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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:29:31 PM EDT
[#1]
flattop 14.5" M4 upper with perm phantom
aimpoint w/o backup irons that would make it a LITTLE lighter of course the next step woud be a CF lower/upper. bushmaster makes them those YHM rails are pretty light. they are aluminum i think. i dont think the plastic ones would be better, dont know of any CF ones |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:32:08 PM EDT
[#2]
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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:34:49 PM EDT
[#3]
Superlites are nice but I don't imagine the weight savings over a govt profile to be too crazy or anything. Get a good sling, I can't imagine a situation where you'd have to be at the ready position for over an hour with no support to rest on like a squad car etc. Besides, coming from the low ready (weapon slung yet your hand is on the pg, thumb on safety, finger str8 off trigger etc) to the firing position isn't all that much of a time killer. I def wouldn't recommend that crosshair front sight especially for leo apps. (someone correct me if i'm wrong, not a cop) If your going into a snapshot situation i don't think picking up a fine crosshair would be easy especially under duress.
In the end, I'd say a good tac sling, the aimpoint, a small light and lots of practice will be good to go. I'm sure the others will chime in pretty soon. whew, longest post ever... eta: didn't read about the dept issue sling... |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:43:41 PM EDT
[#4]
Dump the stock, dump the rail. I deploy my carbine just about daily, and extended clearing, one handed work, perimeter duty, and K9 tracks can become tiring.
If you are looking to go with an Aimpoint and light while trying to stay light weight, consider something like this..... 
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Posted: 10/9/2005 6:49:08 PM EDT
[#5]
Step away from the crack pipe. |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 7:16:11 PM EDT
[#6]
 okyour setup is about what i was thinking of, a stripped down basic M4. sounded like he wanted to keep the vertical grip though. how much heavier is the magpul stock over the M4/CAR stock? |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 7:32:30 PM EDT
[#7]
It is actually an accumulation of all the "toys" we hang on our rifles that ultimately weights it down!
 There is no one single piece you can remove or replace and expect a considerable reduction in its weight! As Stickman advocated, replacing the stock and handguard to regular M4 stock and guards would be a start. Since I asume that SBRs are a no-no for you, why not consider replacing your M4 barrel with a pencil type barrel? That would reduce some weight. And since I do not forsee you using your rifle as an LEO with consecutive FA mag dumps ... or prying any door with a bayonet or your barrel, then a pencil barrel may be a good choice to consider. I know, I know ... pencils are uncool... ... but they have their advantages.
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Posted: 10/9/2005 7:33:02 PM EDT
[#8]
IIRC the Magpul weighs about the same as an A2. Subjectively that seems right.
Superlight barrels do make a noticeable difference for me. Being in LE, you are unlikely to experience a situation where POI shift from a hot superlight barrel becomes an issue. When you get a light, consider the SF Scout light. Its good for maybe 40 yards, and best used indoors, but it weighs about 4 ounces, plus mount weight. My M962 9 volt weighs 11 ounces. Are you mounting anything to your rail? If not, ditch it. You can use the mag well as a hold. PRI used to make a carbon fiber handguard with rails. I believe it is out of production in the 7 inch length. Otherwise you could bolt rails to a Hyperform or Clark. I do not know how sturdy they are though. New-Arguy has a setup like that. The LMT BUIS is heavy compared to an ARMS 40 or another flip sight. If you're really scrounging for places to save weight, theres an option. For front sight posts, I would put a WIDE tritium front post in. If you have to shoot in the dark and your aimpoint isnt on, it makes a difference. I would also put same place appertures from AO in the rear--I like same plane apps and the AO ones ar bigger than stock, for the wider front sight. I took two forty hour classes in a row with a rifle length MRP with a 16" mid weight barrel and a magpul M93. I know the feeling! My brother shot one class with a Colt 6520 and the next with an MRP 10.5. I was jealous! |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 8:04:31 PM EDT
[#9]
i would either replace barrel or reprofile.
