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Posted: 8/29/2005 1:53:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Um, what exactly is your question? If it's over 16", it's not considered a carbine, it's a rifle. You already stated the purposes of a rifle.
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Posted: 8/29/2005 1:57:03 PM EDT
[#2]
Do have a defining characteristic besides barrel length that makes a firearm a carbine?
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Posted: 8/29/2005 1:57:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Yes, but I can't remember what ones they were. If you are interested, I can dig, the one in particular I'm thinking of was an officer down south being shot at by a guy in house while the cruiser was in the roadway (LEO was outside the car). |
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Posted: 8/29/2005 1:58:17 PM EDT
[#4]
I think what he is asking is if there are any scenarios where LE or civilians [non military] have needed anything more than 16" in barrel.
I think... 
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Posted: 8/29/2005 2:00:30 PM EDT
[#5]
I'd like to hear that story if you dont mind finding it stickman. |
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Posted: 8/29/2005 2:01:05 PM EDT
[#6]
Dev, my colt 20" is ideal for me because I can use it for in the house, the woods, the plains. I think we've already talked about this
. I do like your carbine but I just like my 20 better along with the added velocity. I still want to see the spec on the rounds you shoot out of your Ar.
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Posted: 8/29/2005 2:05:13 PM EDT
[#7]
I really love shooting my 24". But it's not a carbine. If I want to shoot a carbine I will shoot my 16".
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Posted: 8/29/2005 2:12:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Well if you're asking about a defensive carbine, then I agree, a 16" or less is ideal. By defensive/all-purpose rifle is a 14.5" with perm. attached phantom. My 20" is a CMP build.
ETA: I believe a 11.5" SBR is the ideal home defense rifle. But if I could only have one, i'd want a 14.5" or 16"--you never know, society collapse, zombies, etc. |
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Posted: 8/29/2005 2:17:16 PM EDT
[#9]
I think that 18" could work fine.
If you look at the rifle gas system, there is often a 24" barrel used in varmint configuration, and the gas port is around 13" from the bolt-end of the chamber. That gives about 11" of barrel length after the gas port, roughly. In a carbine, the gas port is around 7.75" from the bolt end of the chamber, and with an 18" barrel, you'd have 10.25" of barrel length after the gas port, approximately. Of course, normally with the longer barrels, a longer gas system is used. But with the above guidelines, if you had to use a carbine-length gas system, then an 18" barrel should be within normal boundaries for AR15 practice. You'd have alot of dwell time with this much barrel length after the gas port, so there could be some excess gassing into the upper receiver issues associated with it. I never actually tried it, so I can't say if it would be objectionable. Being only 2" longer than a 16", leads me to think it would work out fine. I still think you'd be better with a mid or rifle length, though. ETA: I may have misinterpreted the question, and if the question is why do we need anything longer than 16" for defensive purposes, we probably don't. |
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Posted: 8/29/2005 2:18:34 PM EDT
[#10]
That's one of the reasons I have a 11.5" Colt_SBR.  |
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Posted: 8/29/2005 4:43:11 PM EDT
[#11]
i have an armalite m15a2cb 16in with midlength gas sys and as far as handyness
goes i love it.... i dont think i could hit any better with a 20in w/o glass with my eyes.. |
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Posted: 8/29/2005 5:00:09 PM EDT
[#12]
The SRO at Columbine HS attempted without success to hit Harris and Klebold at 75 yards with his sidearm, without success.
Of course, I consider the range of a shorty to be 300 meters plus, even if the projectiles aren't fragmenting. If it were not for the NFA, I think a 10.5 or 11.5 would be ideal for civilians. Longest reported self defense shooting in US history was estimated at 1500 yards--a single shot kill by a fellow named Billy Dixon, who was shooting at Natives with a buffalo gun. I don't know if this incident matters in the grand scheme of things, however. 
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Posted: 8/29/2005 5:36:49 PM EDT
[#13]
I think you'd have to go with a bullpup to get a longer than 16" bbl and still have a carbine.
