A friend who served two years in Iraq for the 1st Marine, issued a purple heart along with other medals, said about the gear being issued- that essentially they are carrying more weight and not in mags where it counts.

If your like me and many others on here we have rifles that are totally outfitted, with nifty expensive lights, mounts, rails, optics, batteries in storage compartments, extra bolt, springs, side swivel QD mounts, etc etc. My point I couldn't imagine what it must have been like during WWII carrying an M1Garand with a ruck plus all the other gear, yet with all the crap we throw on our rifles these days they weigh about the same if not more.

The AR was designed as a highly agile light fighting weapon system, now it has become a very versatile weapon system yet somehow more junk keeps finding it's way to being "necessary". Don't believe me, just look at the SOCOM M4A3 set up that keeps growing with more junk and nick nacks that need batteries, with wires, and special mounting systems etc. Scopes costing as much as a rifle. Red dot sights with backup magnifiers with backup flip sights with IR illuminators, laser systems, flash light systems, etc etc.

I like my cool flashlight that hangs to the side, that added probably a couple pounds between the accessory rail system, foward grip, and mounting bracket, special heat resistant panels, along with my cool flip up rear sight to accompany the dot scope. Yet I don't see anyone carrying all this junk for extended field conditions past a couple days. Whatever happened to buggout, light fighter style, grap your gear and go type setups.

Sorry, I just started seeing a really needy system that weighs a lot that most here including myself being out of the service for a while would need to acclimate considerably with all the extra weight included in these growing necessary devices. I guess learn your irons, train with a stripped rifle, and a basic chest rig holding six mags with two canteens or hump that ten mags, complete vest system with tied downs, camel back, tac rig, drop holster, drop mag pouch, and pimped AR to see what I'm talking about. Something to be said for keeping it simple stupid.    

You think a stripped bare basic AR will work better on the battlefield?

Does it work any less?

Those gadgets don't narrow the margin enough to justify the extra weight when it slows down the operator.  

Just an observation after talking with friends coming back from different combat zones.

Quoted: Does it work any less? Those gadgets don't narrow the margin enough to justify the extra weight when it slows down the operator.

If that is your point of view, thats great, but your lack of experience is showing.  

It was an observation not a slant after talking with some friends.  

More is not always better.  It is more METT-T than anything else.  Learn the basics and everything else is "gravy".   More shit mean more shit to go wrong.  

A little off the subject:  GPS is a good tool, but just that a tool.  I don't care how much of a GPS guru you are if you can't use a map and compass you suck!

Corporal James Webb United States Marines, 167 confirmed kills, over two years in Iraq, award several medals including the one no one wants; the Purple Heart.  

Lt. Jean-Luc Houlne, United States Army, Afghanistan eight months, several firefights, has been attached to special forces units.

Both guys said their gear weighed so damn much they couldn't have much further than mounted patrols with a few exceptions.  James said half the junk other than optics isn't even necessary except with maybe one or two guys per platoon.

Just an observation after talking some friends. Course I'm not selling my pimped out AR's anytime soon.  

Ammo lasts longer if you get more first round hits due to good optics and can often plant rounds right where you want them. Flashlights and other night gear can come off during the day too. The WWII guys would have loved to have that stuff and would gladly added them to Garands, no matter what the weight grew too.

No Marine is going to refuse a good optic, light or NVG. What gear exactly are you talking about?
Yes, gear weighs alot. It sucks. I'll still take it though, cause most of it is worth the wieght. No offence, but I think you misunderstood your friend. Irons are essential to have and know how to use, but why turn down something better?

If you had to clear a dark building, would rather have a weapon light or an 8-ounce lighter forend.

Vertical grip flashlight and sight are all I would need or want.

Well if your gonna talk METT -TC, then you need a IR laser for use at night to engage tgts and for Command and control of your direct fires. Your going to need a light for certain situations. An optic like the Battle proven M68 makes tgt aqusition and tgt engagment faster and easier under duress. a good quality BUIS for redundency.  A rail system to be able to mount the IR laser and the light.  if you call those unneeded then you never operated in a team environment  at night.

