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Posted: 10/31/2004 3:18:39 AM EDT
[#1]
Sounds like the troopers chose the right policy. Life in danger, shoot rifle to stop threat.
You should post this in the VA Hometown Forum. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 3:20:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Agreed. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 3:38:01 AM EDT
[#3]
Bad Guy gets shot with an M4.
And the problem is...? "Astonishing" lack of policy? Beyond the usual use-of-force policy? Sounds like VaSP knew just what to do, and did it. And did some nice shooting. Good for them----one less murderous asshole walking the Earth. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 3:44:35 AM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 10/31/2004 3:56:47 AM EDT
[#5]
Good job VaSP!
Another bad guy that won't be able to come into my neighborhood and do the same thing. Steve. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 4:30:28 AM EDT
[#6]
This is the part of the article which needs some thought:
"The shower of .223-caliber bullets from five rifles pierced a nearby Colonial Heights house, in which a family cowered as an estimated 20 to 30 rounds ripped through walls, ceilings and even a bathtub. Some fragments landed in the back yard." |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 4:33:17 AM EDT
[#7]
Some people just need something to bitch about. The friggin bullets from their pistols would have "torn" through the houses even better. Stupid Fucknuts!
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Posted: 10/31/2004 4:41:31 AM EDT
[#8]
The "family cowering " wouldnt be able to bitch if the perp would've been in their home . Better if the fragments of bulletts and house were in the back yard rather than bulletts and their brains ! The State Police made the right choice , stop the criminal before more innocents were harmed . |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 4:42:59 AM EDT
[#9]
If I were cowering in the floor in my house while bullets flew through I would not be pleased.
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Posted: 10/31/2004 4:48:28 AM EDT
[#10]
CS, you miss the points,
A. If they were using handguns there would have been worse penetration B. If they were using handguns there would have been poorer aiming and most likely MORE bullets in the house. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:02:27 AM EDT
[#11]
Sounds like the State Troopers deserve praise, they took a dangerous suspect off the streets. The M4 was just another tool in there toolbox.
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:03:44 AM EDT
[#12]
What type of ammo where they using? I have a hard time believeing the ripped through the house and a bathtub stuff. Just kinda hard to believe.... |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:10:01 AM EDT
[#13]
Looks like they did the right thing to me. Stop the goblin before he hurts others.....
LB |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:15:18 AM EDT
[#14]
I smell  Good shoot. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:16:13 AM EDT
[#15]
Another load of fed to the sheeple.
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:21:29 AM EDT
[#16]
BZ to the VSP Superintendent. Nothing worse than micromanaging a decision that MUST be left to the officer in the field (matching the firearm to the threat). Cops are already responsible and accountable for every bullet they fire, so who cares what kind of gun it came from? I don't.
What kind of additional training is required to use ANY fucking rifle? This is all they need to know: a) Be aware of your backstop b) Sight picture c) Sight alignment d) Trigger control |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:23:06 AM EDT
[#17]
Excellent job VSP!
 Saved all Virginians a boat load of tax dollars housing this turd.
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:30:16 AM EDT
[#18]
This is the part of the article that sounds like the local "Anti-Gun / Anti-Assault Weapon" typical propaganda.
Looks like bullshit, smells like bullshit, tastes like bull shit....?? Dont step in it....!!! |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:32:46 AM EDT
[#19]
 If there's a house behind the guy you're going to shoot at maybe you should just let him out of the cul de sac My gun doesn't shoot "showers" is there a showerhead attachment I am missing? 
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:38:39 AM EDT
[#20]
Kind of doubtful, A trooper I know recently was issued a front-wheel drive car and he had to go back to a special driving school geared for front wheel drive. He joked that if the VSP changes types of pens that they have an in-service class! |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:49:55 AM EDT
[#21]
Cowering....??? read further down in the article....!!!
Thompson was sitting in a truck in a cul-de-sac in front of a house that he had tried to enter earlier. The house sits slightly elevated at the end of the cul-de-sac. Police had warned the family inside to take cover and stay low. Sounds like the troopers did exactly what they should do... they gave sufficient warning to any innocent bystanders to prepare for possible action that might include the use of deadly force.... so the article now appears to include the "cowering in their home" quote just for shock value and propaganda.... keep an eye on your paper Alshear... I would bet the farm that in the next few days or a couple weeks that the Anti-Gun / Anti-Assault weapon liberals will jump all over this and ride it for anything and everything they can.... I wouldnt be surprised to even hear Kerry and Edwards mention it in the next day or 2.... The editor of the paper is most likely an Anti-Gun / Anti-Assault weapon flag waver.... This article gets a 2 flag salute...... |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:56:47 AM EDT
[#22]
So there is another down side to living on a cul-de-sac in addition to cars turning around to fast in the circle.