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Posted: 8/29/2005 5:40:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Bayonet combat.
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Posted: 8/30/2005 2:33:50 AM EDT
[#15]
Since I mostly collect milsurps, to me a regulat AR isa carbine. Compared to a Garand, Mauser, '03 Springfield, it is nice compact package even in its "rifle" configuration.
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Posted: 8/30/2005 4:56:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Wow it was late and I botched my post. I was supposed to be longer than 11.5" or why would someone NEED a 16" barreled carbine or longer? Assuming no SBR laws of course. I have shot everything from 20" Crane SPR 18", 16" 14.5" etc. and cant think of why I would need a barrel longer than 11.5" for self defense or LEO use. The only reason I can begin to wrap my brain around is the noise of SBR weapons but the Krink flash hider starts to make that less of an issue too.
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Posted: 8/30/2005 5:01:14 AM EDT
[#17]
I use 75 grain Hornady OTM bullets. Black Hills or TAP. My point is has there been a self defense shooting at long range by a civilian since the AR has existed? Meaning not against Indians over a hundred years ago in the old west, the Alamo, etc. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 5:32:23 AM EDT
[#18]
Since I went totally the wrong way in my last post, and completely misunderstood the question, I'll try again.
I think that the short barrels are just fine for close-quarters defense, and on many/most people's property sizes. Where I live, it is a bit more wide-open, and even on my own property, I have a quarter-mile of territory which I might need to cover. And if a guy with a hunting rifle went off his nut and started shooting on my property, I might need to defend it at a distance. It could happen. Everybody around here has a hunting rifle, and all it takes is one nut-case. The main reason why most people have 16" or longer, is that they are limited by the laws, and don't want to do the SBR paperwork, for whatever reason. As long as the laws are the way they are, 16" or longer will be the most common configurations. Also, since I have a quick-barrel-change system, it is easy for me to have short, medium, or long barrels to use in my gun whenever I want to. Or other calibers. So for me, having more options of barrels quickly available is something that I like. I realize that most people are limited to only one barrel per upper, though. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 5:49:10 AM EDT
[#19]
But would you not want a 7.62 for long range defensive precision work? In my experience 5.56 gets tossed around by the wind so much its practical accuracy is much less than 7.62 and the 5.56 at long range is severly lacking in the terminal ballistics department in comparison as well. Would a short AR10 not make more sense in that role?
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Posted: 8/30/2005 11:38:21 AM EDT
[#20]
Hey, I knew the Adobe Walls incident was irrelevant before I posted it, but ask for an anecdote, and ye shall receive  ETA: When the ex Marine (Whitman?) climbed a clock tower at UT, any succesful shot at him by a civilian would have been approximately 400 yards. With an AR, that means you're limited by your optic and ability, not your rifle. A guy with a short dot on a 10.5 could probably make that hit. A guy with an iron sighted 20" rifle probably coudnt. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 4:04:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Standard A2 sights on an M16/AR15 could do 400 Meter man target easily... The Marines train that way every day. No Expert |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 4:28:20 PM EDT
[#22]
DevL,
Sure, a 7.62Nato would be a better hitting package for intermediate to longer range. But, I don't have any of my M1A rifles anymore. I decided to go to 300Magnum for my long range bolt gun, and keep the AR for short to intermediate range work. Just a decision on my part to simplify the weapons selection complement. In most circumstances, I would have my AR in hand for defensive purposes, and if I needed to shoot a little longer out with it, I would do so. I'm basically depending on the AR to do all the ranges out to where I would employ my bolt gun, which would typically be outside 400 yards, because I sure don't want to get into a CQB situation with a 15 pound bolt action 300 magnum with a scope and a 28" barrel. This doesn't mean the AR15 is ideal for that 400 yard purpose, but it could suffice. Maybe it's just that I'm a long range shooter at heart, and I feel like I need some range capability, or I'm not happy. In any case, I do agree that for most circumstances, a short barrel AR will do just fine with the proper bullets, and I would have no hesitation about feeling well armed with it. In the real civilian defensive world, there would be very few, if any, engagements outside what a 11.5" barrel could easily handle. My decision was based on the fact that my M1A rifles, while very accurate and pretty powerful, were too heavy and bulky for me to carry around with a full load out anymore, since I'm not young anymore. The AR15 will now be my primary weapon. I like to be able to configure it how I want for what I'm doing with it. Maybe younger guys can carry a 14 pound scoped M1A Super-Match around easily all day, but it is too much for me now. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 5:01:41 PM EDT
