Civilians Help Army Train M16 Designated Marksmen

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Civilians Help Army Train M16 Designated Marksmen

Posted: 12/16/2005 3:11:55 PM EDT

Photos and story: www.odcmp.org/1205/default.asp?page=SDM

Photos include an Army AR15 DMR bought from Armalite by CMP, modified by USAMU, and used for training courses. This is a civilian-available AR, NOT an M16A4.

Posted: 12/30/2005 1:57:38 PM EDT

[#1]

That's hot!

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:33:10 PM EDT

[#2]

interesting !

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:38:49 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
interesting !

Yes it is.

I believe I had heard this before, and it does not surprise me.

I know some very good shooters who are not military, yet exactly the type to want to share fundamentals and the finer points of putting a round where you want one.

This is the epitome of making a civilian contribution.

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:52:23 PM EDT

[#4]

outstanding Sinister, good call.

BTW, I'd bet a lot of those "civilians" are former .mil so it's a complete circle.

Posted: 12/30/2005 3:56:39 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Quoted:
interesting !

Yes it is.

I believe I had heard this before, and it does not surprise me.

I know some very good shooters who are not military, yet exactly the type to want to share fundamentals and the finer points of putting a round where you want one.

This is the epitome of making a civilian contribution.

This is just the kind of stuff the "yellow glass shooters" do which will probably put lives in danger as they teach this obsolete and useless doctrine to real soldiers.

Well, at tleast thats what I'm told

Posted: 12/30/2005 4:28:36 PM EDT

[#6]

The Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) is a soldier who is trained in advanced marksmanship techniques that make him capable of delivering hits on man-sized targets at ranges from 200 to 500 meters. This is a distance that is well beyond the capabilities of the typical infantryman.

ALL Marines HAVE to QUALIFY at 500 meters! The army should teach all their soldiers to shoot better.

Posted: 12/30/2005 4:41:57 PM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:
The Squad Designated Marksman (SDM) is a soldier who is trained in advanced marksmanship techniques that make him capable of delivering hits on man-sized targets at ranges from 200 to 500 meters. This is a distance that is well beyond the capabilities of the typical infantryman.

ALL Marines HAVE to QUALIFY at 500 meters! The army should teach all their soldiers to shoot better.

everyone knows the Marines kick ass when it comes to markmanship

But......is the average Marine infantryman more capable than an army SDM???
I wouldnt be suprised if skill-for-skill the Marines are all more than the SDM equivelent

Posted: 12/30/2005 4:59:29 PM EDT

[#8]

Very cool. I'm glad the military is using this untapped potential.

Posted: 12/30/2005 5:03:41 PM EDT

[#9]

This is good!

Posted: 12/30/2005 5:14:08 PM EDT

[#10]

I disagree with the assertion that "yellow glass shooters" don't have something to contribute to the training of squad designated marksmen. The Marine Corps and Army field their own teams of "yellow glass shooters". These teams are called the Marine Corps Shooting team and the Army Marksmanship Unit. These teams participate in the training of marksmanship instructors in both of the aforementioned branches of service. Quite clearly the Marine Corps and Army recognize the value of "yellow glass shooters" in this effort. Qualified civilian "yellow glass shooters" are being used to supplement the training efforts of the marksmanship team members. Having personally participated in both Highpower rifle shooting ( High Master with a service rifle, Distinguished rifleman #1593) and IPSC / IDPA competition with pistol, shotgun and rifle, I can say with certainty that the skill set required for shooting at or beyond 300 yards is better taught by a "yellow glass shooter".

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:38:34 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
I disagree with the assertion that "yellow glass shooters" don't have something to contribute to the training of squad designated marksmen. The Marine Corps and Army field their own teams of "yellow glass shooters". These teams are called the Marine Corps Shooting team and the Army Marksmanship Unit. These teams participate in the training of marksmanship instructors in both of the aforementioned branches of service. Quite clearly the Marine Corps and Army recognize the value of "yellow glass shooters" in this effort. Qualified civilian "yellow glass shooters" are being used to supplement the training efforts of the marksmanship team members. Having personally participated in both Highpower rifle shooting ( High Master with a service rifle, Distinguished rifleman #1593) and IPSC / IDPA competition with pistol, shotgun and rifle, I can say with certainty that the skill set required for shooting at or beyond 300 yards is better taught by a "yellow glass shooter".

Sorry, I was joking. I'm sure Sinister knew I was.

I have my own yellow glasses and can be found living in hut at Camp Perry throughout the summer for both ORPA and the national matches. If you search for threads discussing high power shooting, you will see they almost all turn into pissing matches about gunfighting. Very well respected people in the training arena see the "Train the trainers" as nothing more than an attempt by the competition crowd to validate their existence.

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:49:19 PM EDT

[#12]

Tag.

Posted: 12/30/2005 6:57:26 PM EDT

[#13]

No offense taken. I may be ignorant regarding the politics surrounding the train the trainer program, but the concept seems good to me. Having spoken with a current member of the 82nd airborne about his marksmanship training ( and taking him to the range for some remedial training at my expense ) , it would seem that just about any quality range time would be helpful. He came away from the experience a much more proficient marksman.

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:02:06 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
No offense taken. I may be ignorant regarding the politics surrounding the train the trainer program, but the concept seems good to me. Having spoken with a current member of the 82nd airborne about his marksmanship training ( and taking him to the range for some remedial training at my expense ) , it would seem that just about any quality range time would be helpful. He came away from the experience a much more proficient marksman.

