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Posted: 12/25/2005 6:32:45 PM EDT
What's the general consensus on the 11.5" uppers cycling reliably. I might have a deal on a bushmaster 11.5" but don't want to go through the hassle if they are nothing but problems. Any input from anyone with experience would be useful.
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Posted: 12/25/2005 6:42:57 PM EDT
[#1]
they run fine with a suppressor... or course you really want a suppresor with one too.
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Posted: 12/25/2005 6:46:26 PM EDT
[#2]
I have one on my patrol carbine. Bushmaster's 11.5" run just fine.
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Posted: 12/25/2005 6:46:26 PM EDT
[#3]
One of my 14.5s atrted out life as an 11.5.It was in that configuration from 92 to 97 before it got rebarrelled.
In that time I never had a problem in function and cycling.You could see the muzzle blast in the day light and a hell of a shock when standing next to it while some one shoots..but no cycling problems. I like the 11.5 but would only get one again if I could make it a true SBR thats when the ultra compact advantage is seen. |
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Posted: 12/25/2005 7:58:37 PM EDT
[#4]
I have a 11.5" 1/7 BM H, bbl (fluted) on my pistol and it runs fine with or with out my Noveske FS. I wouldn't put it off. If that's what you want then get it. They seem to run fine. Mine has never ever had a fte or ftf. It has been 100% even with the "Wolf" stuff.
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Posted: 12/25/2005 8:22:36 PM EDT
[#5]
I've heard good things about the Bushy's..
If you are not dead set on it... Maybe look into CMMG. I was told flat out that their uppers "just run" with any lower setup. That was enough to sell me on the 10.5" I got. Now.. if this is an unbeatable deal, what are you waiting for??? |
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Posted: 12/25/2005 9:29:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Mine is not a Bushmaster but it works just fine. No problems as of yet.
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Posted: 12/25/2005 11:42:52 PM EDT
[#7]
Perfect!! I'm definetely gunna buy it then.
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Posted: 12/26/2005 2:09:05 AM EDT
[#8]
You'll like it. My 11.5/5.5 is my favorite carbine. Only reason I built it was because I liked the short barrel/long FS look they have. They are louder, or seem to me they are, and make a nice fireball that is very visible even in daylight.
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Posted: 12/26/2005 2:29:01 AM EDT
[#9]
it's the stubbies (10") that have problems.
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Posted: 12/26/2005 2:32:56 AM EDT
[#10]
Yes...I bought one before my deployment and it has served me fine. Now it's in the hands of one of my teammates since I got my L-W 10.5. He loves it too.
John ETA: ...the L-W rocks!!! |
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Posted: 12/26/2005 3:48:26 AM EDT
[#11]
I guess I'll be the dissenting voice...there's one in every crowd. The 11.5 produces less velocity, is louder and produces more flash that the 14.5 However, the overall length is still going to be 16". If looks are the primary issue, then heck yeah, go for it. If function is more important, I like the 14.5. The 11.5 has more potential to be less forgiving than the 14.5.
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Posted: 12/26/2005 3:53:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Where can I find a 11.5" barrel with 1:10 or 1:12 twist?
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Posted: 12/26/2005 5:38:21 AM EDT
[#13]
Look for a M16A1 barrel and have it cut down at ADCO.
then try this sight www.isayeret and see what the israelis use that barrel legnth for ..it will surprise you.
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Posted: 12/26/2005 5:51:56 AM EDT
[#14]
Ive got one on my M16... I have zero problems.
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Posted: 12/26/2005 6:54:58 AM EDT
[#15]
Pun:
What do the Iraelis use (I don't want to pay $9.95/month to access the information) - length and twist? Thanks |
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Posted: 12/26/2005 7:20:03 AM EDT
[#16]
One of my Colt A1 11.5s is prone to dropped extraction, but runs 100% with a D ring. The other one doesn't need the ring. I run mine on 16s with standard A1 flashiders. My understanding is that a suppressor/moderator would increase time under pressurization such that extraction would be more reliable.
