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Posted: 7/30/2005 4:40:50 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 7/30/2005 5:43:18 PM EDT
[#2]
Your position sounds good for field shooting, so work on your trigger control. Trigger control is the key when shooting offhand. Like you said, the front sight wobbles around. You can't stop that. What you need to be able to do is reflexively fire the shot when the sight is on target. What most people do is
front sight comes to rest on target brain sees sight picture is good brain tells finger sight begins to move off target shot is fired....and is off. shooting offhand needs to be reflexive, your sightpicture is goodBANG, the guns immediately goes off. want to improve your offhand, take a .22 rimfire and some smallbore targets and post them at 50 yards. Fire 10 shot strings per target. This will help, but is work. Then move to shooting with your AR at 200 yards offhand. Work at it, by shooting 5 or 10 round strings, one round at a time. May not be pretty at first, but you will improve. Get so you can snap shoot at 200 yards and them 50 and 75 yard shots will be easy. There's not always time to take a knee or go prone, nor does terrain always allow. Learning to shoot, in each position, will make you a much more rounded shooter. Remember, improving your marksmanship skills is hard work. Sometimes it don't love you back. Keep right on working though, cause unlike many you seem to be on the right track. Good to see. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 5:56:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for the info guys. I have been thinking of getting a 22lr upper for my ar, it souns like that will help.
-jls7 |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 6:06:41 PM EDT
[#4]
I dont know the name of this but it is pretty much cradling your rifle. Place the magazine well into your left elbows pocket and wrap your hand back around to the butt stock. Pull the rifle in tight to your chest and bend your neck to look down the sights. Use your right hand to work the selector switch and pull the trigger. I have looked for a picture but really no luck. It is difficult to get in first but is very acurate steady. I dont recommend it for moving targets or for transitioning to other targets.
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Posted: 7/30/2005 6:51:36 PM EDT
[#5]
If you have time to engage and can't get down to kneel, sit, or lie down, adopt this position. It still works w/o the shooting coat. In fact, I've seen pics of Marines in Iraq assuming that exact same position, so please no one tell me "that target shit has no place in combat".
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:10:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Looks like your fingers would get blasted by the spent casing... How does that work?
-Jls7 |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:17:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Don't try to learn how to shoot from the internet... if you want to improve you skill, get some good quality instruction from someone in the know and then take what you learned and practiced....
and no, that Shit really does not have a place in combat. The only do that because the Marine Corp still teaches their Marines that stance so they can hit a "Bullseye" on a Manicured green grass covered Rifle range to score an Xring. and these guys like anyone, will revert back to their level of training. don't make it right, just makes it what it is. Flame suit on..... 
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:25:58 PM EDT
[#8]
Bend your fingers down some more. Or hold on the bottom of the magazine. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:27:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Show me a better position for when you have to nail someone farther than 100 yards away and there's no rest for your rifle and you can't sit, kneel, or lie. It isn't needed often, but the point of being a well rounded rifleman is to be able to hit whatever you need to, however far it is, with whatever you have to work with at the moment. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:28:40 PM EDT
[#10]
Stable.
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:34:21 PM EDT
[#11]
Q. What do you call someone shooting standing in combat? A. A casualty. Shamelessly stolen from Pat Rogers. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 7:45:18 PM EDT
[#12]
I only utilize 1 offhand firing position with the carbine, and I use it from 1m out.