of the stock is part of the problem too. |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 9:31:14 PM EDT
[#10]
Last night I was possitioned at the end of a trailer house, covering the back, no real cover for me and there was absolutely nothing to rest my gun on. Will probably be going with a flip up BUIS when I go with AimPoint, so that will help. Not having a BUIS is NOT an option. Will probably be mounting a small M3X for a light. Used one on my duty pistol for while and they are bright as all get out and very lightweight. I think that if I had my 3-point sling on there, to allow the gun to rest freely in front of me, it would have made all the difference in the world! Thanks, for the input! Allison |
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Posted: 10/9/2005 11:14:56 PM EDT
[#11]
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Posted: 10/9/2005 11:42:00 PM EDT
[#12]
What kinda light also? |
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Posted: 10/10/2005 12:21:20 AM EDT
[#13]
Have one of these barrels installed. Stay away from the carbon fiber receivers. Aluminum is the standard and you dont want to deviate from that because of the work you do. I'd also stay away from the fancy sights. The standard front sight post and an Aimpoint will fit the bill. Maybe trade that LMT for a folding rear sight, unless you dont mind looking over a fixed rear sight to use your dot.
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Posted: 10/10/2005 8:26:39 AM EDT
[#14]
The light is the Pentagon X3 along with the pressure pad which I picked up through Teknic www.rainierarms.com/ (I can't say enough good things about him and his service).
The mount is a TacStar Universal Barrel Mount, and should run around $20 or so. Here are a few more picture if it helps.  
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Posted: 10/11/2005 7:06:44 AM EDT
[#15]
What contour is your current barrel? I know you said "M4" but that doesn't tell me what contour it is under the HG. If it is heavy under the HG, recontouring can save you almost 1/2lb. That's alot on the front of your gun. Switching the MagPul for an M4-type stock might save you a little weight, but you might like the balance better with the MagPul.
Obviously, the "pencil" barrel is the lightest solution. But recontouring is the cheapest solution. Good luck. |
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Posted: 10/11/2005 7:14:44 AM EDT
[#16]
Hit the gym you little girlh
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Posted: 10/11/2005 7:43:52 AM EDT
[#17]
Magpull 93A......22.1 oz CAR 4 Pos...........14.6 oz Difference 7.5 oz
LMT BUIS...........5.0 oz ARMs 40L.............1.2 oz Differnece 3.8 oz YHM FF LW.......10.6 oz M4 and hardware...8.9 oz Difference 1.7oz Barrel M4 HBAR..33.5 oz M4 lower profile...29.5 oz Difference 4.0 oz Total savings- 17 oz, over a pound. To me it looks like the bigs saving will be the stock and BUIS. Hanguards take a lot of thinking, if you ditch the handguard and add any kind of light you will have to add some kind of hardware to attach the light and then you gain back the weight you lost with a less than optimal setup. Rail covers are something that is often overlooked as something that adds a lot of weight, but they can suprise you. The full length low profile ladder type covers only weigh .3 oz each, but the tangodown panels are getting up there around 2.5 oz each. Knights panels are about 1 oz each. So consider that, sometimes a good way to lose 1/4 of a pound is to take off your panels and only use 3 ladder type panels. You could also save about 2.1 oz by replacing your YHM handguard with a Daniel Defense 7.0 (which is the lightest weight railed FF tube out there). There are currently no railed carbon fiber FF handguards that offer a weight savings. Check your barrel between the barrel nut and front sight base if it is thicker than the barrel in front of the sight than it is an HBAR and can be reprofiled to save some weight. I'm currently evaluating the KNS front sight, so far I have mixed feelings and need to get more time on it to offer a serious opinion. Good luck. |
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Posted: 10/11/2005 7:50:36 AM EDT
[#18]
Pencil barrel and lose the rail system. If the Magpul weighs more than the CAR stock, switch stocks. Keep a 20rd mag IN the gun, with 30s as backups.
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Posted: 10/11/2005 7:51:26 AM EDT
[#19]
That's silly (I hope your just kidding). Optimizing the weight of your equipment for what you need is always an advantage no matter how buff you are. If you save a pound on your rifle you can carry more ammo. 