Sam |
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Posted: 12/26/2005 7:28:12 AM EDT
[#17]
Anyone run an 11.5" Model 1 Sales upper with the A2 flash suppressor? Any comments?
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Posted: 12/26/2005 7:42:58 AM EDT
[#18]
My 10.5 pistol works with a car lemgth buffer pistol tube, so 11.5 will work all day long. Just do not use a heavy spring.
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Posted: 12/27/2005 12:31:24 AM EDT
[#19]
An 11.5" barrel is a MUCH better setup than a 10.5" if both are built with the carbine length gas system.
We try to keep at least 5" of barrel out in front of the gas port for reliability with the full range of available ammo. The further under 5" you get, the barrels can sometimes get finicky about what ammo it likes. The picture below shows a carbine-located gas port with dimensions to a 10.5" muzzle and an 11.5" muzzle. 
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Posted: 12/27/2005 12:33:24 AM EDT
[#20]
I can make you one... |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 5:58:24 AM EDT
[#21]
I've built a couple Model 1 Sales 11.5 inch upper ARs. One as a pistol, and one for an M16A2 conversion. Neither one had any issues.
  I also got the first upper within 24 hours of ordering; the second took almost two days. |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 6:29:51 AM EDT
[#22]
Thanks ... |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 6:44:11 AM EDT
[#23]
3-4 Cav:
What do you use for buffer (weight)? Standard Carbine? Thanks |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 1:12:55 PM EDT
[#24]
 not possible, the OD of the barrel at the 6.75" dimension is too small to take even the older FSBs.
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Posted: 12/27/2005 2:41:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Working 16yr next month with my Bushmaster 11.5", runs fine, suppressor or not. Suppressor just adds more to the cool factor. You should see people grabbing "ears" when I get ready to fire with the suppressor out front. It's the extra debris that comes back into the upper that dirty up the rifle and start causing problems, not the fault of the 11.5". A little more oil and carry on. Mobil-1 works wonders in this dept. |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 3:03:23 PM EDT
[#26]
As I understand it, many of the reliability issues are results of the higher operating pressures of the short gas system. So that shouldn't be any differant than shorty 14.5's, some of the critical parts will wear out and need replacing every 7,000-10,000 rds or so, others will last longer. Most people, starting with a new gun, would never put enough high pressure rounds through it to need to replace anything. I say high pressure because I would speculate that SAAMI stuff and wolf wouldn't wear as quickly, due to their lower cartridge pressures.
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Posted: 12/27/2005 4:28:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Anybody who does enough research is going to find out both 10.5"'s and 11.5"'s can have problems. They are a compromise, short and handy but they require a watchful eye to be reliable. Personally I have not had a single problem with my 10.5", but I took the time to research the proper set-up and do meticulous preventative maintenance and cleaning to mine. Short-barreled AR’s are much like a high end 1911. They can provide perfect performance and reliability, but it takes more work from the end user. If your not willing to go the extra mile to run a shorty, you would be better off sticking to a 16" barrel.
After having fired thousands of rounds from my 10.5” with absolutely zero problems I suggest this set-up: (1.) Heavy duty extractor spring - Change it out every 4-5 thousand rounds (2.) Crane o-ring or D-fender. (I run Crane o-rings from Adco) (3.) H2 buffer or H buffer at the very least. (I run a LMT H2 from G&R Tactical) (4.) One-piece gas rings – I do not use this mod personally, but Crane runs them in their CQBR. I bought a set but have not installed them yet. So far mine runs 100% reliable without them but if your having a problem it might help. Brownells has them in stock. (5.) Extreme cleanliness and attention to lubrication. A 10.5” and 11.5” require more than just a regular AR cleaning session to be reliable. During a recent class I would relube mine whenever the bolt/carrier dried out. It ran like a champ throughout the entire class. (6.) Extractor - Nothing fancy, but you need to keep a careful eye on it. If it gets worn, replace it. (7) USGI w/MagPul follower or HK mags – Same as any AR (8.) Quality ammo - Same as any AR |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 5:02:09 PM EDT
[#28]
Wow, sounds like a "prima donna" rifle.