I have learned from this. When building a house in a cul-de-sac, get the triple brick front elevation. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:01:46 AM EDT
[#23]
Im not judging wether it was a good shoot or not, I really am not qualified to say. And 223, 9mm, or 22LR I would be bummed if my house was used as a backstop.
If the situation left no other alternative then I guess I'd have to live with it. I am not anti-LEO in anyway but I can certainly say that if 20-30 rounds went through my living room I would be an unhappy camper. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:25:26 AM EDT
[#24]
I'd like to SEE the house in question, with the damage. If the report is anywhere near accurate, I see a few problems.
1) Sounds like a "Free Fire Zone" instead of ACCURATE AIMED FIRE was used. Bad idea in a residential area. 2) IF the reports of penetration ARE accurate, kinda makes me rethink claims of no overpenetration with 223/556 rounds. 3) That many rounds MISSING the intended target. Being aware of what is beyond your intended target is ALWAYS a major concern. Not totally condemning, just need more facts, as this doesn't sound, at first blush, that the incident was properly handled. However, I wasn't there and I am fully aware that these initial reports are USUALLY inaccurate. P.S. The "6 football fields" corresponds to 600 yards. NOT beyond belief as an effective range, and certainly the bullets are capable of being lethal at far further. Muzzle velocity is close on the M-4, depending on ammo used.  Lonny |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:32:12 AM EDT
[#25]
They have a written use of force policy that says when they should and shouldn't shoot. There is a good chance that the policy has limitations (not prohibitions) on shooting at moving vehicles. I'm sure that they also have qualification requirements for those rifles as well as their sidearms. The only intelligent reason for using a handgun instead of a rifle is that you don't have access to the rifle right then. In 20 years of training, I've always been taught go with the long gun if you know/think you're going into a gunfight situation.
The public accepts us walking around wearing a handgun (well, most of em do anyway), but they'll get all twisted out of shape if we start walk around carrying rifles slung over our shoulders. The handgun is merely an expedient means of protecting ourselves and the public. The whole argument is simply, "was deadly force warranted?" If it was (and based on the article it sounds like it was), their is no question of how much deadly force is warranted. Dead is dead, force is force. Sooner or later some idiot out there is going to throw out the phrase "overkill". This is the same logic that kept NYPD and other agencies saddled with 158 grain round nose lead bullets that required massive amounts of multiple hits to accomplish the job, instead of one or two hollow points. Bunch of damn idiots trying to boost their gun grabbing position. PS. last numbers I heard, LE tends to miss with about 85% of thier rounds with handguns. Only advantage(?) to using handguns in this situation would have been fewer rounds in the guns to start with (assuming 30 round mags, if 20 round mags, not that great a difference over say a 9mm glock). Good chance the guy would still be rolling if they'd used handguns. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:52:54 AM EDT
[#26]
The 'bathtub' in the article is no doubt of the fiberglass varitey that most new homes have, so I wouldn't put much in that. As for the penatration issue, I don't think anyone is saying drywall will stop .223 cold. I don't know of any round that wont punch numerous layers of drywall with air spaces. The advantage to .223 is that after a wall or two you have a low velocity, small caliber round or even smaller fragments of rounds that will not penetrate deeply or be *as* lethal. On the other hand a 9mm / .40 / .45 will just be a little deformed and trucking right along with all it's mass on the other side of your house, unless your lucky and a few 2x4's get in it's way. Nobody, myself included would want .223 fragments bouncing around thier house or be happy about it. However, I'd rather that then 140+ grain hollow points truking through my house and walls like they weren't there. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:53:37 AM EDT
[#27]
first off............. any means to stop the criminal is justified
as to the damage to the home, tub located against the outside wall made of fiberglass, easily penetrated and with open floor plans as most new houses are it's not too much of a strech to think a fragment or debris could end up in a back yard. As a builder I often think about these things as I build homes.....................I guess I'm a little twisted 
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Posted: 10/31/2004 7:11:11 AM EDT
[#28]
If you where closer to me I would want you to build my house |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 7:15:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Will work for Ammo 
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Posted: 10/31/2004 7:33:56 AM EDT
[#30]
It always warms my heart to hear about a criminal taking the eternal dirtnap.
I'm glad to hear that no friendlies were harmed while this public service was being performed. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 8:14:41 AM EDT
[#31]
I am thankful that the VaSP do not have an "official policy" in regard to the use of these rifles by their troopers. It indicates that the Va SP hires men that are of sifficient intelligence to understand WHEN to employ such weapons. If the article is remotely correct, it does seem that VaSP needs to train their troopers on HOW to employ them. BG dead, good. Shooting into the house of innocents, bad.
