rifle

Quoted: Quoted: I guess you have not seen the picture of the feedramps in one of my RRA DEA uppers? The RRA design is from Bushmaster.  And what did Bushmaster do with that line?  If Bushmaster could not make that platform work reliably, would do you think RRA can?  Bushmaster been at this game a bit longer than RRA.  The only thing RRA has going for it in that line is that some of their engineers once worked for ARmalite.  Unless RRA does something drastic to the design, I would put money on a DPMS first if there was a budget concern.  If budget was not an issue I would take the AR-10 anyday. I see you are one of the people who have boughten into the myths surrounding the BAR10. I was once one as well. Upon looking into the whole ordeal, I realized how irrelvant the common assumptions really are. Myth - The bolt breakage issue is because of FAL mags. This is completely false. I have yet to see but one BAR10 bolt that was broken anywhere aside from the indented tail. These breakages were not from FAL mags, but from a pointless indent that some how made it into the design. Bushmaster did address this near the end of their run, and RRA has stated they are addressing it even further. Expect to see the tail of the bolts beefed up to the point there will be no issues. Myth - Bushmaster deleted a lug to use FAL mags. Another misunderstood area. Bushmaster never deleted the 6 o'clock lug. They simply shaved it down a very minimal amount. I have seen one bolt issue possibly relating to that shaved lug, and it was a minorly chipped lug that the author said did not effect function in any way. When I say chip, it was literally a minor chip. Reguardless, it is completely false that Bushmaster deleted a lug to allow proper feeding. Fact - Bushmaster thickened the tail of the bolt's when the problem became common. Fact - Rock River stated they are going to reinforce the bolts even more. The BAR10 did suffer some growing pains, and with the discontinuation, it appears it was done at Bushmaster's expense. Bushmaster had very high prices that resulted in little sales on a market that no longer suffers from high capacity magazine envy. I'm confident that RRA will cover any possible defects that happen, and they will adjust the design accordingly. Here is a picture of where the bolts really break, and the problem area is circled for anyone that cares.  The bolt tail issue should not be an issue any more. i29.photobucket.com/albums/c278/olds442tyguy/BushyBolt.jpg

Where did I ever mention anything about FAL mgas?  Where did I mention anything about bolt lugs?  I question some QC issues that RRA is having lately with their AR15 platform.  If they have problems there, it will creep over to their .308 line as well.  For the price RRA suggest for their .308, you can buy an AR10.  Below is abig QC concern.

If you go way back to one of the key selling points for the BAR-10 was the ability to use readily available  and inexpensive FAL mags.  Did not turn out to be such a great selling point did it?  What selling point do RRA have then?  Their name?  Did not work for Bushmaster.......

Quoted: 223Rem, No I haven't seen any pix of your RRA DEA feed ramps.  But, I have seen lots of RRA feed ramps and they are uniformly very well done.   If you don't like RRA why do you buy their stuff?   Phil

So, would you buy a rifle from a company that does this kind of work?  RRAs attempt at adding feedramps to certain uppers is a dismal ass-half way of doing it.  RRA does not do feedramp correctly.  They dremel them in.  What other company that offer feedramps dremels them in?  No, sorry that is just cutting corners.

The last time I purchases a RRA rifle was 2  year ago and everything was fine.  My first RRA rifle had a upper receiver was way out of spec.  Lots of people hear remember that whole fiasco.  As of three week now they have not return any of my correspondence about this matter.  Until RRA rectifies this issue, I not purchase any more RRA products.

I can tell you this right now, those ramps were NOT done by RRA.  Peddle your crap somewhere else.

Phil

Quoted: Holy fucking hijack batman!!!! anyway my co worker shoots a DPMS 18" for Silhouette that rifle drives tacks  shoots sub MOA out to 900 yrards  3/4 to 700 have sold many of the LR 308s all the feedback i have gotten is they drive tacks the plastic  magazines suck though also they will not extract 7.62x51mm most of the time but how often you gonna shoot surplus in a flat top Hbar  rifle

I don't know yours, but mine came with two steel magazines. Nice, reliable and sturdy


- Ice

Quoted: Quoted: I guess you have not seen the picture of the feedramps in one of my RRA DEA uppers? The RRA design is from Bushmaster.  And what did Bushmaster do with that line?  If Bushmaster could not make that platform work reliably, would do you think RRA can?  Bushmaster been at this game a bit longer than RRA.  The only thing RRA has going for it in that line is that some of their engineers once worked for ARmalite.  Unless RRA does something drastic to the design, I would put money on a DPMS first if there was a budget concern.  If budget was not an issue I would take the AR-10 anyday. Where did I ever mention anything about FAL mgas?  Where did I mention anything about bolt lugs?  I question some QC issues that RRA is having lately with their AR15 platform.  If they have problems there, it will creep over to their .308 line as well.  For the price RRA suggest for their .308, you can buy an AR10.  Below is abig QC concern. If you go way back to one of the key selling points for the BAR-10 was the ability to use readily available  and inexpensive FAL mags.  Did not turn out to be such a great selling point did it?  What selling point do RRA have then?  Their name?  Did not work for Bushmaster....... Quoted: 223Rem, No I haven't seen any pix of your RRA DEA feed ramps.  But, I have seen lots of RRA feed ramps and they are uniformly very well done.   If you don't like RRA why do you buy their stuff?   Phil www.hunt101.com/img/373463.JPG So, would you buy a rifle from a company that does this kind of work?  RRAs attempt at adding feedramps to certain uppers is a dismal ass-half way of doing it.  RRA does not do feedramp correctly.  They dremel them in.  What other company that offer feedramps dremels them in?  No, sorry that is just cutting corners. The last time I purchases a RRA rifle was 2  year ago and everything was fine.  My first RRA rifle had a upper receiver was way out of spec.  Lots of people hear remember that whole fiasco.  As of three week now they have not return any of my correspondence about this matter.  Until RRA rectifies this issue, I not purchase any more RRA products.

So if you don't think it's from FAL mags, what do you think is making the BAR10/LAR10 system unreliable? You say it won't work just because RRA is making it, but you also specifically said Bushmaster couldn't get it to function reliably either.

By the way, I've never seen RRA feed ramps that sloppy. That looks like a clean dremeling that some idiot messed with afterwards. In the one spot it even looks like someone messed it up on purpose. There's not a dremel in exsistance that could make a cut like that. I highly doubt RRA did that, but if they did they should take care of it.