If the Guys back 60 years ago had this technology they  would have loved it and would have been thrilled to bolt it on their Garand.

Trust me.. 20 years from now, guys will be posting a thread about how we should go back to the basic M68 CCO and a flashlight and BUIS.......

I run a 16" HBAR with a Aimpoint and a RAS and a Light with a BUIS. actually a pretty common set up that I have not changed in over 2 years. it weight 9.5Lbs  I swing it around  for days and never seem to have a problem and I don't consider myself to be Mr Universe Material.


A soldiers load has been heavy since the Roman Legions, I don't see it changing other then the fact that the lethality of a 9 man Infantry squad today is probably 10 times what it was just 30 years ago........

technology is great... otherwisw how would I have wacked these guys?  7 combat actions and im still open to new ideas! if your boys think there shit is to heavy then they need to hit the gym or transition to the SEALS!  lol

There is a reason all that shit is on there. They don't do it to impress girls.

welp.. i popped an aimpoint on mine as did a bunch of other people before we went over. I'd have liked to have my personal m4 setup over my issue a2 though.

so genereally speaking i'd rather have the fancy stuff complete with ACOG and KAC stuff

I had a stock a3 carbine and recently added on a light/rail/vfg, and frankly, being a 150lb 19 year old, I think if you complain about the weight I don't see how you made it into the military.  Hit the gym, please.

Using it for extended trips?  What about slings... that's what they're for.  You barely have to touch them, just enough to keep the rifle from bouncing around.

My forged longsword is like twice as heavy as my AR, fully decked out,, and it was forged in exact duplication to longswords during the crusades.  They used to carry the sword, the shield, and full plate armor...

Uhhh, didn't have "full-plate armor" during the crusades.  And well-built metal armor was relatively light; the stuff everyone talked about needing a crane to get on a horse was 16th century sporting armor for jousting only.  I've handled the real period stuff and worked for a museum-grade armorer.

Otherwise, good thread.  The only add-ons I put on my A2 is an EOTech and a mag-pouch on the butt-stock.  However, I will add a light next time.

Uhhh, didn't have "full-plate armor" during the crusades.  And well-built metal armor was relatively light; the stuff everyone talked about needing a crane to get on a horse was 16th century sporting armor for jousting only.  I've handled the real period stuff and worked for a museum-grade armorer.

Otherwise, good thread.  The only add-ons I put on my A2 is an EOTech and a mag-pouch on the butt-stock.  However, I will add a light next time.

You are right that we tend to add a lot of extra weight on our weapons and sometimes during extended carry I would be cursing it.  I carried an M4/ M203 with Elbit Falcon reflex sight in the IDF.  The 203 made the weapon harder to weild in close quarters, much more front heavy and more of a pain in the ass to carry for longer periods of time.  The Elbit added a bit of weight to the flat top too.  But, once the bullets started flying towards me, this extra weight didn't matter.  In fact, I look at the gadgets on the weapons today and can think of many times where I wished I had something like them on mine.

I see your point but what a carbine that will be in the field  for months deep-poo patroling needs is not necessarily the same as what a carbine that will be operating out of the house/station/base needs.

I believe the weight of todays gear is directly related to the fact most recent conficts have been  an airmobile and mechanized misson in mount or desert terrain.  If the future requires operations in light infantry environments (jungles) where vehicle use is limited, the individual operator load will lighten up.  I think its good to use all you can, but maintain your basic skills.  NODs are a great force multiplier (especially if you have them and the enemy don't), but keep your unaided warrior skills honed, along with compass/map nav, hand & arm signals, etc..........

Spent 11 months as an infantryman in Iraq. Never once did I hear a complaint from my soldiers about having to carry an optic, laser, or flashlight. They reserved their complaining for more important things like missing hot chow.

