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Posted: 2/11/2006 10:42:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Debate? What was the debate?? Its like comparing a corvette to a bmw. Sure, both have engines 4 wheels and doors but thats about it. They were designed for 2 completely different applications.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 10:44:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Well it is for me!
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:18:23 PM EDT
[#3]
Way more 6.8 available than 6.5 rifles. The Wolf thing is all you are basing the dominance of 6.5 on?
 Agree 6.8/6.5 are not competitors at all. 6.8 is for short barreled carbines. 6.5 is a long range round for precision shooting. Debate should be 5.56 vs 6.8 and .308 vs 6.5 That is where the real comparison is IMO. |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:19:14 PM EDT
[#4]
If the AR won't do it, I pick up my Garand. I'll wait a couple years for the dust to settle.
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:19:38 PM EDT
[#5]
+1 |
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:30:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Absolutely. In which case, both the current cartridges are head and shoulders above the others. 6.8 > 5.56 6.5 > .308 Who says progress is bad? 
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Posted: 2/11/2006 11:32:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Everything else, I agree! |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 1:45:08 AM EDT
[#8]
You can buy 3 boxes of plinker 6.5 for the cost of 2 boxes of plinker 6.8 this is true. However 6.5 is a long range round. When was the last time you heard of anyone doing target shooting with Wolf?
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Posted: 2/12/2006 1:46:17 AM EDT
[#9]
Wolf is match grade. Some of the best ammo out there, probably superior to Black Hills even..... |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 2:05:53 AM EDT
[#10]
Just because 6.5 is touted as a long range round doesn't mean I have to exclusively shoot targets at 1k+ yds.
 I bet 3moa is still good enough to ring steel at 2-300 yds. ETA: For my wants at close range it doesn't make sense to overpay on range ammo. When I'm able to get to longer ranges (which isn't too often anymore) obviously better performing ammo is gonna be the name of the game. For me this is just a more flexible tool and I don't have to go out and buy a whole brand new set up. Not bashing 6.8 by any means, I almost bought an upper, but wanted to wait until after shot to see what would be the new whiz-bang offerings. YMMV |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 3:47:21 AM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 2/12/2006 4:48:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Have you had/shot/studied the 6.8 SPC Ballistics? Other than a great Terminal Ballistics, it does not have much to offer over the 5.56. Since the exterior ballistics of the 6.8 SPC is similar to the 77 grn 5.56, it will never be adopted by the military. The only option is LEO if it even gets support by Remington. The 6.5 is the round that started off to be a competition ammo. Designed by Arne and Bill, the case was further finalized by Lapua engineers. It has a flatter trajectory(A whole lot more match bullet options being 6.5 based) and alloweings the use of heavier bullets. Since the 6.8 was design for the mil, and they dont want it, and the 6.5 was designed for the AR shooters. Guess which one is going to win at the end in the civillian world? And I have said many times now, Remington dropped the ball on support and develope the 6.8 to be a better more flexable ammo(Their last offering was a bolt rifle). But being .270 based simply took match style bullets out of the possibilities for the 6.8. And now Hornady is throwing in a new ammo for the 6.8 with a different primer puts even more doubt in the future of this round(Original not developed corrrectly?). There is no 6.5-6.8 debate. If you know your balistics and wants a flat shooting bullet with more bullet options(Hunting, target shooting, Long range match) in the AR platform, your best bet is the 6.5 Grendel. And if your looking for the best terminal ballistics in the shortest AR platform get the 6.8 SPC. Both are going to have expensive match grade ammo since neither will likely be adopted by any military to have surplus ammo on the market any time soon. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 4:59:35 AM EDT
[#13]
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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:03:37 AM EDT
[#14]
Match grade if you compare it to a shotgun..... |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:23:56 AM EDT
[#15]
Just realize.........Wolf isn't a single ammo plant , its several russian/east european ammo companies formed into one large entity. Wolf's 22 ammo ( which is made in germany) is routinely touted as the world's best match 22 ammo. After seeing comp shooters use wolf over ammo made by laupua and other well known companies , i became a believer too.
