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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Greaseless M16s (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 2/15/2005 9:04:50 AM EDT

I recently assembled and test-fired the first of the new greaseless M16EMFOURA1 rifles to be fielded my our military. The first 130 of these are headed for the sandbox (edited to add "when testing is complete").
They are completely coated, with the exception of the interior of the barrel, with UCT Defense LLC's latest version of their proprietary electroless Ni-B (nickel boride) plating process. This coating is harder than hard chrome, slicker than electroless nickel, and extremely resistant to sliding wear. Corrosion resistance exceeds over 60 days of salt spray as tested by Picatinney Arsenal. As a matter of fact, Picatinney recommended that all of the coatings on an M16 be replaced by this process. They have tested EMFOUR's's to 30,000 rounds with no lubrication.

Although UCT is successfully coating the interior of some barrels, they have not yet perfected the process for all barrels yet. It will come.

As UCT Defense is local to me, I am doing some assembly and testing for them. My next project is reported to be an M249 SAW.

I hope to be able to offer the plating process and pre-plated parts and assemblies to the AR15.com community. I do not have a pricing structure or time frame to offer as yet, but would like to guage the interest level in the community.

What do you say?

Posted: 2/15/2005 9:25:05 AM EDT

[#1]

If it can be proven that it works as good as you say it does, and I don't have a shiny silver gun when its finished, I'd DEFINETLY be interested.

Posted: 2/15/2005 9:32:07 AM EDT

[#2]

that would be cool

Posted: 2/15/2005 9:35:29 AM EDT

[#3]

Absolutely interested, as long as the cost isn't prohibitive, and that beautiful black would remain so.

HH

Posted: 2/15/2005 9:37:21 AM EDT

[#4]

I have never used grease on an M16 in my entire life. Grease is NOT the word. CLP is.

That in mind, i tihnk it's an interesting idea. Price would be the biggest factor.

Posted: 2/15/2005 9:45:02 AM EDT

[#5]

I'd really like to see the pricing for that stuff. It sounds very interesting.

Posted: 2/15/2005 9:54:56 AM EDT

[#6]

I'm cautiously interested, but this just screams early 1960's "the M-16 never needs cleaning!"

Posted: 2/15/2005 9:56:13 AM EDT

[#7]

Interested depending on costs.

Posted: 2/15/2005 10:13:15 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
I have never used grease on an M16 in my entire life

You should try it. It's excellent on the cam pin and on the Bolt carrier bearing rails. CLP is useless on the Cam pin and oozes everywhere in the upper which attracts dust.

I still use CLP, but not where it doesn't work.

Posted: 2/15/2005 10:40:04 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I have never used grease on an M16 in my entire life

You should try it. It's excellent on the cam pin and on the Bolt carrier bearing rails. CLP is useless on the Cam pin and oozes everywhere in the upper which attracts dust.

I still use CLP, but not where it doesn't work.

This is exactly where I use grease as well. Mark, what kind of grease do you prefer?

Posted: 2/15/2005 10:52:02 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
This is exactly where I use grease as well. Mark, what kind of grease do you prefer?

I just use High Temp automotive brake grease. It doesn't vaporize off of the Cam pin like CLP.

Posted: 2/15/2005 11:01:49 AM EDT

[#11]

I'm not a big fan of nickel plating on critical parts. I'd give it a shot though.

Posted: 2/15/2005 11:11:10 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
It's excellent on the cam pin and on the Bolt carrier bearing rails. CLP is useless on the Cam pin and oozes everywhere in the upper which attracts dust.

And grease doesn't attract dust?

And when it does, it captures it thus making a nice abrasive paste.

Thanks but no thanks, grease was originally tried with the M16 in the mid 60s, it was found lacking. CLP works just find thank you.

Posted: 2/15/2005 11:20:12 AM EDT

[#13]

Sounds a lot like Robar's NP3.

Posted: 2/15/2005 11:37:30 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
And grease doesn't attract dust?

And when it does, it captures it thus making a nice abrasive paste.

Thanks but no thanks, grease was originally tried with the M16 in the mid 60s, it was found lacking. CLP works just find thank you.

Grease won't run all over the inside of the upper. It stays just where you put it. any lube will attract grit. but limiting it to the applied area helps out a lot. So rather that a whole upper full of gunk, you just get limited caking.

CLP does not work on the cam pin. It will lube the carrier rails, but it won't stay where you want it. Grease works just fine in those two areas thank you.