I'm sure that PVT Joe Snuffy would have refused systems that let him see in the dark, ID targets in the dark, handled his weapon more easily, designate targets to CAS, ID himself to other 11Bs in the area, made it easier to get in and out of confined spaces and vehicles, see farther, and carry more ammo.
Those things are there because we fight a little differently than we did 60 years ago, with higher operational tempos and a more 24 hour pace of battle.  CAS really didn't exist, night fighting was frustrating more than anything else, and taking casualties (while even then not desireable) was tolerated a little more.  Combined arms was still being worked out.
All that extraneous "crap" is there for a reason.  If your pards are bitching about weight, I would be curious as to what other junk they are carrying.  If they have dicked up MCLs that would point more to leadership than weapon issues.
In general, you're not fighting with a ruck on.  There's QD releases on the ruck for a reason.  Been that way for as long as there have been rucks.  The M16/M4 is still agile.  How much would that 8 round wood and steel monument of technology weigh with VFG, OTAL, VLI, and optic?  Talk about ammo issues, have fun with that 80 round battle load and a few bandos of the same number.  Who gives a damn if the optic costs as much as the rifle?  How much does it cost to lose a troop who needed that optic but didn't have it?  Or to lose an opportunity that couldn't be taken because PVT Snuffy couldn't see the turd?  And all that "junk" that's listed on the SOPMOD kit isn't on the blaster at all times anyway, and some of it doesn't even get carried if your mission doesn't need it.
If you didn't see M4s carried with all sorts of things on them for long duration patrols, you must not have seen the long duration patrols.
Your light fighter BOB kit is called 1st line gear, and is still used, and is what usually gets retained after you drop your ruck.

Quoted: They don't do it to impress girls.

There is another reason?

Before you complain about, or justify the weight, it's useful to examine exactly what is being carried and why.

First of all, there is a certain amount of gear that is intended for work at night.  Before someone says you don't need it during the day, please refer to Mogadishu.  People carry extra batteries because they might need them.  I think there is good reason to have you NODS, etc., even during a daytime op.

NODS are usually helmet mounted, not weapon mounts so during the day they would be in your assault pack, not on your helmet or weapon.  But, the PEQ/PAQ laser will be mounted.  Anyone know how good these are at return-to-zero?  If they can be unbolted during the day and return to zero when reinstalled, then that is a weight savings.

Flashlights may not be a necessary out in the boonies, but it would seem to be an absolute necessity in urban ops.  You never know when you might be entering a dark building or room and a light will make the difference between shooting haji or some 4 year old.  This however, is an area where a weigh savings is appropriate.  The best lights are the Surefires, but look at the weight!  Do they really need to be made out of such high grade aluminum?  The G2 nitrolon lights work just fine.  I'd like to see one made with a nitrolon body and integral picatinny mount.  Use a push button lock for the mount like the fobus.  It doesn't need an optics grade ARMS mount.  Make it in two versions, one with a straight mount and one that is offset.  Tailcap with either a push button or a tape switch.  The expensive parts are the lense, bulb and batteries.  The body should be cheap, strong enough for most uses, but throwaway if it gets busted.  Total cost should be under $100.  Switching from heavy aluminum to nitrolon would save a lot of weight.

Railed forends add a little bit of weight, but they have become a necessity if you want to add the gear that adds to your survivability, i.e. lasers & lights.  VFG are not a total necessity but I think there is enough user experience to say that for most people, they contribute significantly to control and therefore, to your survivability.  Weight can be minimal for a lightly made example, but accept the fact that if you are going to store batteries on the weapon, it will add to the weight.

Optics.  If they didn't make you a more effective warrior, then why are they still so popular?  Magnified optics like the ACOG contribute significantly to target identification and first round hits at medium to extended ranges.  Even with BAC, they are not as fast at CQB distances as a non-magnifying optic.  How many troops in Iraq or Afghanistan would prefer iron sights to an Aimpoint or EoTech?  Anyone? Anyone?  I hear chirping crickets.