Although I try to drop to sitting or kneeling if the target is more than 100m out. I can get into kneeling literally as fast as I can fall down, earning me the nickname "Gumby" but it takes some time to get out of. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 8:43:07 PM EDT
[#13]
That's a cute quote, but I think most people misunderstand what Pat Rogers is trying to say. That's an easy thing to do with that entire article; in one breath Pat Rogers criticizes the modifications the USMC advocated for the M16A2, and praises the USMCs war fighting capabilities in the next. Anyhow, the offhand position is another tool in the toolbox. While it may not be something you use in combat often, it's important to learn for a couple reasons. A proper offhand stance allows the rifleman to make effective accurate fire when there is no available support. Most of the time you'd want to use cover and such, but if there is no cover available and you don't have time to take a knee then having this skill to draw on is convenient. Also, and more importantly, it teaches a sound foundation of marksmanship that a shooter can draw from when dealing with more advanced concepts. If you posses a mastery of position shooting then you also posses competent rifle handeling skills. These skills easily transfer to other arenas, whether it is close quarters battle or long range engagements. USMC doctrine directly reflects this, as well as the marksmanship units maintained by every branch of service. |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 8:46:55 PM EDT
[#14]
Always assume the most supported position you can relative to the urgency of engaging the target.
If there are objects or terrain you can use to support your rifle, such as a tree, or boulder, use those as well. on another note, I like the "capitalist oppressor" sticker on the rifle pictured above, where can I get one? |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 8:49:24 PM EDT
[#15]
I like to also add that some of the innovation we are seeing with the M16 comes directly from the competitive shooting community. Things like 77gr match bullets, free floating hand guards, the resurgence of two stage triggers, custom grips (the sierra precision grip especially), moly coated bullets (mk264), precision stainless steel barrels, set screw front sight bases, yellow sunglasses (just kidding), and so on.
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Posted: 7/30/2005 9:10:30 PM EDT
[#16]
+1
whenever possible, get some support |
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Posted: 7/30/2005 9:14:53 PM EDT
[#17]
The Hot Topic store in the Nový Smíchov Mall has them. If you can't find them in AZ let me know and I'll send you one next time I'm there. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 7:10:57 AM EDT
[#18]
Priginally from Warren-hpf
While I would agree that the civilian shooting world has helped developt a lot of good stuff for the Military, The NRA Highpower offhand stance is not one of them. it is an Old atiquated throwback from the AMU and it is not what is being taught in BCT anymore. Just because you see an 18 year old Marine Pvt doing it does not make it a good technique that should be continued. I saw a Pic of a Young Army Soldier with a Beta mag on his weapon once... Sure did'nt make it right. I can see you drank a little of the Highpower Kool-Aid...... That's OK, I like Highpower too and shoot it occasionally..  Originally from SWO_daddy
it's called prone, I can't think of one scenario where a shooter would have to fire beyond a 100meters and not be able to go kneeling or prone. if it's an urban, built up area, 100meter plus shots are gonna be few and far between. if it's out in the open where a long range shot would present itself, their would be limited cover which means plenty of space to kneel or go prone. offhand is the Most unstable of all the shooting positions and would be the least desired for a longer range shot. Ask yourself why it's still in use for highpower. Old traditions die hard. In all my years of shooting, I have never used the "Classic" offhand position with the exception of Highpower. works great at Camp Perry....... |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 8:32:14 AM EDT
[#19]
Go low and get as much support as possible, as has been stated. Sometimes offhand can be done, just depends on the situation.
SWO: I'd like to know where to get the sticker as well. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 8:56:44 AM EDT
[#20]
Pat-You crack me up! My last drink was 1971. And I sweat out the remaining toxin at Boone County over the last three summers.
In the old days, I was taught to remove my strong side hand from the rifle to change magazines. I have since learned that it is more efficient to maintain a firing grip and change mags with the support hand. This did not come from Service Rifle competition; it is a different worldview. Sitting is great when shooting from a prepared position but tough when trying to move. Example: during the 100-yard steel shoot-off Friday in Pat's class I forgot I was fighting and took a deep breath, exhaled half and came down on the target. My opponent put down the plate as I was exhaling. Never again. That was the last toxin to be sweat out. I hope. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 9:09:46 AM EDT
[#21]
It's possible for many responses to be correct.
