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Posted: 2/4/2006 2:55:16 PM EDT
[#1]
As for Suing you, I called my lawyer but I don't have your name and Address. J/K
 How can it be safe if all one has to do is pull the trigger, sorry if I offend you but you have to be a retard to think that. To answer your question, yes it will bend over time. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 3:13:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Springs wear from use, not being static. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 3:16:40 PM EDT
[#3]
I wouldn't worry about it... But for ease of mind and for what little it costs, just replace the spring once a year...
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Posted: 2/4/2006 3:18:22 PM EDT
[#4]
Answer: 1) Saftey Selector 2) Finger Off Trigger 3) Brain Engaged 4) No Kids Since the first rule of firearm handling is "ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED", the only way to REALLY believe that is for it to be true ALL the time. When you are at someones house and you see them pointing a barrel every which way... they don't BELIEVE... and they are always the ones putting an AD thru a friend or a loved one. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 3:25:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Thanks... that's what I thought. Like mag springs lasting forever.
Thanks. I'll do that too. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:06:53 PM EDT
[#6]
i believe in the military, they leave chamber unloaded. So you have to pull the chargeing handle, then bang bang.
in a combat situation, it will be chamber loaded. chamber loaded isn't exactly safer. Some guns would be more dangerous in this situation. Glocks come to mind. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:21:16 PM EDT
[#7]
As easy as it is to rack an AR, I don't keep one in the chamber
Loaded?.............Yes Chambered?............Not until I'm prepared to pull the trigger |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:34:38 PM EDT
[#8]
What redfisher means is that he carries it in a method known as "Patrol Carry"; LEOs should know this, is the way all patrol officers carry their long guns, such as a shotgun or a rifle/carbine.
It means a loaded magazine in the weapon, but no rounds in the chamber and the weapon is on SAFE. I personally have both my AR and my Mossy shotgun in "Patrol Carry"; loaded but no brass in the chamber. The only weapon I keep a round in the chamber is my Sig P226, which I keep on the nightstand. Besides, there's nothing more fun than sneaking up on a burglar at 2am inside your house, then rack the shotgun. He'll have your undivided attention. 
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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:42:05 PM EDT
[#9]
In my home all guns are unloaded besides one. My mags are always ready to go. When I carry my H&K USP a round is chambered and de-cocked. But however you want to do it is up to you.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:43:10 PM EDT
[#10]
I would agree... in the daytime, standing up, after coffee and breakfast. But what about out of a sound sleep, in the dark, under extreme stress and adrenaline? |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:48:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Here's how I do it (not that it's right, it's just how I always do it): All my pistols are always loaded with one in the chamber. All the pistols not in my immediate control are locked away. All my long guns are loaded, with nothing in the chamber -- "patrol carry" as redfisher put it.
Whatever you do, I recommend you have a uniform system, so that you always know what condition the gun is that you pick up. I'd hate to really need a gun and then have to think about what condition it is because of the day of the week, if it's a holiday, time of day, what color the gun is, where it is in the house, etc. I'm single, live alone, and have no kids -- so I have a lot more flexibility when it comes to this however, and those who have to consider others may need to do something different. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 4:56:18 PM EDT
[#12]
+1 ABSOLUTELY! Be consistent. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:38:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Is this implying that there's a "glock error" out there. You know that glocks go off by themself when a round is chambered. Show me an unintentional discharge and I'll show you an idiot behind the trigger. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:41:26 PM EDT
[#14]
1.) Its also called Isaeli carry as this is what they do 2.) The racking shotgun is such BS its not even funny. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:50:43 PM EDT
[#15]
Correction on the LEO patrol carry, the "shotgun ready carry" is a useful method as the gun is being transported in the patrol vehicle, the gun would have the magazine loaded, empty chamber, safety engaged and finally the shotgun locked in the rack. Upon exiting the vehicle the officer is trained to load the chamber, not wait until a use of force situation would arise. Further any other long gun carry be it the sniper weapons or entry weapons are all loaded and ready to go, no safety's on period.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:51:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Correction on the above reply the shotguns action would also be closed.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:53:55 PM EDT
[#17]
I've never heard the term patrol carry, but that is exactly how I keep my AR when I keep it bedside. Empty chamber, Loaded mag, safety on. Cool I learned something new today
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Posted: 2/4/2006 6:58:07 PM EDT
[#18]
Evedently you havnt handled many automatic weapons, have you? |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:02:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Well I have and also have been a sub-gun instructor for MP-5's and M-16's the first rule has always been keep your fingers off the triggers. We've had full auto in our department for over ten years without any unintentional discharges. Anything less would be unacceptable. Training, training, training.