As a civilian, I like a light rifle, but if I was in a combat situation, I would want every possible add-on that would contribute to my effectiveness and survival.  For those who complain about the weight, please compare the weight of an M4 with KAC RAS, Aimpoint, VFG, Surefire M951 and a PEQ to an M1 Garand, M1903 Sprinfield or an M1 Thompson.  Even with the extra gear, the M4 is lighter.

The Mission Dictates The Gear.

If I needed the "MUCH BASIC" for at least going into "battlefield" I would have at least these items on my AR.........................



Eotech....................batteries for it will be plentiful.
BUIS.......................its a must when eotech fails, if it ever will, it will probably get shot before it does.
VFG........................it will help with those follow-up shots.
Surefire light system.........

Thats what I will at least have, and I would call this very bear.

any other gadgets depends on user and situation.


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Quoted: Ammo lasts longer if you get more first round hits due to good optics and can often plant rounds right where you want them.

Tell that to the AIMPOINT shooters who I smoked with my irons in my last class.

I'm not here to brag.  Shit!  I think I'm just an average shooter.  But too often people substitute gadgetry for skill.

I've never been in military combat, but the training I've had has convinced me that K.I.S.S. is a good idea.

I was a 11B10, have a few ARs now days,have one of my safe queens all decked out.
But, for my grab & go, I'd take my KISS A1 carbine.

Light fighter vs hollywood methods,have to go with light fighter.

TG

In 12 months in Iraq I didn't ever bitch about the weight of my M249 + Ammo when on a mission. I bitched about it when I had to take it to chow and carry it around all day with only 30 rounds in a M16 magazine, but never when I was actually going to use the thing. In fact, I routinely turned down requests to relieve me.

Quoted: Corporal James Webb United States Marines, 167 confirmed kills,

While I appreciate his service very much, I find this number very hard to believe. As a result, the rest of the post becomes suspect.

I still think he misunderstood, I'm an 03 myself and I have bitched about the weight of my flak, my helmet my 240 etc...however when it came down to it there was no way in hell I'd give up any of those things. If you asked your friend specifically, "would you give up your rail mounted light?" I bet he'd say no, and if he does say yes, I'd high;y suspect some of his stories.

Have you tried getting rid of all that accessory weight and all of those magazines and lights and optics and just getting rid of that jam-prone LMT and going with a back-to-the-basics-but dependable stamped Bulgarian 5.56 NATO AKS-74M1A1 that is as rare as frog hair?

Quoted: Quoted: Ammo lasts longer if you get more first round hits due to good optics and can often plant rounds right where you want them. Tell that to the AIMPOINT shooters who I smoked with my irons in my last class. I'm not here to brag.  Shit!  I think I'm just an average shooter.  But too often people substitute gadgetry for skill. I've never been in military combat, but the training I've had has convinced me that K.I.S.S. is a good idea.

I said GOOD optics!

Quoted: Quoted: Corporal James Webb United States Marines, 167 confirmed kills, While I appreciate his service very much, I find this number very hard to believe. As a result, the rest of the post becomes suspect.

+100.  Lots o' uninformed bullshit in this thread.  And markm, just because you smoked someone carrying an Aimpoint doesn't mean irons are as fast as Aimpoints...it just means that the twits you outshot couldn't shoot worth a fuck.

Quoted: The Mission Dictates The Gear.

Dude, quit talking sense, this is Arfcom. If you wanna think like that you should go to 10-8!

it just means that the twits you outshot couldn't shoot worth a fuck.

I was thinking the same thing....

We need the IR lasers and flashlights. We don't fight better at night than any army in history because of carrot consumption.

Quoted: Uhhh, didn't have "full-plate armor" during the crusades.  And well-built metal armor was relatively light; the stuff everyone talked about needing a crane to get on a horse was 16th century sporting armor for jousting only.  I've handled the real period stuff and worked for a museum-grade armorer. Otherwise, good thread.  The only add-ons I put on my A2 is an EOTech and a mag-pouch on the butt-stock.  However, I will add a light next time.