Getting low, or going prone my be a completely bad idea in certain situations, while standing in other situations might also be the wrong thing to do. All methods have their place. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 9:25:00 AM EDT
[#22]
Harv;
You wrote: "I can't think of one scenario where a shooter would have to fire beyond a 100meters and not be able to go kneeling or prone." Just goes to show you that you have a limited imagination. Just a thought, but I don't recall reading in the original post that the shooter was looking for a "combat" stance, but simply wanting to hit out to 300 yards from a standing position. He was offered a good stance for that, and you started to belch, without saying "excuse me." I'm one of those guys who likes to answer the poster's question and not try to tell him what he really meant or why all the other advice doesn't meet my standards. Certainly, there are better combat positions and they can be assumed fairly quickly. On the other hand, there are tons of times when there is no rest available and vegetation or other obstructions prohibit prone, sitting or kneeling. There are times when you just have to stand there and return fire, or run! Running's fine, unless you are covering someone's butt. There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning any classic marksman's position. Learning them all will make one a better shooter. That's not kool-aid my friend. It's marksmanship and I learned it from guys who would probably krinkle their eyes up and grin knowingly after you quit talking. You might recognize them. They have things like "Combat Infantry" badges on their tunics, along with Silver Stars and Purple Hearts. But you're welcome to tell them they are wrong, anytime you are feeling salty. Dan C |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 10:29:02 AM EDT
[#23]
Can we talk about this without getting nasty?
Everyone has been making great points, but if you take the original post at face value, then the pic posted by SWO_daddy is the answer. It's great that we can discuss the value of offhand in combat, etc, but there is no reason for name calling or sarcasm. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 4:47:18 PM EDT
[#24]
It is an answer, not THE answer. Combat Jack also has an answer: the fighting stance. It is on two feet and is, therefore, standing. Face square to the target, 80% of weight on the balls of the feet, head erect, support hand pulling the mag well or VFG into the torso, elbows down, knees bent, with center of gravity slightly forward. Like lumpy said: stable. Tougher to do with an A2 stock but not impossible. For those requiring REAL EXPERIENCE as a prerequisite to posting, this past week I watched a fortysomething female High Power shooter do it with an A2 stock. BTW, free markets are not oppressive. |
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Posted: 7/31/2005 5:41:15 PM EDT
[#25]
originally from Dan C
Gee Dan, You I'm glad you learned all those Marksmenship traits from guys with CIB's on their tunics. (Tunics?? What are you in the Germany Army??) But the one skill you need to practice is reading comprehension. no where in my post did I respond with "Combat " to the original poster. I told him not to try and learn to shoot from the internet.  I responded to a Comment that SWO_daddy made that I disagreeded with. And yea, I'm a little salty, I figure 21 years with Uncle Sam gives me that right to have an opinion on Shooting stances and marksmenship, but then again you know what opinion's are like. And that's why I believe you can't learn to shoot off the internet. now if you'll excuse me, I have to go iron my Tunic......
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Posted: 8/1/2005 12:05:40 PM EDT
[#26]
a stable rest and good cover are a winning combination when things go deadly wrong.
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Posted: 8/2/2005 1:18:45 PM EDT
[#27]
Harve;
Re-read your original post and see if this phrase doesn't appear in it: "and no, that Shit really does not have a place in combat." Then, you come on back and lecture me on reading for comprehension. That is, if you have finished burning your service dress with your iron. The guys I'm talking about actually used the term "tunic" but they served before either of us were born! And while we're at it, do you see anywhere in the originator's post where he was asking someone to teach him to "shoot?" He was asking advice on a stance, but a salty guy like you just has to let him know he need to go get some instructions. I'm sure you are hell on wheels with anything that shoots. Regards; Dan |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 2:04:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Sticker Junkie used to stock them. Now I guess you can make yourself a bunch for $25. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 3:05:38 PM EDT
[#29]
I think it best to learn one offhand stance and use it. If you can't hit with one offhand stance, I don't know that you'll hit with another. Besides, I can get into the fighting stance and fire two or three shots before someone can assume the proper slung up position as taught to competetive shooters. So even if I don't hit, the a55hole on the other end is gonna get his head down.
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Posted: 8/2/2005 3:58:40 PM EDT
[#30]
re: traditional highpower offhand stance versus the current "combat" stance.
