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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:40:33 AM EDT
[#1]
Generally speaking a 14.5" barrel with an A2 FH won't be 16"+ legal limit.
Interestingly enough, I measured a Colt 14.5" barrel to closed bolt and it measured at 14 3/4". Go figure. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:42:11 AM EDT
[#2]
??????????? what was that???????????? someone should contest that.
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:47:56 AM EDT
[#3]
Yup - as a general rule, if you have a 14.5" barrel, you need a phantom-length FS to make it legal (when perm attached). Some companies (CMMG comes to mind) make a 14.7" barrel if you want to use a regular A2 FS(perm. attached) (but as mongo pointed out, maybe some 14.5" barrels are really a little longer - but you'd have to measure carefully to be sure. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:50:46 AM EDT
[#4]
14.75" + an A2 would definitely put you over 16", but if I were a BATFE agent, I could definitely tell a 14.5" M4 barrel from a 16" M4 barrel and I would definitely investigate that rifle, if I ever saw it. The risk of hassle is too much for me, so I put a Vortex on it, when I had it built as a complete rifle. The barrel is still in my safe right now.
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:51:15 AM EDT
[#5]
Generally, 16.1" is the shortest you should safely go. If you close your bolt and insert a dowel down the bore until it reaches the bolt-face, you can mark the dowel, remove it, and measure it. That will be your legal barrel length, assuming your FS is permanently attached. If it isn't 16.1" or more, you have an illegal SBR and need to resolve that ASAP.
There are a number of muzzle devices that will bring a 14.5" barrel out to legal length. The most popular are: - Phantom - Vortex - Kurt at KKF's extended A2 FS - Gem-Tech Bi-Lock FS All of these would need to be permanently attached. ADCO does a lot of this work for AR15.com folks. -Troy |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 8:54:00 AM EDT
[#6]
The A2 is permanently attatched, so I guess I'll go get a dowel and check it out.
Does the Vortex come in black or only silver? Thanks for your help. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 9:01:12 AM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 8/15/2005 9:37:31 AM EDT
[#8]
The Vortex, like almsot every other FS is black colored. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 10:07:01 AM EDT
[#9]
If you like the traditional style of the A2 FH check with Talon Arms. They have an extended A2 FH made by Sabre Defence that is just slightly longer and will also do the job you're looking for at a lower cost that the KKF A3 Mil-Spec.
It's not a bad recommendation to exceed the minimum but I'm not sure what you base this statement on beyond that. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 10:16:23 AM EDT
[#10]
I have never seen a silver Vortex... why did you think its silver? Got a link or pic? |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 10:21:29 AM EDT
[#11]
Not all rulers and measuring tapes are the EXACT same length - would suck to be off by .1" and be a felon. I think it's just a CYA safety margin, not a legal requirement. |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 11:08:26 AM EDT
[#12]
OK, let me try to explain what I found out the other day. I took a new 14.5 inch barrel without a f/h on it, installed a bolt and inserted a rod down the barrel. I marked and measured with a measuring tape. I (burned) one inch and started measuring the rod from 2 inches. That way you don’t get any error from the very end of the tape. The actual length came out 1/8 inch past 14.5 inches. On the bolt, I measured the distance from the face of the lugs on the bolt to the face of the recesses area that the brass sets in and it is 1/8th inch. What I am saying here is that when you measure with a rod down the barrel you are including the 1/8th inch length that is recessed into the face of the bolt. Because I know that the barrel is new and is a 14.5 inch m4 barrel, I am confident that the measurement should start at the face of the lugs. Just subtract 1/8 inch from the measurement you mark on the rod. Ill add a picture.
here you can see the recesses area.  |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 11:37:08 AM EDT
[#13]
do this,
jam nut I made from cutting a a2 f/h and a little work with a file. Havent pinned it yet. Comes out to be just a hair past 16.  |
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Posted: 8/15/2005 11:37:44 AM EDT
[#14]
.
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Posted: 8/16/2005 7:50:29 AM EDT
[#15]
I've got to give you bonus points for creativity by cutting that other flash hider down and using the threaded portion as an extension. Never seen that done before but it's not too bad.
Well, it's yours and I suppose you're entitled to measure it any way you like but if the goal is to meet the legal requirement its done the way Troy described earlier in this thread as well as several other people have said in another thread. Here is a description of the procedure as found in 27 C.F.R. Part 179.11 Meaning of Tems Firearm (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as mdified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (h) (omitted) ...For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breach, or breach block when closed and the rifle or shotgun is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center of the bore. |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 7:54:57 AM EDT
[#16]
Interesting. So I could "legally" pin an A2 on my 14.75" barrel. You won't see me do that, but it is interesting. |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 9:30:58 AM EDT
[#17]
Provided the flash hider is a permanent part of the barrel and the barrel is not less than 16 inches I know of no reason you couldn't, unless you have a state law that is different from federal. |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 9:45:26 AM EDT
[#18]
It's like I stated above, I can recognize the difference between a 14.5" M4 barrel and a 16" M4 barrel. I would suspsect there are law enforcement officials out there that can do the same. I don't want the hassle. My experience is the 14.5" + permanent FH is harder to assemble/disassemble and gives me nothing that a 16" with a nonpermanent FH can't give me and more. YMMV. |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 9:53:08 AM EDT
[#19]
Doesn't seem to be any different than the CMMG rifle that is sold as a 14.7" barrel with a permanently attached A2. (If I understood you correctly). Given that precedent, I don't think I'd be hesitant to do it, myself. |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 11:27:48 AM EDT
[#20]
Bah....a lousy 1.5" more isn't going to severely hinder your CQC experience. If anything, you will get an extra 50 yards of "frag" range out of that 223. If you could care less about the extra 50 yards of range, then even at 15 yards you still have more velocity, which will amount to more violent fragmentation, which *should* translate to more effectiveness. Hell, boys in Iraq are clearing rooms with 20" rifles. Boys in WWII did it with Garands.
If you are seriously bent on being short for maximum CQC convenience and ease, then $200, some paperwork and you can get a shorty commando barrel. BTW, most guys are right here. Don't argue. Close a bolt on the barrel. Insert a dowel. Mark it. That is your barrel length. That is how the ATF is going to do it. And that is all that counts. |
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Posted: 8/16/2005 11:41:17 AM EDT
[#21]
True enough, but there is a distinct difference in the profile of a 14.5" M4 barrel and a 16" M4 barrel, particularly the area between the M4 cut and the FH. I can recognize a 14.5" from a long way off. I just don't want the extra potential attention, from whomever feels the need to extend that attention to me. And as I've stated here until I'm blue in the face, the short barrel with permanently attached FH is so severly overrated. That extra 1"+ isn't going to hurt anybody in any application. |
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