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Posted: 10/11/2005 8:02:10 AM EDT
[#20]
From one LEO to another, sounds like you need to present to your Chief a proposal for a new sling. I, like you, am governed as to what I can carry, put on my AR and such, but there are no restrictions on the sling. After reading your posts, I get the feeling that you did not really want to alter your rifle... you need a new SLING! Good luck! Charlie 31 P.S. It seems to me that spending more money to lighten a rifle by mere ozs. will not solve your problem... The rifle will STILL seem heavy after 1 hour+ of holding it as you have stated you do... |
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Posted: 10/11/2005 8:25:05 AM EDT
[#21]
How to make an M4 LIGHTWEIGHT carbine heavier than the M16 it replaced:
My Current Issue M4- An/PEQ 2 Knights rail and foregrip M68 CCO Matech BUIS Sure fire 9XX what the hell ever nomenclature light, bright enough to signal a commercial airliner LMT stock Anyway, enough about that, back to your question. This is just my humble lowly opinion but here goes: Ditch the rail system, and if you need to lose more weight, get a set of DPMS glacier guards. Do you really need a light on the weapon? If so attach a small rail section to your M4 handguards, preferrably usa a carbon fiber light like the G2 nitrolon or one of M3 lights. Ditch the carry handle, get an LMT Fixed BUIS Get one of the CMMG 14.7+Permanent A2 flashider lightweight pencil barrels. Or a wilson chromelined from JT Dist. skip the CCO ( Close combat optic) Large ring, front sight press, or if you can spit on them, front sight press, it works!! If you must have a cco, get one of the Reflex II tritium powered CCOs. Lightest( I believe) Lose the Magpul stock. Use a standard M4 stock. Unless your one of the folks that find yourself saying "Dead Room Live!!" alot, do you really need all of the tactical ninja stuff on the wepon, or is it just kung fu bling? Thats about all I have to offer, im gonna go back in the woodline now. Best of luck to yah !! Oh, be careful with those trailer people, they can be real scary sometimes   |
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Posted: 10/11/2005 8:31:03 AM EDT
[#22]
DPMS Glacier Guards with hardware- 10.4 oz
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Posted: 10/11/2005 9:28:45 AM EDT
[#23]
Find a sling you like and make the a proposal to the powers that be. If you had 3 point slings you would be safer and able to stay alter for longer periods of time. Use real incidents to prove your point.
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Posted: 10/11/2005 9:57:55 AM EDT
[#24]
Yup. standard handguards (and ditch the liners if you want), standard CAR or M4 stock. Depending on your build and technique you might do well with a fixed stock, the cav arms A1 length stocks are pretty light. Barrel profiling would save you a few ounces, but expensive. The functionality of the light is well worth the added weight. |
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Posted: 10/11/2005 10:05:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Was taking a prone position an option? I'd have done that if it was. No reason to be right up next to the house to cover it, when you have a weapon that's extremely accurate at 100 yards or more. As for weight savings. Maybe a carbon fiber barrel would do the trick? ABS makes them. Link |
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Posted: 10/11/2005 11:35:30 AM EDT
[#26]
One thing to understand is there is a difference between making the gun lighter and making it more comfortable to hold at the ready for long periods of time. Switching out to a lighter stock will make the gun lighter; but it will also make the gun feel much more nose heavy and can also make it even more difficult to hold at the ready position for long periods of time.
Weight reduction in front of the barrel nut will usually have a much more noticeable effect than weight reduction aft of the barrel nut in my experience. Think of your rifle as a lever with the fulcrum at the barrel nut - part of holding the gun at the ready is keeping the barrel (one end of the lever) up - the less weight you have on the stock end of the rifle, the more force you have to apply to keep that lever up. There are two major places to save weight forward of the barrel nut and that is the barrel profile and the rail system. A Daniel Defense rail system uses an aluminium barrel nut and is actually lighter than plastic M4-handguards with heat shields if you use ladder panels. I'd also check your barrel profile and confirm it is an actual M4 profile underneat the handguards - a heavy profile here will weigh almost 8oz more than a real M4 profile and almost a pound more than a lightweight profile. Finally consider some formal instruction in using a carbine if you haven't already had some. How you hold the carbine and what muscle groups you use to support the weight can make a big difference in your level of comfort. Using a fighting stance and bringing the elbows in lets the big muscles in your shoulder and back do a lot of the work instead of making the smaller muscles in your arms carry the weight. |
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Posted: 10/12/2005 10:29:48 AM EDT
[#27]
Excellent post BR. Exactly. Go for a lighter profile barrel, or perhaps the carbon fiber one posted about, a light weight barrel nut and tube, like a Hiperform.