It's still heavier then the stuff you put on today, especially as seeing how 90% of the people on this board are not LEO/Mil.

And they did have full plate armor in the crusades - that's my main area of study in religious history.  Later on they used it for jousting only because they realized it wasn't practical, especially post-crusades.  Most armor wasn't "well-built" either.  I own some of the real grade stuff.  A full suit of plate armor weighs about 60lbs, so you can figure each piece to be about 10lbs - and that's probably the "well-built" stuff.  Most crusaders used chainmail, but several substituted and added plate pieces, as well as many using full plate after enough of the western europeans were slaughtered by the muslims' crossbows.

An 8 oz. flashlight isn't heavy either.  From K.I.S.S. to "Hollywood", it's a difference of like 5 lbs tops.  Who in the hell complains about 5lbs?  Not even my girlfriend did, sorry boys, hit the gym

Quoted: An 8 oz. flashlight isn't heavy either.  From K.I.S.S. to "Hollywood", it's a difference of like 5 lbs tops.  Who in the hell complains about 5lbs?  Not even my girlfriend did, sorry boys, hit the gym

It's just like any physical job. If you carry the weapon every day, be it 5 pounds or 12, you get used to the weight. Train hard, fight easy.

I worked a 24" Husky chainsaw summers in high school and college. It was a heavy sumanabitch for the first few days. Now it's nothing. Pick it up, use it, put it down.

For a weapon example, my first AR was a 20" HBAR. A wee over 10 pounds. 5 years with that before I bought a carbine or built anything. Now my tricked out carbine is 8 pounds, and my HD rifle is 6.5. They are nothing to me. I want to put more on them just so the weight is closer to what I'm used to.

What did these two "friends" do job-wise?  Seems the guys in the rear complain the loudest.

One thing to keep in mind with the golfbag guns is that the intention was to kit your rifle out for a specific job -- Remember, the P stands for perculiar. But as the tricks make their way out to more people, there is a need to pack all of your stuff around with you.

The interesting part is that this has put us in a transitional phase, if not an evoltion; as the devices that work and can be used well are identified, they are being improved and a big part of improvement means making them lighter... the MDNS and various designators are probably what things will look like for eveyone in the not too distant future.

But, for now, well optics are great stuff... no doubt. IR designators too. A light is something that I am not a big fan of, but I have logged a lot of time in confined space and the luster of a rifle mounted light has faded pretty fast there. Can you have too much stuff? Of course, I am surprised that so many people think that five lbs does not mean that much... I know when I was packing everything I owned for days on end, five lbs was noticed -- also, I can think of a better way to use that five lbs, say ammo? food? hell even fuel...

I get a kick out of people that spend 1.2 buttloads of money on the latest uber barrel, then send it out and spend more money having it turned down to knock of maybe a pound? Seems that if they are willling to fork over the cash, that weight savings is real enough...

Anyway, these doo-dads are part of the way we do business, and will just get better, but there is something to be said for the lightweight, bomb-proof platform that everything is bolted on to.

First Post.  Figures I'd have to get into the shit...

Opinions vary-as personal experiences with weapons & tactics-LEO Vs. Military, etc.  Ask anyone in past wars who chose and M-14 over an M1 carbine-or vice versa.

I agree with both sides...but both eyes open sighting scopes with iron backup is to me a no brainer.  Even with a huge failure of the sight and the rear blocked-the tube and front sight can make for a field expedient peep sight...A flashlight in the urban scene-no brainer also.  The additional stuff depending on time/mission/etc. will dictate it's necessity.  

BUT: Here is my personal beef: The .223 and whatever rifle it's wrapped within (with the exception of long range/bench guns) has grown into the weight class of a full size battle rifle.  It sort of goes against the philosophy of what made the early M-16/AR-15 great IMHO.  