Could it be that both are tools for different situations? I'd imagine the highpower offhand stance is great when used for hunting. But I do have to agree that the traditional offhand stance generally leaves you too exposed to enemy fire for my taste. What are you going to be shooting at, in what conditions? If you're running around the woods shooting squirrels or deer or other animals, I'd think highpower type positions are excellent. If you're getting ready to go to Fallujah, well that's a different story....... |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 4:01:03 PM EDT
[#31]
jls7,the snap shot is the way i have alway;'s done it.But you have to know your trigger realy well,#2 a hair trigger help's that method ALOT.Also what the other guy said about mastering 200yrds then moving to 100 also work's well to."for me" hope this is of some help.
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Posted: 8/2/2005 4:02:01 PM EDT
[#32]
It's the other way around. In a target stance, your body is 90 degrees away from the line of fire, presenting the smallest area (your side) to the target. The combat stance, OTOH, exposes your entire torso in the direction you are shooting. A modified HP stance is easier to use for shooting using a wall corner as cover. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 4:05:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Shooting offhand in competition does not involve a sling. And assuming a modified target shooting stance can be done in seconds by someone used to it. Since the purpose is minute of man instead of minute of angle, there is not need to go through the careful position building process used at the range. Muscle memory takes over and you get into a position that is close enough for government work. It might be helpful if you know somthing about what you criticize. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 4:08:29 PM EDT
[#34]
Let me be blunt. The original poster asked what was a proper shooting stance for 100 to 300 yards. Those who advocate a "combat" stance will be sorely disappointed with their lack of hits anywhere beyond 50 yards.
Hitting a man sized target at 200 yards using the standing stance they teach in "tactical" classes? Bullshit, ain't gonna happen. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 6:38:05 PM EDT
[#35]
originally from SWO_daddy
I told my self that I would not dig this hole deeper, but this is completly wrong. obviously you have never worn Body Armor with SAPI plates. The whole point of Showing your full frontal to the bad guy is to present your Armor to him. if you take a Bullet that just misses your SAPI plate it has a good chance of only hitting one major organ. Turning 90degrees to the side (where you have no plate and week armor) exposes all you major Organs so 1 bullet can hit a kidney,lung,liver and heart all at one time to the weak link in your Armor. (This is called tactics which will not get you a clean score on the 200 yd offhand) because you drank the Highpower kool-aid, and follow the no sling rule, it never occured to you to suggest to the OP to use a sling to assit him in acheiving a more steady platform. (WHY?? cuase it say's so in the Highpower rule book....)
obviously you need a heavy shooting coat and The classic Highpower stance to achieve hits beyond 50 yds, but it's funny I never have a problem hitting steel out to 200 consistently. Their is just so much wrong with your statement.Just becuase your skill level does not allow it,please don't call bullshit to other's. You are the epitomy of the "yellow glass " crowd that believes all marksmenship challenges can be solved with Highpower techniques and that is just not the case. My original advice to the poster still stands. you can't learn to shoot off the internet. Decide what type of shooting discipline your enjoy or want to learn, and then seek someone qualified to teach you. |
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Posted: 8/2/2005 6:54:09 PM EDT
[#36]
Originally from Dan C
I'm feeling extra Salty tonight so I kill two Birds with one stone... So seeking Intruction on how to become proficient in something is a bad thing??? So I guess these "Tunic" wearing Buddies of yours who served before You and I were born learned their marksmanship skills from a picture on the internet!!!  I'm afraid to find out how the guys from Delta Airlines are learning to fly planes!!! they must have a pretty good website.... Your right though, what was I thinking trying to off this guy some good solid advise. I was unlucky in life I guess, because I had to learn my skill through quality intruction and repetition and LOT's of practice cause they did'nt have the internet to teach me. And finally. in all my years, I have heard of Blouse,fatigues,battle dress,uniform,shirt, but never heard any uniform in the U.S. military referred to as a Tunic....must be a Navy thing.....