Posted: 2/15/2005 11:53:08 AM EDT

[#15]

What? Im supposed to grease this puppy?

[wanders off to search his rifle for zerk fittings]

Posted: 2/15/2005 12:18:44 PM EDT

[#16]

No lubricant "attracts dust", or at least none that I've ever heard of. Dust and dirt that comes in contact with lubricants may stick, but they don't, and can't, "attract" it. Sorry for nitpicking, but that's one of my pet peeves and I've run across people who take it literally, thinking that dust from all over the place will suddenly suck into their gun like into a vacuum if they put oil or grease on it.

The coating sounds interesting and if it's not cost prohibitive I may consdier it on my next build, which I just assembled the lower for a few nights ago.

Posted: 2/15/2005 12:23:41 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
CLP does not work on the cam pin. It will lube the carrier rails, but it won't stay where you want it.

Sure it does - ALL if it might not but some does, add in that even if it dries it leaves a lubricating film behind.

Grease was given up after a couple of years with the M16. CLP is still going strong 20+ years after it's introduction - that tells me alot.

Posted: 2/15/2005 12:40:01 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I have never used grease on an M16 in my entire life

You should try it. It's excellent on the cam pin and on the Bolt carrier bearing rails. CLP is useless on the Cam pin and oozes everywhere in the upper which attracts dust.

I still use CLP, but not where it doesn't work.

It doesnt work huh? And you base this on..... what?

Posted: 2/15/2005 12:42:49 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
They have tested M4's to 30,000 rounds with no lubrication.

This sounds really cool. I'd be interested in seeing how much cost this adds to the basic rifle.

This and a LW gas piston upper.... might keep this weapon system alive for many decades to come!

Posted: 2/15/2005 1:02:33 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Sounds a lot like Robar's NP3.

Yeah, Lazzeroni is coating bullets with it to squeeze more velocity out of a Barnes Bullet. Check it out here: LazerHead Premium Hunting Bullets from Lazzeroni

I wonder if you could coat an entire firearm with it? Incidentally, I had a Bushmaster completely coated with Teflon except for the bore. I don't use any lube either. Cleaning is a snap with a dry brush.

Posted: 2/15/2005 1:07:54 PM EDT

[#21]

sounds like a good idea. As with others cost would be a big factor to have this on a personal firearm.

Posted: 2/15/2005 1:11:25 PM EDT

[#22]

Kewl. I saw this at a tradeshow a few years ago, I was wondering where it was at

Posted: 2/15/2005 1:14:55 PM EDT

[#23]

I'm interested.

Posted: 2/15/2005 1:17:06 PM EDT

[#24]

Grease in an AR15?, What happens if it gets cold outside?

& Yes if it does not cost & Arm & a Leg I am interested in the new coating!

Posted: 2/15/2005 1:22:25 PM EDT

[#25]

ROBAR NP-3 finish:

Very cool... but very silver!

Posted: 2/15/2005 2:26:45 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I have never used grease on an M16 in my entire life

You should try it. It's excellent on the cam pin and on the Bolt carrier bearing rails. CLP is useless on the Cam pin and oozes everywhere in the upper which attracts dust.

I still use CLP, but not where it doesn't work.

YEP I use Militec synthetic grease. Very slick, and will handle high temps. Most of all grease has the most wear protection. I use Powder Blast or carb cleaner to kick ass on the gunk. then CLP to final clean. Then grease carrier contact points. 100% reliable

Posted: 2/15/2005 3:04:17 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
I hope to be able to offer the plating process and pre-plated parts and assemblies to the AR15.com community. I do not have a pricing structure or time frame to offer as yet, but would like to guage the interest level in the community.

What do you say?

Interested

Posted: 2/15/2005 3:52:14 PM EDT

[#28]

UCT DEFENSE, LLC
Topic#:

SOCOM 03-009 Selected for Award
Title: Renewal/Service Life Extension of Weapon (Machine Gun) Components
Abstract: The purpose of this project is to save the lives of our fighting men and women. SOCOM will reach this objective by identifying a feasible process, which will demonstrate that extending the life of small arm weapons components and barrels is possible. Developing such product is vital because it will provide the war fighters with a reliable weapon on which they could depend in the most austere environments. Nothing is more important to our fighting men and women than reliable weapons. This project is also important because it will reduce the acquisition and life cycle costs of the weapon. Both of these goals are feasible by the use of UCTD's UltraCem coating on small arm components and barrels. UltraCem is a multi-functional coating that will (1) add hardness, (2) increase wear and abrasion resistance, (3) reduce friction, (4) enhance lubriciousness and (5) increase temperature tolerance to the base material. All of these functions combined will protect the components/barrels from the erosive forces and will extend the life of small arms.