Aside from the barrel twist - would 30-40gr bullets make a difference? Thanks |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 5:43:29 PM EDT
[#29]
 You lost me. |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 5:53:12 PM EDT
[#30]
So,you guys are saying I can't cut my 16" SP-1 barrel down to 11.5"?
Clint |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 6:05:04 PM EDT
[#31]
They're saying you can cut it down if you want, but without a custom gas block you'll have made your rifle into a single shot. Hey, you could always sell it as a California-legal AR! :) |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 6:09:26 PM EDT
[#32]
Thats why I moved the gas port out an extra inch
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Posted: 12/27/2005 6:32:17 PM EDT
[#33]
Details man, details... Did you move pistol out 1" or carbine? If you have Pistol+1" gas tubes, I gots to have me some of those... Source me some parts. |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 6:45:25 PM EDT
[#34]
11.5" SBR, with the gas port moved 1" forward. Fine tuning the port size now, for the can to go on the end(also woking well with a KFH from K-VAR). |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:00:29 PM EDT
[#35]
So you are going half way between carbine and mid-length on an 11.5"? Maybe I mis-understand and you are going 1" shorter than carbine? Reference carbine and mid-length gas ports on the drawing below. Dims snapped from carbine to 10.5" and 11.5" cut lengths. You don't mind only having 2.7" of barrel out there? I guess the Krink or the can makes up for it huh? Damn I wish we could have cans here in CA...
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:13:16 PM EDT
[#36]
You lost me there. I thought the gas port was located under the FSB? If so,I would still have at least 2" of barrel in front of the gas port. Why would I need a custom gas block? 
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:16:16 PM EDT
[#37]
bigbore, why not run a 12.5 with a midlength port?
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:17:39 PM EDT
[#38]
Someone made a bad assumption that your 16" SP-1 was originally a 20" configured barrel that was shortened to 16". If you were to cut that critter back to 11.5", the front sight base would fall off and the barrel between the FSB and chamber is too small to put a gas block on. As you probably have a CAR SP-1, you can surely cut it back to 11.5". You will just need to open up the gas port to the appropriate size. |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:20:58 PM EDT
[#39]
Thats the point I stick something on the end. An 11.5" barrel with nothing but a flash hider is no joy. I have been able to close the gas port 17 Thousandths with the KFH, and still have it run in below freezing conditions. I'm hoping for a smaller hole with a Gemtech M4-02. |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:21:54 PM EDT
[#40]
Great question. Still going to have only 2.7" of barrel out front, but if the KFH or Can fixes that, it's easier than making up special gas tubes... The other answer is that 11.5" is shorter than 12.5" and shorter is cooler. It's also cooler to have special non-standard parts, woo-hoo. All ribbing aside, if you make a run of Carbine +1" gas tubes, I would be in for a handful as well. There's going to be some time where that comes in really handy, I just know it. |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:23:18 PM EDT
[#41]
My barrel is a 16" Colt SP-1 carbine unit,,never been touched. What would be the appropriate port size for an 11.5" barrel? Thanks, Clint |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 7:46:42 PM EDT
[#42]
I've done that too, coin toss for compactness or velocity I guess. Where do you draw the line? If I'm going to 12.5" why not 14.5"? If you are going to pay the $200 fro the SBR, you may as well buy another stamp for a can. You add the KFH to the 12.5"w/mid and you have basically a 16" barrel. So long SBR. It works well but its still a half pound of loud at the end of the barrel. The ATF approval of the KX3 has inspired people to look into similiar designs for "moderator" style flash hiders in hopes of being classified as flash hiders. Imagine a KX3 with a counter sunk attachment point. Same volume, but only sticks out the muzzle 1". Too many things to look at. A 11.5" barrel is a mission specific item, with a very limited purpose. For the purpose it was built for, a can should be a requirement! I'll be demoing my set up once its finalized with a local PD pretty soon, but its a lost cause because cops are clueless  side track but funny----- These depts have a bunch of M16s(A1 style) that need(should have) new uppers. I've been talking to them about selling all their MP5SDs, and buying short suppressed uppers for their ARs, and the reasons they bring up as as concerns are just laughable(luckily we get along so we can laugh). I asked them how long the longest hallway was in the local high school. They realized it was more than they would be willing to take a shot with their MP5s(MP5s are all they have, despite TV not all PDs have "sniper teams") I said I'd hit an apple every time with my suppressed 11.5" AR upper. They then talked about keeping the MP5s for close up, and the M16s for the 500yd shots. 500yd shot. M16A1 1:12 barrel. 500yds. A city cop is concerned with taking a 500yd shot. Anyone with any sense of reality knows how funy that is, and I was simply left speechless. |
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Posted: 12/27/2005 8:41:39 PM EDT
[#43]
I've used standard carbine buffers. The one that M1S provided with the "kit". Nothing special. Maybe I've been just lucky, but no problems.