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Posted: 8/2/2005 7:41:05 PM EDT
[#37]
HOLY BITCHFEST BATMAN!!! I posted this topic to get some advice on a shooting stance but it has morphed into a salt throwing contest with sandy vaginas. I like what I am seeing here. Continue, for my Comedy Central was cancelled...
-Jls7 |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 7:02:57 AM EDT
[#38]
Harv;
You keep skirting the issue. The man didn't ask for shooting instructions in general. You acted as if he didn't know the muzzle from the buttstock. And you never had a DI tell you to button your tunic? It was a pretty common terminology through the Vietnam War and most of the "salty" characters I knew used the term regularly. A person "CAN" get good advice over the internet. He or she can also get poor advice over the internet. Truth be told, a person can get incredibly bad advice from a shooting instructor, particularly one who isn't listening to the student's questions! I had a shooter on another forum ask about a stance because he had recently become physically challenged. He asked a good question with a detailed description of his physical state. He received a lot of advice. I added my 2 cents. He got a lot of answers that didn't actually address his problem. He wanted to use his damaged arm in some way, but he could no longer use it in the traditional way. I tried out a bunch of scenarios and gave him the one that seemed to work the best. He's a happy camper now. If you believe that you can't get good advice from the internet, then you must be guilty of giving bad advice. Also, you stated you could not imagine a scenario where one needed to shoot from a standing position. Are you still confused about that? A lot of "combat" instructors have admitted and teach that there are times when you just have to buck it up and stand on your feet and slug it out! Providing cover or retreating may be just such a scenario, or when the vegetation precludes laying down or kneeling. Heck, if you hunt you have had to encounter situations like that. I guess your 21 years in uniform trumps my 20 years and 8 months all to heck, so I bow to your wisdom. Best wishes. Dan C |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 7:13:50 AM EDT
[#39]
That target shit has no place in combat.   Sorry somone had to do it. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 7:59:41 AM EDT
[#40]
Hmm, you mean not a hole on the whole big silhouette? I've never tried it past 100-hmm Personally I'd flop down on my belly (or run away) or look for something to rest the rifle on if I was going to start plugging away at 300 yards. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:05:39 AM EDT
[#41]
I agree that anything else is better than standing. But that wasn't the original question..... 100 yards isn't very far. The reason I say what I say is because I know how difficult it is to keep all shots inside a 6 MOA circle at 200 yards, while wearing a shooting coat, and shooting one round a minute. Take away the coat, take away the bone on bone support of a target stance, start pulling the trigger faster, and your chances of hitting anything on a standard D silhouette get smaller by the second. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:06:18 AM EDT
[#42]
Maybe someone could give the guy who started this thread an answer if they disagree with the high power position someone posted earlier? Personally I'd like to know the answer also.
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:06:25 AM EDT
[#43]
I think we need to determine if we are talking about shooting paper or people before we can give or get decent advice. I dont see why you need to take jabs at SWO with references to kool-aid and such. The squared away stance is not as stable as the angeld stance. Sorry, I think SWO's advice is sound. Furthermore, the squared away stance is not rifle friendly, especially with with a rigid, match grade HBAR; fatigue will sink support arm very fast About the body armor, what your saying is true, standing angled does expose unprotected portions of your torso, but at the same time standing square will expose your whole frontal area, providing the biggest target possible. Nothing is perfect, there are always trade offs I know the tactical types are big on preaching the sub-gun style, hunkered over the gun method, but I'll stick with old style bladed stance taught in the military for the past 100 years. Besides shooting angled with a long gun, closely matches my weaver stance. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:09:18 AM EDT
[#44]
I'll try it tonight if I have time, my results may not mean much to anyone who can hit shit though
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Posted: 8/3/2005 8:49:50 AM EDT
[#45]
Work on your breathing technique.