As for 6.5 vs 6.8........... Personally , i'd like 6.8 over 6.5 , but i'll buy whichever one is easier to pick up at the local gun store. I've been seeing alot more 6.8 here recently , but if wolf starts selling 6.5 in large volumes , i'll get a 6.5 , granted that i can actually find a 6.5 upper. If model 1 sales , or JTD started offering 6.5 uppers , i'd have one shortly. (expecially if i could get one in 18" SPR) |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:25:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Did Armalite ever announce that they would make a 6.5?
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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:28:19 AM EDT
[#17]
I've seen 6.8mm Remington bolt guns and 6.8mm ammo sitting on a gunshop shelf. I've never seen a 6.5mm anything in a gunshop.
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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:34:09 AM EDT
[#18]
Thats true. The 6.8 is more available to the public in local store while Alexander arms seems to be represented by fewer vendors. but I think once you get into the match ammo stuff, most of the stuff will be ordered regardless. But seriously, what in the hell is the 6.8 SPC bolt gun good for other than just to have one. The limit of both of these round is the AR15 magazine OAL, not that there isnt a round to fill the intended purpose on the market. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:34:31 AM EDT
[#19]
Also, the 9mm vs 45acp debate has ended. 9mm is the winner.
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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:35:57 AM EDT
[#20]
+5.56 million |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 5:47:51 AM EDT
[#21]
And this distinction is predicated on existing bullets. New bullets come in all the time, and it wouldn't take much to design a 6.5 mm bullet that would match or exceed the 6.8's much-hyped terminal ballistics advantage. Hell, I would bet that Hornady's 6.5 mm, 95 grain V-Max, witha .365 BC would easily match the ballistic gel performance of anything 6.8. I agree with VB. The 6.8 is rapidly becoming a has been. Most civilian shooters could care less about CQB or what the Army uses. They want excellent ballistics coupled with good availability. The Grendel already has the ballistics race won hands down. And it looks like it's well on its way to crush the SPC on the logistics side as well. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:12:26 AM EDT
[#22]
People treat these rounds like they are as different as night and day. In reality, there will perform very similarly. 0.3mm is hardly perceptible, and at realistic ranges they will have about the same amount of drop. I did a point blank range analysis a few years ago, and the Grendel outranged the 6.8 by only 7%. The only difference between these two cartridges is that the Grendel is a flatter shooting cartridge at ranges that most people can not and should not shoot.
IMHO, the jury is still out on both cartridges. I think you are suddenly seeing more activity with the Grendel because Alexander Arms unwisely restricted licensing. He made the rifles he wanted, not what most AR shooters wanted. Now that he is licensing some more customer-oriented businesses to produce rifles, it is natural for there to be pent up demand. Grendel shooters are finally able to get what they want, which SPC shooters have been doing for years. Now that rifles and ammo will be available for both cartridges, we should see in the next few years which one of these will succeed like the 243, and which will be marginalized like the 6mm Rem. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:13:10 AM EDT
[#23]
If the above be true, and I believe it is, then we're back to what I've always believed: 5.56, 7.62 and .50 are what we need. BUT, we do need a better mix of the 5.56 and 7.62 calibers. 5sub |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:18:53 AM EDT
[#24]
+1, but I have an M1A, close enough for me... If neither of them do it, it's probably due to range, and there I'll use my 700P... |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:24:06 AM EDT
[#25]
They ARE as different as night and day. The 6.5 Grendel loads have some of the best BC of ANY bullet on the market in ANY caliber. Its supersonic past 1200 yards. Yeah, I guess there similiar in the sense they both get shot out of a gun, they both have a bullet, powder, primer and a shell casing. But the comparisons end about there. Might as well compare .243 to 30-06 and say "Gee whiz, there the same cause at 100 yards they both do sub MOA" |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:38:01 AM EDT
[#26]
Tag
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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:39:46 AM EDT
[#27]
i just hope someone comes out with an upper that doesnt cost more than a new bolt rifle. it doesnt make sense to pay $700 for an upper when i can get a remington 700 in 7mm rem. mag for about $ 200 less.