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Posted: 12/27/2005 8:50:23 PM EDT
[#44]
Interesting post bigbore. I kinda like the idea of a 12.5. If I am going to get an SBR, 14.5 aint worth it and 10.5 is too short. Thats why I ask.
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Posted: 12/28/2005 12:34:39 AM EDT
[#45]
The IDF widely issues the Colt Commando, especially to squad leaders, medics and radio operators. For the house to house, street to street fighting its an excellent weapon. The IDF apparently has had great luck with the 11.5 inch setup as they have been using it since the 60's.
Lethality with M193, which is still in use by the IDF as are other 5.56 bullets, would provide an accpetible amount of lethality and range for MOUT. The IDF uses alot of "short" rifles such as the SAR and Micro Galil. The widespread use of these weapons indicates that they are quite effective for the type of combat the IDF enages in. Considering that the IDF fights almost exclusively in urban areas and relies heavily on air support, the lack of range isn't really an impediment. A weapon with a range of 50-100 yards is acceptible in this situation. Strangely, I have seen several Colt Commando's in the hands of IDF soldiers which have been turned into DMR type weapons....which seems a little non-sensical. Depending on the unit, you will see IDF soldiers armed with a Galatz, M21, M14, M16A2, Colt 653, Commando, M4, Galil hybrids and etc....I have yet to understand the rhyme or reason behind the assignments of weapons in the IDF. I would speculate that its reserve and secondary forces which use the hodge podge. |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 1:52:41 AM EDT
[#46]
Dunno if you mean me but I told them they couldn't cut down an M16A1 barrel to 11.5", this is the first I've heard of a 16" SP1 barrel.
lethality wise?
you can but why would you? if it's the CDI factor then get over it
somewhere in the mid 0.08" range, but cut it and then short stroke test it, you may not need much gas more gas to get it to run, take the port up one size over the point where it reliably locks the bolt back back when fired. |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 6:12:23 PM EDT
[#47]
What else would a Colt SP-1 carbine have,out of the box? Not sure what brought the second comment on. Any thoughts on whether a Noveske KFH will help on a SBR? Mine arrived today. Thanks for the other info. Clint |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 6:37:46 PM EDT
[#48]
It's probably something about CAR SP-1's not being all that common. As in, why cut up a collectable, when other barrels/uppers are so readily available. As for shortening a 16" barrel to 11.5", you take a significant loss in velocity and therefore lethality. I think Tweak was just asking why you would want such a short barrel. A CAR SP-1 is not exactly your first choice for a duty gun, so we would all make an asumption you just want to do that because 'chicks dig it' (CDI factor) The Noveske Krink is 3" long without the locking ring that holds the baffle. If you are thinking to permenant attach it to get to 16", your barrel needs to be at least 13.7" long. If you have an SBR stamp, then 11.5" is fine and certainly has CDI factor with a Krink hanging off the front. As mentioned further up in the topic, the Krink will certainly help reliability with an 11.5" barrel. |
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Posted: 12/28/2005 7:10:08 PM EDT
[#49]
Just buy a LMT 10.5" upper add a Crane O-Ring and H-Buffer and you'll be fine. The LMT's flat out work. I've seen a few Bushy 11.5" have "issues".
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Posted: 12/28/2005 9:49:12 PM EDT
[#50]
a 16" SP1 barrel that's what, |
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