BRASS-F Breathe Release Aim Stop Squeeze Follow thru I think that's it at least, come on Marines, help me out. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 9:10:15 AM EDT
[#46]
Harv-Not even funny. In both the Boy's Department and Men's Department of the Naval Service, it is "blouse". Catholic clergy wear tunics and maybe the Brutes/Brits. Folks, Harv can shoot. I have watched him with my own eyes (REAL EXPERIENCE).
I just came in from hitting the chest of an Awerbuck man-shaped target at 100m from a fighting stance with am M4gery and an Aimpoint. When I find a safe 200m shot on this 122 acres that isn't interfered with by trees or terrain (micro or macro), I'll give it a shot. Last week, I hit a LaRue sniper steel plate (15" high?) at 100 yards from a fighting stance. I think you are wrong here. There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of one stance for throwing/defending a punch, fighting/defending with a knife or impact weapon, employing a bayonet, presenting a pistol (yes, a Weaver stance) and shooting a carbine.
Who teaches "hunkered down over the gun"? Both Louis Awerbuck and Pat Rogers (REAL EXPERIENCE) teach having the head erect so that you can see through the optical center of the eye and not limit peripheral vision. ("Move the rifle around your head not your head around the rifle.") It's tough to maintain situational awareness "hunkered down over the gun". No matter what stance you choose, don't neglect Rule #4 at 300 yards: Be sure of your target and what's behind it. It sounds as if the original questioner is not on a range. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 10:03:30 AM EDT
[#47]
Man, get over yourself! The original poster was asking for advice on a standing position for 100-300 yards. He said nothing about being shot at, nor did he say anything about wearing body armor. Maybe you can hit steel (what size?) at 200 yards - that doesn' t mean that an aggressive combat stance is superior for a precision distance shot. If it were, highpower guys would adopt it. The highpower / smallbore standing position as pistured evolved that way for a reason - IT WORKS, and is the MOST STABLE. Y'know, kinda like what the original poster was asking. FWIW, I have nailed a silhoutte target COM at 300 yards standing - just to get a former Jarhead to shut up. I chose the "highpower" position shown on page 1 - and I took my time to get the shot off right. I would never use the same technique to respond to a threat or to shoot a 2-second exposure target - but there is a time and a place for everything. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 10:42:46 AM EDT
[#48]
What I mean when I say hunkered is stooped over slightly and ass out. That position is highly muscular as opposed to skeletal. Muscular stances in anything is fatiguing. Skeletal is more at rest and comfortable which lends to better shooting for longer durations. Next time you attend carbine class watch people that use the "tactical stance" as the day goes on, they naturally start reverting to a skeletal stance because their muscles are hosed. Never fails. Even a 6lbs carbine will weigh a brick if it's supported by your muscles, instead of resting on your bones This isnt anything to do with pat rogers, it's Biology Example Hunkered down over the gun  Not Hunkered Hunkered  Not hunkered  |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 11:54:24 AM EDT
[#49]
First, you changed the fourth pic from a shooter dressed in OD with a AR/ELCAN combo to a couple of shooters with MP5's who appear to be in a reasonable "fighting stance". Why? They are certainly more stable in all vertical planes than the shooter in your first cut at this post. Many have mentioned stability. I think I could move the Capitalist Oppressor and Mr. ELCAN with a finger to his chest or back. When did we start talking about "better shooting for longer durations"? I thought we were talking about getting hits at 100-300 yards.  Not many are going to let you stand still for ten minutes and shoot at them ten times without some response, e.g. shooting back, running away, closing your position or calling in CAS, ARTY or Naval Gunfire Support."This isnt anything to do with pat rogers, it's Biology." No, it's about mindset (the third element of the the combat triad of markmanship, manipulation and mindset which Pat Rogers espouses). Is the original poster fighting or just shooting? This ultimately impacts on the response. Shooting the Marine Corps KD course for qualification (REAL EXPERIENCE) or the National Match Course at a Regional or Camp Perry (REAL EXPERIENCE) are not fighting and never have been. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 11:58:24 AM EDT
[#50]
A hasty sling helps.
Dry fire lots. |
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