dont get me wrong i want on bad im just not ready to shell the big cash on my budget. it sucks yo broke all the time 
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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:43:26 AM EDT
[#28]
Expensive, exclusive long barreled uppers with available ammo VS. wide variety moderate expense uppers with limited ammo availability and configuration issues.
Sounds to me like the debate is only really now just heating up. Gonna take a few years for the dust to settle. At least the mags are cross compatible, and the only real working ones so far that anyone has in hand are 6.8 marketed. Oh, and the Betamax comparison=The Beta system was technically a better system, provided higher fidelity audio and video encoding with longer tape times and a smaller package. It suffered from exclusivity (Sony wouldn't license it's format to anyone else to produce). Sound like the Grendel? Oh, and to the poster that said who really cares what the .mil is using? A huge segment of the black rifle purchasing population does. If they did not, then how do you explain the overwhelming sales of "mil spec" equipment? I guess you'd have to be in a retail position to really know, and I am. Can't keep the stuff in stock! I own one of each, and I think that there's a place for both. Tom 
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Posted: 2/12/2006 6:57:54 AM EDT
[#29]
You must have missed the Sabre Defence and DPMS uppers with less than 20" barrels. I bet they all come in at under $600. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:01:06 AM EDT
[#30]
I was thinking the same thing, seems word is not out yet on Sabre Defence's 14.5" and 16" 6.5 Grendel uppers/rifles, high cap mags, and that Wolf is not a Russian company.
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:07:57 AM EDT
[#31]
Because "mil spec" is supposedly associated with higher quality....more "toughness" if you will. I'm sure that a civvie unit with higher then mil spec QC that didnt wear a "mil spec" nametag would not outsell a similiar product that wore the "mil spec" nametag however. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:08:25 AM EDT
[#32]
Shockergd wrote: "Just realize.........Wolf isn't a single ammo plant , its several russian/east european ammo companies formed into one large entity. Wolf's 22 ammo ( which is made in germany) is routinely touted as the world's best match 22 ammo. After seeing comp shooters use wolf over ammo made by laupua and other well known companies , i became a believer too. "
This is an excellent point. Wolf 12 Gauge Clear hull Shotgun slugs ARE NOT RUSSIAN. Rather, they are made in Germany and are of EXCELLENT quality. Those who dismiss all Wolf products as "cheap Russian junk" are ignorant of the current reality. Moreover, Wolf's NEW coating technology make is run in every AR type rifle I have tried it in. If you had problems with this brand in the past, have you tried Wolf lately? |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:08:52 AM EDT
[#33]
You guys need to keep up on things. He's not talking about the usual crap steel-cased Wolf stuff. He is talking about the new match grade Prvi Partisan ammo marketed under the Wolf "Gold" name. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:14:50 AM EDT
[#34]
I agree, the debate is coming to an end.
CMMG is releasing a mid-length, chrome-lined 6.8mm SPC upper. I plan to order one as soon as its available. If they release one with a barrel length of 10"-12" I'll buy one of those, too. I'd prefer the SBR upper, but oh well. The constant frothing of the rabid Grendel crowd did more to turn me off than its poor terminal ballistics. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:23:12 AM EDT
[#35]
Poor terminal ballistics?? Well, thats an interesting statement for a 6.5 caliber....... |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:24:44 AM EDT
[#36]
I was gonna buy a 6.5 Grendel upper and throw it in the safe with my 6.8 upper and let them fight to the death to see who the real winner is. I don't think 6.8 is dead just yet, but I could be wrong.