Copied from
---------- SOCOM ----------

19 Phase I Selections from the 03.2 Solicitation

I'm sorry that board space is being used up on the ongoing grease vs oil debate. Greaseless guns is not the terminology I would have personally chosen, had it been up to me. The elimination of wet lubrication, as specified in recent solicitations such as the SCAR program, is the goal. UCT's UltraCem is SOCOM's choice of methods to achieve that goal.

I will post more info as I find the time, and will attempt to get a representative of UCT online to help answer questions.

UltraCem is not similar to NP3. The application process may be similar, and they both use nickel, but the result is not the same. As I stated above, this stuff is harder than hard chrome, and lasts.

The natural color is gray. Black can be done, as well as other colors. The EMFOUR I assembled was dark chocolate brown per the customer's (SOCOM) request. I should have taken a pic, but was having too much fun "testing".

Posted: 2/15/2005 4:08:13 PM EDT

[#29]

Posted: 2/15/2005 4:24:12 PM EDT

[#30]

Sounds cool. but I would prefer mine in basic black, not the "fudge" color you tested.

Posted: 2/15/2005 4:39:28 PM EDT

[#31]

I wish you luck in this venture. My unit sent several barrels, triggers, and other components to try this Ultra Chem process. It failed miserably, ruining most of the (very expensive) parts.

In September 2004 at the Infantry Conference at Fort Benning we invited Ultra Chem to conduct a live-fire demo at Parks Range. They brought an M16A1 to demonstrate the "Greaseless" concept. It failed to fire more than three consecutive rounds before stopping. There was one slam-fire. We mutually agreed to end the demo.

Other manufacturers present were Remington Military Products (Messers. Ed Shoppman and Mike Haugen) and Surefire (Mr. Barry Dueck).

Posted: 2/15/2005 7:18:37 PM EDT

[#32]

Sinister,
I don't know what happened at your demo shoot, but the M16EMFOURA1 I assembled ran perfectly from the first trigger pull. Picatinney Arsenal was sufficiently impressed with the results of their extensive testing to recommend that all the other coating processes used on an M16 be replaced with UltraCem. I quote a report from Gus Funcasta, Chief, Small & Medium Caliber Weapons Systems at Picatinney; "Recommended technical approach: Use UltraCem to replace all coatings".
SOCOM is buying it. Beretta is buying it. Many others are testing and negotiating.

That said, I will ask UCT about that shoot, and if you will provide me with some details, such as your name and unit, I will enquire about the parts that "failed miserably".

Posted: 2/15/2005 7:46:27 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
I wish you luck in this venture. My unit sent several barrels, triggers, and other components to try this Ultra Chem process. It failed miserably, ruining most of the (very expensive) parts.

In September 2004 at the Infantry Conference at Fort Benning we invited Ultra Chem to conduct a live-fire demo at Parks Range. They brought an M16A1 to demonstrate the "Greaseless" concept. It failed to fire more than three consecutive rounds before stopping. There was one slam-fire. We mutually agreed to end the demo.

Other manufacturers present were Remington Military Products (Messers. Ed Shoppman and Mike Haugen) and Surefire (Mr. Barry Dueck).

Sinister, if possible could you be a little more specific? How did the parts fail?

Thanks.

Posted: 2/15/2005 8:03:44 PM EDT

[#34]

BTW Bandit, couldn't you have posted this info a few days ago? I just sent a lower receiver off to be refinished in Cerakote, thinking it was the latest & greatest firearms finish, and now you have to go & pull this on me!!!

Posted: 2/15/2005 8:07:48 PM EDT

[#35]

Bing

Posted: 2/15/2005 8:09:52 PM EDT

[#36]

I wonder if they fixed the problems encountered at Ft Benning.

If so, sounds interesting.

Posted: 2/15/2005 8:09:56 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
Bing

Say what, Lump?

Posted: 2/15/2005 8:11:42 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I wonder if they fixed the problems encountered at Ft Benning.

If so, sounds interesting.

I'm very interested in finding out more about what happened at Benning.

Of course, that could be why they started farming out their gunsmithing to me

Posted: 2/15/2005 8:12:19 PM EDT

[#39]

John this sounds awesome. When will they be ready to deliver to us Civies?