VaSP, tighten it up fellas! |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 9:13:30 AM EDT
[#32]
"It's time the long arm of the law put a few more in the ground"
Wouldn't be surprised if the "20" rounds through the house turned out to be 1 or 2. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 10:12:10 AM EDT
[#33]
Please verify your source of this information, I don't believe you. I teach use of force, and I am unaware of any policy in the nation that tells you the situations where you are allowed or not allowed to shoot. The policy is a guideline for actions, not events. If I misunderstood your post, not a problem, it could simply be the way you wrote it. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 11:13:50 AM EDT
[#34]
exactly...media or homeowners in need of lawsuit money never inflate figures. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 11:34:03 AM EDT
[#35]
Keep in mind that this is from a newspaper article. We all know what the media can do to the facts. Most State Police have SOP's that tell them when to wear their hats for god sakes. I can't imagine that those troopers weren't trained and acting within written policy. Sounds like they didn't have time or resources to evacuate the house, but were able to warn them to take cover. All in all Good Show Troopers.
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Posted: 10/31/2004 1:06:21 PM EDT
[#36]
In the article sir. As a former LEO usually there is ongoing use of force and other training but in this case the troopers were given the M4s and evidently nothing else in the area of situational deployment, etc. . Don't get me wrong, the outcome suits me. Its the details that concern me. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 2:41:27 PM EDT
[#37]
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~bhrncir/Dirty%20Harry.JPG
"There's nothing wrong with shooting as long as the right people get shot." - Harry Callahan |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 3:16:16 PM EDT
[#38]
What the hell, get some spackle and that will buff right out. Seriously, the author of the piece was probably using some "poetic liscense". I don't doubt that the families in the neighborhood hit the deck and peed their pants when the troopers lit that guy up, I probably would have soiled myself as well. But I doubt that anything penetrated the outside walls of any house unless it hit a window.. -sc |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 3:17:53 PM EDT
[#39]
Can you imagine the damage if you had a bathtub launcher?
-sc
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Posted: 10/31/2004 3:30:26 PM EDT
[#40]
Here's an additional article, giving some more details to the damage done. Also in this as well as the first, it states the house was on a small hill at the end of the cul de sac. Some of the bullets hit the roof and the second floor.
On a house on a hill. VA Times-Dispatch Follow-up
Lonny |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:40:11 PM EDT
[#41]
Rule#3 Know your target and WHAT IS BEYOND IT. Rule#4 Keep your finger off of the trigger until your sights ARE ON TARGET Tighten up fellas. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:47:49 PM EDT
[#42]
It does if it's a bullet hose. 
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Posted: 10/31/2004 5:57:50 PM EDT
[#43]
No way can a pistol rd. pentrate what the 5.56 does at that distance and normal house building materials.
Jack |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:00:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Sounds like another misinformed liberal reporter whining about all those hi- powered
"assault weapons" that are causing death and destruction in the city streets. Even the criminals are outgunned............... |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:31:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Every VA Trooper received in service training when they were issued their rifles. A trooper I knowis one of the instructors for this project.
I'm guessing they don't have a policy written specificaly for when and where to deploy the rifles, they were probably told that the use of force guidelines apply no matter what weapon they are using. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:46:58 PM EDT
[#46]
This doesnt appear like liberal reporting at all to me.
If the cops had told me they were about to use deadly force in my area, my old trusty would get a mag slapped in it. The reason being, is so when the cops rain 50 rnds on the guy to get him, I can get him with one and then yell, "Somebody was CLOSER". Why is it Cops are natoriously bad aimers? *edit* Let me answer my own question, donuts and bad physical requirements maybe.......? Most of the gun owners I know are hunters. You know how many times I have ever seen anyone shoot at an animal........... once. Thats all it took. The military training I had, stressed this. Sure there is more stress in the real situation, but 1 shot. If the rounds were hitting the second floor, on a raised house, on a hill.......... bad shooting, period. No excuse. My tax dollars dont pay for that, they pay for experience, expert shooting. I can do it, and I dont do it full time, or even part time. |
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Posted: 10/31/2004 6:53:57 PM EDT
[#47]
Good guys 1 Bad guys 0
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Posted: 11/1/2004 3:15:16 AM EDT
[#48]
No sir, the Richmond Times Dispatch is a conservative, Republican and pro-second ammendment newspaper. |
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Posted: 11/1/2004 3:35:15 AM EDT
[#49]
I'm sure you've shot houses with pistol calibers and 5.56mm before to compare? |
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Posted: 11/1/2004 5:16:05 AM EDT
[#50]
is it too much to ask that they qual with the weapons they shoot?
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