[#23]
Sure, known distance, on a full sized target. I have seen Marines shoot their service weapons on UKD targets of approx. 400m, and they didn't do as well as shooters with optics. Shooting at Camp Perry, Parris Island and MCRD San Diego is no comparison to UKD shooting under serious time stress. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 7:34:40 PM EDT
[#24]
Self defense? LEO? What the hell are you talking about? My Glock is for self defense. My 20" A2 is for war. Note that we also haven't been invaded, hence the lack of long shots. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 7:54:18 PM EDT
[#25]
I can think of bunches reasons to have more than 16" barrels, 16+" barrels that sling 7.62mm
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Posted: 8/30/2005 8:26:16 PM EDT
[#26]
In Edmond, OK about 3-4 years ago, a guy with a history of mental illness and who was off of his meds twisted off, and began a shooting rampage. He walked down the street with an M1 garand, shooting and killing several people who were doing yardwork in a residential area. A patrol officer responded (a former member of thier tac team), and was first on scene. He located the suspect quickly (BG was walking down the middle of the road with the rifle still firing at people at random), and hopped out of his patrol car. He only had his Glock 21, and he fired 2 rounds at the active shooter at a range of 75 yards. One round missed, the other dropped the bad guy with a hit to the pelvis. The bad guy was still alive and trying to clear a malfunction with his rifle when another officer (a SWAT sniper armed w/ an AR-15 carbine) arrived and stuck a .223 winchester ballistic silvertip behind his ear at about 40 yards. This was all captured on video of the first officer's dash cam. Great shooting and great teamwork on the part of both guys. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 8:56:15 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
ETA: When the ex Marine (Whitman?) climbed a clock tower at UT, any succesful shot at him by a civilian would have been approximately 400 yards. With an AR, that means you're limited by your optic and ability, not your rifle. A guy with a short dot on a 10.5 could probably make that hit. A guy with an iron sighted 20" rifle probably coudnt.[/quote] I could easily make a 400 yd shot.  10 clicks up 2 left Whitman wasn't doing much shooting after people showed up with scoped hunting rifles and put up some suppressive fire forcing him to keep his head down till the guy climbed up the tower and blasted him with a shotgun it would actually be harder with a dot at 400 because it would obscure the target and most people probably wouldn't have a 400 zero for a DOT scope. |
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Posted: 8/30/2005 11:05:10 PM EDT
[#28]
Tangeant, I am talking about a partly obscured target, not a full sized one. Sitting in a dark hole, making it impossible to distinguish the target from his background while using iron sights. Also, its UKD, so sight adjustments aren't dead on. My dot covers 16 inches at that distance (less than a front sight post) and I would set it on top of his shoulders to account for distance.
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Posted: 8/31/2005 5:42:38 AM EDT
[#29]
Well the discussion is about reality. Thinking a country will invade the US and you may use a 20" AR to fight with is a bit silly. If you are talking about our won govt you would be mowed down quikly if you did anything more than use a bolt gun in a sniper type role. Noone will be doing any "war" in the US in my lifetime so its not a concern. LEO use is a reality for me and so is self defense. That is why I have ARs and why I asked someone to give me some cases of long range LEO shootings. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 5:45:04 AM EDT
[#30]
Thank you. Exactly what I was looking for. Can anyone find an LEO engagement over 75 yards for a non sniper? |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 6:29:20 AM EDT
[#31]
You might also read through the Blackwater newsletter. I think one of their guys (as a private citizen carrying) engaged a mugger from about 85yds with a pistol (IIRC he didn't realize it was that far with the adrenaline dump; but made the shot anyway)
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Posted: 8/31/2005 8:55:40 AM EDT
[#32]
How do you get mugged at 85 yards?