Posted: 2/15/2005 8:12:41 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Bing

Say what, Lump?

Tagging for updates

Posted: 2/15/2005 8:18:07 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
John this sounds awesome. When will they be ready to deliver to us Civies?

Boom, as I posted above, I don't have price or time frames yet.

The UltraCem process is being used in a number of other fields than just weapons. It's hardness, wear resistance, lubricity, and other characteristics are of great benefit in the automotive, marine, aeronautical/aerospace, oil drilling, and many other fields.
However, each application is approached differently, and weapons are being coated with Version 7 of the development process.
For example, the developer, Ed McComas, told me that each new weapon system that comes in the door requires a great deal of research, experimentation, and testing to fine-tune the characteristics of the coating to be of maximum benefit for each application.
For example, the first M16s they coated ran at more than 1100 rounds per minute, and they had to learn to adjust the lubricity to slow them down.
When they coated the first M249, the cyclic rate was unchanged. A great deal of effort went into trying to discover why the cyclic rate did NOT increase with the coating, before they discovered the cyclic regulator (or whatever it's called) will not allow the 249 to run any faster.

Posted: 2/16/2005 8:12:58 AM EDT

[#42]

I just spoke with Travis at UCT. There is some truth to Sinister's post. UCT showed up at Benning with an old beatup, but freshly coated and untested M16A1 manufactured by Olympic Arms. It is coming to my shop to find out why it doesn't work.

Also, I misspoke in my first post. The first M16M4A1s have passed the manufacturer's inspection and testing, and are on their way to Aberdeen for further proving, not going directly to the sandbox.

While composing this post, an email came in from Sinister. He is legit.

Edited to add; the M16A1 referred to above is in my shop, and is actually a Frankford Arsenal version that was assembled after coating by a "gunsmith" who knew nothing about ARs, let alone M16s. I'll post what I find later.

Posted: 2/16/2005 8:21:45 AM EDT

[#43]

Tag.

Posted: 2/16/2005 9:18:21 AM EDT

[#44]

Tagged for updates.

Posted: 2/16/2005 10:22:42 AM EDT

[#45]

Link to Presentation on UCT treated Berettas from NDIA Small Arms Systems Symposium

www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session9/daniti.ppt

Posted: 2/16/2005 10:39:44 AM EDT

[#46]

I'm interested in the new coatings. I already have an Olympic Arms Maxhard rifle I'm building, and since I started it, I have heard of Tantelum, NP-3 and now UTC. I think chrome is on the way out, because it's so "last century"....

Posted: 2/16/2005 11:36:22 AM EDT

[#47]

Tagged

Posted: 2/16/2005 1:15:46 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:
Link to Presentation on UCT treated Berettas from NDIA Small Arms Systems Symposium

www.dtic.mil/ndia/2004arms/session9/daniti.ppt

Interesting, let's skip to the end:

Conclusions
* Total cost ~ $12K = large amount of good information
* No noticeable mechanical wear
* No apparent gun degradation after 15,000 rnds
* Easy to remove some residue
* Hard to Clean Carbon
* A thin layer of CLP on the gun could aid in carbon removal

**Not a Chrome Replacement in Barrels**

Posted: 2/16/2005 1:27:45 PM EDT

[#49]

Latest update:

I inspected the M16A1 mentioned above, this afternoon. The gas port was restricted, probably due to the plating process, and the extractor spring was missing it's buffer. Opening the gas port to the proper size, and installing a new Colt extractor spring with the black buffer, cured it's ills. It runs now!

I was also given back the EMFOUR I previously assembled, and will be testing it further with 5000 rounds of the dirtiest ammo available, Wolf lacquer coated steel case. This should be interesting. UCT has already shot 1100 plus rounds of Wolf through it.

Posted: 2/16/2005 3:26:53 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Latest update:

I inspected the M16A1 mentioned above, this afternoon. The gas port was restricted, probably due to the plating process, and the extractor spring was missing it's buffer. Opening the gas port to the proper size, and installing a new Colt extractor spring with the black buffer, cured it's ills. It runs now!

I was also given back the M4 I previously assembled, and will be testing it further with 5000 rounds of the dirtiest ammo available, Wolf lacquer coated steel case. This should be interesting. UCT has already shot 1100 plus rounds of Wolf through it.

John, now that you have it back....how about some pics

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Greaseless M16s (Page 1 of 3)

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