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:04:38 PM EDT
[#20]
That also includes a transition from revolvers to Glocks in the early 90's without any errors. We did have a round fired in the safety barrel of our locker room. (Officer forgot to remove the mag before clearing the weapon)
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:11:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Wouldn't it really suck if one night you would wake up to find some crack head standing at the foot of your bed holding a knife? Would you say, Please wait mr.crackhead, Don't attack me yet as I need to first gather my thoughts and then chamber a round to defend my self... The time it takes to chamber a round could make the difference in you living or dieing... It would be a different story though if your AR was "hot" or you have a side arm with one in the chamber sitting on the night stand next to you... Now with that said... I keep my AR bedside, empty chamber, hammer dropped, loaded mag, safety off. I do though have a Berreta .40 with one in the chamber, 10 in the mag, sitting approximately 18 inches away from where I'm laying... |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:13:55 PM EDT
[#22]
There's always malfunction, malfunction, malfunction too, and it doesn't necessarily have to be user error... ETA: I have to add... ALL of the malfunctions Ive seen and encountered happened while loading the gun, not unloading... |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:15:12 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm fairly certain that between ADT and the dog I'd have time to pull the charging handle  .
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:17:55 PM EDT
[#24]
Maybe it's just me... but my 2 AR's can't be set to SAFE unless the hammer is back??? (loaded, chambered or not)......???
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:18:37 PM EDT
[#25]
Ahhh, hidden details... I see your point...
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:18:40 PM EDT
[#26]
So you are saying every loaded double action revolver is dangerous? They have been around for a long time and haven't been proven more dangerous than any other firearm. If you accept that, how is any loaded firearm dangerous. Given that no unauthorized users are present. I say any unloaded firearm is dangerous. When you need it the most it will be worthless and you will be dead. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:21:51 PM EDT
[#27]
That's the way those cookies crumble... Unless, you are using one of the early JARD triggers where the safety didn't care where the hammer was... |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 7:57:13 PM EDT
[#29]
just curious... how many armed confrontations have you been in with the shotgun as your primary weapon? |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 9:38:40 PM EDT
[#30]
What are you saying Elmo? Glocks are more dangerous with a round in the chamber than without? Are you inferring that somehow Glocks go off by themselves more? I wish you'd find out exactly how Glocks work so you wouldn't make these stupid comments. But then again, you live in CA and I doubt you will be able to find anyone who doesn't already believe they are evil to begin with. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 9:46:14 PM EDT
[#31]
BTW, thanegrooms, there is NO such thing as stupid questions... Just stupid MISTAKES!