How much does your weapon weigh now? |
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Posted: 10/12/2005 11:07:42 AM EDT
[#28]
I don't think you can find a lighter railed HG than DD. Even CF is heavier after you add the 4 rails to them. It really is the hands down lightweight champion.
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Posted: 10/12/2005 12:37:35 PM EDT
[#29]
I've been assured by SMGLee that the URX is lighter than the DD. The problem is getting a URK installed on your AR. |
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Posted: 10/12/2005 1:00:34 PM EDT
[#30]
fixed it |
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Posted: 10/12/2005 6:36:12 PM EDT
[#31]
I like my Magpul stock and all, but my carbine is a whole half pound lighter with a regular 6-pos on it. The difference is like night and day.
Similarly, the rail I have on it adds a good bit of weight out where I can definitely feel it. My buddy has an identical carbine, except it has regular handguards and a regular 6-pos stock. I'd rather carry his around all day. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 5:07:39 AM EDT
[#32]
If you can live without optics and rails, which you can, don't underestimate a light barrel and a fixed handle upper. Simple, reliable, bomb proof, and light.
 You do want a light for LE work, and a good sling. But for most LE stuff you don't need much more. This one carries a lot easier every day then my M4 beast.  Both work well. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 5:48:06 AM EDT
[#33]
 seriously, the best idea is a great sling. You need a light, aimpoint, irons, etc., and there is not a real good way to lighten those. the rail maybe should be regular hand-guards, or go with the Surefire M900 or similar. many good ideas have come up already, though |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 6:21:59 AM EDT
[#34]
I recommend an IDF tactical sling, can be had on the Equipment Exchange for 16$. Best $16 you'll ever spend... barely have to "hold the gun", if you use the sling correctly, you pretty much just have to aim the gun, most of the weight is captured by the sling.
I'd also dump the stock, sell it on EE and buy more mags/ammo or something... also not a lot of people touched on the ammo you're using, 55g, 62g, etc., the mag size, and the mag type. I have some Okay mags that weigh like 2X as much as the black, teflon-coated mags I just picked up from www.cmmginc.com, might want to try that out. Most of all, stock and sling... you'll notice a big difference. But don't overlook the mags either. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 10:13:32 AM EDT
[#35]
Sorry for all the questions on someone elses thread, but I'm very close to buying my second DD system. If there is something available that is lighter than my DD 7.0, I'm interested. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 11:00:11 AM EDT
[#36]
Well that's the problem. The data I have from another user is the URX system is 8.9 ounces total, however the DD 7.0 is 8.5 ounces total. By "total" I mean that is the installed weight it adds to the system. So I have 1 of 4 possibilities. 1) The weight given to me for the URX is wrong (doubtful as it came from a ColdBlue post from 2 years ago). 2) They have reduced the weight of the URX even more since 2 years ago (which means my figure is out of date). 3) More of the URX's weight is closer to the barrel nut so it 'feels' lighter and balances better. 4) SMGLee was compareing the URX's weight to a steel barrel nut version of the DD 7.0 (an option that is available and adds about an ounce to the DD 7.0's weight) |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 12:06:17 PM EDT
[#37]
In order:
Irons Sling Light Optic I would not go lighter than an M4 profile. I've seen the super light barrels get bent too easily. A good sling and a VFG might help for long term hold. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 12:09:28 PM EDT
[#38]
 The Army used so-called 'superlight' barrels for 20 years on the AR (and for however long the M14 was issued), heck the current barrels are the same diameter under the handguards. The Army was jumping out of planes and fast roping out of helicopters with 'super light barrels' they didn't push for any increase in barrel diameter. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 12:27:18 PM EDT
[#39]
BucsFan said it in a nice way. Dont mean to get off track but are you keeping up with your weight training routine? The guys here already know that I am having trouble keeping good standing groups at 50 yds. It was said to me as well that I should work out. Well I already do, a lot and regularly. But to help you with your firearm weight dilemma, these guys have stated some great advice. FYI: I have yet to have to deploy my AR while on duty. I can tell you right now though; its one heavy bastard. I am counting on my physical/mental endurance and strength to get me through when it happens. Also, I cannot do anything anyways. Once you qual. with it, you gotta keep it that way (for the most part) until next time you qual. Hope this helps.