Its a changing world. Every Soldier and Marine would benefit by additional training in basic marksmanship skills. With the populated world we live in today, I do think more shooting practice should be done at close(50yds and under) ranges too. Being able to take that long aimed shot at 300yds, and head shots at 7yds are skills that need to be honed, that arent even 2 sides of the same coin IMO.

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:09:23 PM EDT

[#15]

You are correct about the need for close quarters combat training. No time to sling up and shoot sitting or prone in the vast majority of combat encounters.

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:21:01 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:

Its a changing world. Every Soldier and Marine would benefit by additional training in basic marksmanship skills. With the populated world we live in today, I do think more shooting practice should be done at close(50yds and under) ranges too. Being able to take that long aimed shot at 300yds, and head shots at 7yds are skills that need to be honed, that arent even 2 sides of the same coin IMO.

Speaking only from my limited Marine Corps experience, some 20 years ago:
The skills we learned translated into some fantastic marksmanship.
Using lightweight profile barrels, Non-free float, chrome lined, standard OEM iron sights, worn out barrels and bolts, standard 62gr ammo, and a loop sling deflecting the barrel as much as we could . . . .if you read this board long enough you would think no one could hit the broad side of a barn. Those jarheads could hit the dick off a duck at 300-500m.
But looking back, I felt we put too much training and emphasis on 300m to 500m. Loop sling, sight picture, sight alignment, b-r-a-s-s, etc, are almost useless at the short distances most engagements take place. I can't remember all the statistics, but for example if 70% of the gunfights happen under 75m, then I would have 70% of the training focus on the skills of those distances.
Again, I have been out a long time, so I am sure a lot has changed....

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:21:05 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I have my own yellow glasses and can be found living in hut at Camp Perry throughout the summer for both ORPA and the national matches. If you search for threads discussing high power shooting, you will see they almost all turn into pissing matches about gunfighting. Very well respected people in the training arena see the "Train the trainers" as nothing more than an attempt by the competition crowd to validate their existence.

So LTC Liwanag is trying to justify his existence?

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:26:09 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Its a changing world. Every Soldier and Marine would benefit by additional training in basic marksmanship skills. With the populated world we live in today, I do think more shooting practice should be done at close(50yds and under) ranges too. Being able to take that long aimed shot at 300yds, and head shots at 7yds are skills that need to be honed, that arent even 2 sides of the same coin IMO.

Speaking only from my limited Marine Corps experience, some 20 years ago:
The skills we learned translated into some fantastic marksmanship.
Using lightweight profile barrels, Non-free float, chrome lined, standard OEM iron sights, worn out barrels and bolts, standard 62gr ammo, and a loop sling deflecting the barrel as much as we could . . . .if you read this board long enough you would think no one could hit the broad side of a barn. Those jarheads could hit the dick off a duck at 300-500m.
But looking back, I felt we put too much training and emphasis on 300m to 500m. Loop sling, sight picture, sight alignment, b-r-a-s-s, etc, are almost useless at the short distances most engagements take place. I can't remember all the statistics, but for example if 70% of the gunfights happen under 75m, then I would have 70% of the training focus on the skills of those distances.
Again, I have been out a long time, so I am sure a lot has changed....

I understand the debate still rages. From what I have read the Marine training makes a better “Marksman” the Army “Pop-up” range prepares you to fight.

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:27:42 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I have my own yellow glasses and can be found living in hut at Camp Perry throughout the summer for both ORPA and the national matches. If you search for threads discussing high power shooting, you will see they almost all turn into pissing matches about gunfighting. Very well respected people in the training arena see the "Train the trainers" as nothing more than an attempt by the competition crowd to validate their existence.

So LTC Liwanag is trying to justify his existence?

Those arent my words, they were taken from a reply in a thread I started in a different forum.

Posted: 12/30/2005 7:55:05 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have my own yellow glasses and can be found living in hut at Camp Perry throughout the summer for both ORPA and the national matches. If you search for threads discussing high power shooting, you will see they almost all turn into pissing matches about gunfighting. Very well respected people in the training arena see the "Train the trainers" as nothing more than an attempt by the competition crowd to validate their existence.

So LTC Liwanag is trying to justify his existence?

Those arent my words, they were taken from a reply in a thread I started in a different forum.

Sonuva!

I'm a new shooter, pretty much. I met LTC Liwanag in the Armalite shop at commercial row at Perry this year ( 2005 ). I didn't know his name at the time, but I did shake his hand and chat for a bit.

Now I got myself thinking... Was he in the Armalite store to get the rifles for this program?

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:04:13 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I have my own yellow glasses and can be found living in hut at Camp Perry throughout the summer for both ORPA and the national matches. If you search for threads discussing high power shooting, you will see they almost all turn into pissing matches about gunfighting. Very well respected people in the training arena see the "Train the trainers" as nothing more than an attempt by the competition crowd to validate their existence.

So LTC Liwanag is trying to justify his existence?

Those arent my words, they were taken from a reply in a thread I started in a different forum.

Color me slow but I can't tell if yer fer it or agin it?

Posted: 12/30/2005 8:17:58 PM EDT

[#22]

Bigbore is all fer it.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Civilians Help Army Train M16 Designated Marksmen

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