That oughta be the official motto of this board! |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 10:21:22 PM EDT
[#32]
I think a big part of the rumors about Glocks and UDs came from back in the early 80s when a glut of LE and special gov teams were running around butt silly about getting the pistol. The Glock LEAP price was 176.00 iirc and that was divided over four or six months of your pay (I didn't get one, I carried a Combat Commander)... the shows that the guys from Glock would put on were amazing and literally overnight it seemed that there was a Glock in nearly every holster that you saw. The number of unitentional discharges also went up quite a bit with a lot of agencies... probably lots of reasons to be honest: The auto pistol was new to a lot of guys, it had no manual external safety and the trigger on the early ones was pretty light... also, there was a big push to get a lot of guys qualified with the new gun quickly, thus more handling and larger classes. I saw one pretty nasty UD in the filed where a guy reholstered and apparently had the tip of his finger still on the trigger... put a pretty nasty freaking wound in his right thigh I tell you... Anyway, legends take on a life of their own... look at all the crap that still flies around about the M16... but there was a lot of talk with LEOs back then that the TupperGun shooters had more UDs, if that is statistically true or not does not matter, the stories were good and locker room pictures of woulds like that one guy's hip really make them take life. |
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Posted: 2/4/2006 10:29:18 PM EDT
[#33]
1.)Rack your AR's charging handle 2.)Set safety to SAFE 3.)Insert magazine |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 5:28:25 AM EDT
[#34]
Same here three large german shephards that can hear an ant crawl across my driveway, also my RRA can't engage the safty unless the hammer is coked, don't know about others. |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 5:41:36 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
i believe in the military, they leave chamber unloaded. So you have to pull the chargeing handle, then bang bang. The Spanish MPs, while on duty, carry with safety off, no round in the chamber, and the first 2 rounds are blacks. Those Anti-gun europeans really go to great lengths to skirt the effectiveness of a weapon! |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 7:01:52 AM EDT
[#36]
There's always malfunction, malfunction, malfunction too, and it doesn't necessarily have to be user error... ETA: I have to add... ALL of the malfunctions Ive seen and encountered happened while loading the gun, not unloading... I'm not sure of your intention with the word "malfunction" if you are implying the unintentional discharge of the weapon (thats the term we train with). I always ask people how did the gun go off, if the answer was my finger slipped on the trigger, isn't that how the firearm was designed in the first place. The shooter must maintain discipline and keep his/her finger from the trigger until "the sights are on the target and you have decided to fire." When covering a suspect my sights are on the target possibly in the high ready / universal cover mode, but my finger is never on the trigger. The safest way to load or unload the weapon is called the administrative load or unload. First lets look at a safety check of the pistol 1) follow the cardinal rules of safety, then remove the magazine from the firearm, thuis taking away the ammunition source. 2) Utilizing either the hand over or pinch method rack the slide, this clears the chamber providing the extracor is functioning properly. 3)Lock the slide back 4)Visually and physically check the chamber and mag well, look down both areas and using a finger check both areas for the presence of a round. This check should be conducted everytime you pick up a firearm. Even if its been checked and unattended then re-picked up it should be re-checked. Only by strict adherence to safety can we take classes of untrained cadets and keep ourselves off cnn, while training these people to be the law enforcement of tomorrow. |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 7:01:55 AM EDT
[#37]
Are you saying mag in weapon, round chambered, safety off? Because if you ask me, that is unsafe as hell. I've found through personal experience that in a tactical movement situation, things snag, including triggers. I've always been trained to carry chamber loaded, safety on, especially with an AR. After all, with the great ergonomics, bringing the weapon up and sweeping the safety off is easily accomplished with one motion. In a dynamic entry situation especially, I wouldn't want to enter safety off in fear of somehow plugging the man in front of me. Is that likely with good trigger discipline? No, but Murphy is alive and well and you never know what you might run into, bump into, snag on, etc. Disregard all that if you meant chamber empty, btw. |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 7:15:13 AM EDT
[#38]
Yes I'm saying chamber loaded safety off. I don't believe a law enforcement weapon should have a safety in the first place. That situation murphys law I do understand and that why the officers have to practice muzzle discipline. Muzzles must be down, but more importantly fingers must be off the triggers. I've been training officers and cadets for about 12 years my partner/senior instructor about 25 which his service included the DEA as an agent/firearms instructor. The most dangerous thing I've ever seen on the range/once on the street was a safety engaged and the officer panicking and the officer attempting a phase one malfunction clearance drill (tap/rack/ready). When its time to shoot the mind doesn't say "OH THE SAFETY MUST BE ON." In the case with the officer on the street he was attempting to taser an individual who was combative. He kept pulling the trigger an nothing while being assaulted. After the situation was done they (police) discovered the safety was on the taser. The patrolman's issue weapon was a glock which has no external safety to contend with. Under stress he couldn't remember to take it off.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 7:35:13 AM EDT
[#39]
There are other weapons out there other than the ones your familiar with in law enforcement... Rim fire guns are notorious for malfunctions that are called slam fires... Beretta is one manufacturer that addresses this issue with their barrel break open action that allows the first round to not have to be 'slammed home' to be chambered...