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:27:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Better they be kept in the safe to fight it out, rather then outside the safe where innocent children could get hurt.....
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:40:02 AM EDT
[#38]
I bet you would not want to get shot with a 6.5 anything at any distance. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:42:13 AM EDT
[#39]
Did anyone other than Remington have any 6.8 SPC factory loaded ammo, of any grade, on display at SHOT? God knows they've had almsot two years to get off the pot.
Did anyone have any true, match grade 6.8 SPC on display? Before you say Remington, Remington makes nothing close to match grade when it comes to ammo. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:51:03 AM EDT
[#40]
Here is a quote by Arne Brennan of Competition Shooting Sports taken for the forums at 65grendel.com:
Day one of SHOT is drawing to a close. The Grendel is all over many booths getting a lot of exposure. I can tell you the Tactical 16 uppers will have a street price of $580.00. The Sabre rifles run from a base MSRP of $1559 up to $2280. All sport a hard chrome lined chrome moly 14.5" barrel. They have an optional muzzle brake as well. We told you there was going to be a lot happening, hope you guys like what you are seeing, The 6.5 Grendel is now offered in AR's by Alexander Arms Competition Shooting Sports Sabre Defense DPMS Who knows, Armalite may come on the list (did I say that),,, Lets not forget, y'all now have 25 round magazines and Wolf Ammo will be here just in time for letting loose this summer. Independant reports (other then Wolf) have told me that the company actually making the brass for Wolf turns out an impressive product that exceeds the quality of what Winchester turns out. If Wolf loaded ammo sells for 25 cents a round, maybe we might have brass at 10-12 cents a piece... should make the highpower shooters happy to have a cartridge that can shoot 600 yards with ease with brass at the same price as WW .223... 2006,,, the year of the Grendel Time for Bill and I to get a Guiness or two or three. As we head off to the pub, I want to thank every one of you because as much as Bill and I have worked on this, what is happening today is a result of the support and enthusiasm y'all have shown and it is appreciated. I think AA did an outstanding job taking taking their time and doing things right so that there is now going to be quality mags and ammo available along with quality uppers. I have no dooubt that the 6.5 overtake the 6.8 in popularity in the next few years. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:52:32 AM EDT
[#41]
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Posted: 2/12/2006 7:59:41 AM EDT
[#42]
It would be nice to see that happen. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 8:04:23 AM EDT
[#43]
I bet you couldn't possibly come up with a more lame argument. I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of a .22LR or a rock at any distance. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 8:04:51 AM EDT
[#44]
Both are dead.
5.56 remains the victor, hurrah! |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 8:09:08 AM EDT
[#45]
Arne just confirmed Armalite is the next Grendel-manufacturer...
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Posted: 2/12/2006 8:11:28 AM EDT
[#46]
About as lame as claiming the terminal ballistics of any 6.5 mm cartridge are poor. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 8:12:47 AM EDT
[#47]
The ammo is already out at SHOT. Why is it so hard to believe that it IS happening? |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 8:30:55 AM EDT
[#48]
With the ballistics of the current available .270 bullets that will fit in to the 6.8 SPC OAL and have decent velocity does not exist so far. Which is the reason I sold the 6.8 SPC and will move on to the 6.5 for a true 1k range ar. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 8:30:56 AM EDT
[#49]
Perhaps I worded it wrong, or wasn't clear enough. Armalite coming on board, and Wolf readily available at 25 cents a round would be nice to see happen. I had no intention of stirring any sh-t. Remmy has had 6.8SPC ammo at SHOT too. |
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Posted: 2/12/2006 8:36:08 AM EDT
[#50]
I for one am glad to see the 6.5 Grendel doing well at the Shot Show. Will I go out and buy one to replace my 6.8 SPC probably not but as others have pointed out there is enough room in the market for both cartridges. Only with the test of time will we find out how well they are going to preform in the field and sales will reflect that. Buy the one you like the best, either one will serve you well IMO.
Joe |
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