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Posted: 10/13/2005 10:01:06 PM EDT
[#40]
Pale_Rider, what were the people who susposedly bent those superlite barrels doing to bend them? Seriously, I would like to know where you saw one of them get bent, much less multiples of them. You would have to be useing the barrel for a crowbar, pole vaulting with it, or whacking the shit outta some trees with it, as in swinging it like a ball bat. Really, for my own personal knowledge, I wanna know in what instances you personally saw superlite barrels get bent.
Also, FWIW, any force that is enough to bend a superlite barrel, will also bend an M4 barrel just as easily, right there at that pre milled bending point, otherwise known as the grenade launcher cutout. Im definetly with Forest , Im raising the  flag on this one. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 11:08:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Prone was not an option. This was an older single wide mobile home, heavy brush less than 15 feet behind the house and junk inbetween house and brush. The side I was on had a storage building, so prevented us from being able to put any distance between us and the house and keep good eye on the back. I will be looking strongly at changing to a standard 6 pos stock for my duty weapon and keep the M93 on my playtime gun! I went Magpul when I built the gun, because it came HIGHLY recommended from others here! The last AR I had was quite a bit lighter. I will definately be staying with the 4 rail, will probably be changing to lighter mags also. I am using heavy steel mags, so I think I can save quite a bit of weight there. As always, alot of good advise and a few smart A$$E$! Allison |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 7:26:14 PM EDT
[#42]
Lots of great info in those paragraphs
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Posted: 11/4/2005 11:57:53 AM EDT
[#43]
We had a callout here two nights ago.
I was deployed less than ten feet from a guy outside his kitchen window. He had a knife only and did not even know I was there. I was basically in a high ready for about 4.5 hours. Changed foot and arm position several times to gain comfort. Crossed legs, spread legs, crossed arms ... Had a 20" A1 at the time and a nagging arm injury from training. Was getting tired after 4.5 hours and we ended it with less lethal rounds from a 12ga. and a Taser. A Gov't carbine would have been nice in that situation. |
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Posted: 11/4/2005 12:20:48 PM EDT
[#44]
I noticed at least on poster in another thread who was highly critical of people who put their VFG close to the magwell. The reasont hey do it is often because they fined it more comfortable for this type of work. I trained with a Ventura Co. California Deputy who was using an M16A1 with a spare mag and flashlight attacted. I was a little surprised at how much it weighed. If I wanted something light, I would get a short barrel with a DD rail and a scout light. Just taking the carry handle off and putting a folding BUIS on saves a lot of weight. Then, if you want, you can use a SOPMOD or M93 stock to balance it to the rear. Anyway, most of you that need to know this already do. Stay safe out there. |
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Posted: 11/4/2005 12:48:38 PM EDT
[#45]
My retro build is slowly gaining weight, but is still by far “light weight”. Thinking home defense, I recently added a Weaver mount to my HG’s and installed my Surefire G2. This little carbine is a dream to shoot and is practically “point n' shoot”! With the irons at 75m I can make a small propane bottle dance.
This rifle is perfect for extended carrying. 
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Posted: 11/4/2005 1:46:05 PM EDT
[#46]
Looks good to me. Wish I had had it two nights ago.
 Maybe the flat top Bushy version with an Aimpoint ... but otherwise call it good. |
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Posted: 12/22/2005 12:23:32 PM EDT
[#47]
The M4 barrel, which is one style in use by the military, has a larger diameter than the super light barrels I'm speaking of. I do not recall the diamter of the M16A1 barrels, but have seen several of them that were bent. I have heard from a couple of military armorers of soldiers using their M16's to set up their cots and bending the barrel (obviously not what it was intended for...and a stupid thing to do with something that is meant to save your life).
I have also seen a 16" s/l barrel that would not shoot to point of aim, even after the sights were moved all the way to one side. The owner can not account for why this happened. Granted, bending a barrel should never happen to a safe queen, but when moving quickly, in and out of vehicles and through doorways or through thick cover, shit happens. |
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