Other possibilities that can occur and have happened with the centerfire cartridge, and that includes AR's, is that the ammo has a high primer, a soft primer or the gun has a stuck or petruding firing pin... These are all gun malfunctions, not an idiot using the gun... All the training in the world isn't going to prevent a gun malfunction and your finger activating the trigger and causing an accidental discharge isn't considered a malfunction, that is considered user error... There is even a devices that you can buy that is used during chambering and clearing a round... I cant remember what the name of it is but its just some type of can that you would point the muzzle into while loading and unloading and its purpose is to catch a spent round in case of a malfunction or accidental discharge... |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 7:40:44 AM EDT
[#40]
I was always a firm believer that a self-defense weapon without a round readily accessible is about as useful as a paperweight. Remember the old quote: "The only thing worse than an unloaded gun going bang is a loaded gun going click". Yeah, I know I butchered the quote some, but you get the general idea. |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 8:05:57 AM EDT
[#41]
Theshootersden I understand your point of malfunctions upon chambering thats why the firearm must be pointed in a safe direction that can your referring to is a snail drum/fire barrel/test barrel ect. All guns should be loaded in a safe direction in the first place just in case one of the aforementioned malfunctions occurre. I'm not referring to any of those I'm tasking about the good old fashioned trigger on finger "oh shit" it went off by itself problems which make up the majority of un intentional discharges. Don't believe it read any case study from a department which transitioned from revolvers to semi-auto pistols. Old-timers who kept their fingers poised on the triggers are the firearms instructors nightmares. These guys refuse to let go of an unsafe practice.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 8:08:02 AM EDT
[#42]
I'm sure you are talking about range shooting... 'cuz in a home defense situation it would play out like this: 1) Rack your AR..... Intruder get's off first round in a panic and misses you. 2) Set to SAFE.... He's figured out where you are and takes aim. 3) Insert Magazine... That last noise makes him certain he's got you where he wants and unloads. It's just painfully clear that anyone who thinks chambered rounds are too dangerous, doesn't know why they own a defensive weapon and should just go get a refund. |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 8:08:28 AM EDT
[#43]
If you haven't figured it out yet I'm a believer that the defense weapon also has to be loaded and ready. Ask yourself the question everytime the dig barks to get you up do you quickly load your weapon if the answer is no, you'll probably never be ready for that confronation and thus never be the subject in the armed citizen.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 8:15:21 AM EDT
[#44]
In "the field" (when my squad was actually out looking for trouble) we all carried with a round in the chamber, weapon on safe. It's a very smooth transition to bring your weapon from low ready to engaging while flipping the safety to semi. Our disearms (Glock 19's) were always carried with a round chambered and the magazine topped off. On the street, during leave/ off duty time, sidearms were still carried in the same way and rifles were carried with the magazine out of the weapon, bungee-corded to the buffer tube or handguards. The weapon was not cocked or on safe. It was personal preference, but some of us carried an extra magazine on our belts. This was in Israel, by the way.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 8:15:55 AM EDT
[#45]
Heres the device I was refering to, its called a gun clearing trap...
It will easily fits on a tabletop or can be mounted to the wall. 13" x 11" x 19" Size. 
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Posted: 2/5/2006 10:44:10 AM EDT
[#46]
"guns are loaded, with nothing in the chamber"
This is a contradiction in terms, as no weapon is loaded until there is a round in the chamber. |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 11:24:37 AM EDT
[#47]
Those gun claering traps are nice to have but can be made for a lot less. Take a small barrel 25-35 gallon capacity mount it on a steel frame, fill partially with sand. Get a used cheap bullet-proof vest place in the middle, fill the rest of the way with sand and you have a cheap weapons clearing station that will take many discharges and is no maintenance. A smaller version can be made with a five gallon bucket.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 11:32:25 AM EDT
[#48]
Bolt held by bolt catch, safety on "safe." Pick up, slap the catch, flip the switch, pull the trigger.
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Posted: 2/5/2006 12:02:56 PM EDT
[#49]
Yes, but now you have 2 springs compressed (buffer spring, and hammer spring)... I'm going to stick with safe on and chambered (hammer spring compressed). |
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Posted: 2/5/2006 12:07:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Thats exactly the way a defense weapon should be...
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