Now hear me out-a 10 lb .308 with irons vs. a 10 lb M4 with all the gear attached to it-again mission will dictate.  Most here will side with the M4...until circumstances on range and power dictate otherwise.

What I want is more of the well made Carbon/plastic variants.  Now, I know the barrels are thinner (problem for sustained fire stuff) and the plastic may break under extreme conditions (though plastic flexes w/o breakage better than most metals).  I guess what I am saying is that will all the bells/buzzers/whistles why can't there be a loaded 8lb AR system built to with stand war?

And as far as working out?  A human can only bear so much weight...and a weight savings of 2-4 lbs?  Well, that's 2-4 lbs worth of ammo or med equiptment the average person can carry.

Anyway my thoughts (oh, crap where's my flame suit...)

Quoted: Tell that to the AIMPOINT shooters who I smoked with my irons in my last class. I'm not here to brag.  Shit!  I think I'm just an average shooter.  But too often people substitute gadgetry for skill.

If you were that good with irons, just think how much faster and more accurate you'd be with a proper optic.

Junkyard,
This is a slight hijack, but give me an example of FULL PLATE in any of the Crusades.  The most advance armor was maile with some plates.  Far from full plate.

For those who are interested, full plate armor that is properly fitted to the user is not the uberload that Hollywood likes you to think.  The user had full mobility and actually had the ability (documented on multiple occasions) to leap into the saddle without using the stirrups.  Because the entire weight didn't hang from the shoulders, but was distributed over the body, it was actually more comfortable than maile.  It also made the wearer virtually impervious to all weapons until firearms.  Contrary to popular belief, crossbows, arrows and swords will not penetrate plate.  Swords are actually pretty useless unless it was one of the ones with a narrow, very stiff blade designed to penetrate joints.  That was really the only area of vulnerability.  Penetrate a joint or visor with a thin, stiff blade.  Overwhelm him with foot soldiers who pull him to the ground and hold him down while someone beats in his helmet with a hammer or sticks a dagger in his eye.

Going back to the original discussion, comparing a 10lb MBR to a 10lb M4 is not a fair comparison when the MBR doesn't have all the gear that makes that M4 weigh 10lbs.  You would need to compare the 14lb MBR with 180rds of ammo to the 10lb M4 with 390 rds of ammo.

Quoted: Quoted: Ammo lasts longer if you get more first round hits due to good optics and can often plant rounds right where you want them. Tell that to the AIMPOINT shooters who I smoked with my irons in my last class. I'm not here to brag.  Shit!  I think I'm just an average shooter.  But too often people substitute gadgetry for skill. I've never been in military combat, but the training I've had has convinced me that K.I.S.S. is a good idea.

Now imagine if you can, how well you'd shoot if you put that effort into learning to use an EOTech or Aimpoint.
This is a pointless argument.  All it says is that YOU are better than THEM. It says nothing about the device.
I'm better with irons than a red dot.  Not because one is better than the other, but because I've put down thousands of rounds using iron sights.  Let me put down a couple thousand with an M68 CCO and I'll probably be even better with that.

Some of that stuff is very useful.  Total, or near total darkness requires either a light, or NODS.  With NODs, unless you have a set of PVS14's behind an Aimpoint (which requires the M68 CCO) you need an IR laser to aim.  Possibly a light for house clearing to make it easier to ID targets from civillians.
Look at the SOPMOD poster.  Now engage the brain and realise that you don't have all that stuff on the weapon at once.  You might have most of it on for a posed picture.

I once staked my life on the M16A1.  It was plain and simple, no weird gadgets, and it did the job just fine.

If you haven't been there and done it, then keep your fucking mouths shut and useless opinions to yourselves.  There are way too many "wanna-be's" lurking around here that have absolutely no idea what a combat weapon is all about.

Rant over.


1st Cav Div, B 5/7
RVN 1970