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:20:37 AM EDT
[#33]
It's an easy question to ask when you live in a state that allows them or belong to an LEO organization that allows the use of them.
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:33:44 AM EDT
[#34]
Maybe th shooter wasn't the one getting mugged. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 7:28:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Its easy to mistake a joke, prank, acting of a scene or misinterpret something as a mugging at 85 yards. I think that makes more of a case for magnifeid optics and a precision shot to the head than the need for a longer barrel. Interesting though... too bad there is no way to cooberate it.
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Posted: 8/31/2005 8:14:02 PM EDT
[#36]
How would you see his shoulders ! 
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Posted: 8/31/2005 8:29:27 PM EDT
[#37]
I want the added velocity, and the storage in the buttstock
my 20"a2 is perfect for what I want
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Posted: 8/31/2005 9:37:28 PM EDT
[#38]
DevL,
thanks for this question. I asked the same thing on another forum awhile back and was told lots of reasons why 16"+ was just as good. IMHO, a shorter barrel just handles better inside the house. I can get through doorways with my non-NFA M4 (14.5+phantom) pretty well, BUT I can get through them more easily with my 11.5" SBR. They both have the same sight radius (irrelevant if you have some sort of optic), and velocity is more than adequate at the ranges I'd be engaging someone at -- inside my home, or in my yard. The only semi-legit argument against using an SBR for self-defense is the civil liability concern. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 9:44:11 PM EDT
[#39]
Well..wouldn't a TAP from 14.5" or 16" carbine fragment more "dramatically" at same range?
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:11:45 PM EDT
[#40]
Yes, but I believe that the handiness is worth it. BTW, I am not saying that the 10.5 or 11.5 is some wonderweapon that shoots long distances as well as bigger guns. If an SPR still hits hard enough at 700m, then a 10.5 with the same ammo ought to work fine at 350m. |
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Posted: 9/1/2005 1:18:42 AM EDT
[#41]
If an autority on the use of carbines in combat like Larry Vickers
tells me that no other 10.5" upper than the HK416 is reliable enough for serious use (look here), then I listen...
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Posted: 9/1/2005 3:22:57 AM EDT
[#42]
Hey Devl,
here's another example of law enforcement engaging a target at 70 yards. It occurred at Fairchild Air Force Base: "Survivors Remember Fairchild Shooting Anniversary Survivors are remembering the 10-year anniversary of a shooting spree that killed four people and injured nearly two dozen at Fairchild Air Force Base. A memorial service held on Friday paid respects to the shooting victims. The gunman, former airman Dean Melberg, sought revenge against the doctors who recommended his discharge from the Air Force for mental health problems. Dean Melburg was eventually killed from 70 yards away, a distance unheard of for a handgun. Fairchild doctors say the setup for the base's mental health center is much different than it was 10 years ago." The MP that took the shot was using his M-9 Beretta and had braced it on a nearby bicycle to make the shot. (This is what I heard at a Firearms Instructor Course anyway). Here's the direct link to see it yourself. http://www.kxly.com/common/printStory.asp?id=37382 This is the longest engagement I have heard of with a pistol. |
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Posted: 9/1/2005 4:36:43 AM EDT
[#43]
Larry Vickers has probably not used a LW piston system which, to me, seems superior to the HK system. I am also doing a 11.5" barreled upper not 10.5" to maximize the usefull range of the rifle. I am left wondering what I would use a 14.5" 16" or longer barrel or upper for at this point, thus my question. I believe pretty strongly I should move on to an AR10 if I want longer range use with a non NFA barrel length. |
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Posted: 9/1/2005 9:49:23 AM EDT
[#44]
Ideally I'd use an 11.5" for defense, but NFA laws are a pain, so I'm content to use 16".
Not to mention it's cool to have a Neil Mccauley gun |
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