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Posted: 9/28/2004 3:41:59 AM EDT
One was in Vietnam, the other one is about 25 years old. Is this true? I've heard this for the past 20 years from other people as well. Do they teach the Marines this? I have a hard time believing this but what do I know? I've read about you guys shooting out to 600 yards.
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Mike PS - thank 'em for their service to our country, but tell 'em for me they don't know shit about the M16 or the ammunition it shoots. |
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like cops a lot of Marines arent "gun people" i heard more than one DI spout this crap but when we got to the range the PMI gave everyone the straight scoop.
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You should have asked them "If the rounds are tumbling after 200yds, how do they make perfect holes at 500yds?" The annual rifle qualification goes out to 500yds. |
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It's just an old MYTH being relived. A story that never dies. I guess it probaly comes from hearing someone say the 5.56x45 tumbles & Fragments ...Because of the nasty wound it leaves.Then some people take that as it is tumbling in flight. When it isn't.Just it does do a flip and fragment AFTER it has hit it's TARGET............ IMO ...WarDawg
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www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html
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I'm in total agreement with DvlDog... I had Marines look at me funny because I was always talking about firearms....
ALOT of Marines are not gun enthusiasts! Those types suck up everything they HEAR because they have no true experience to fall back on. |
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This is an old myth dating back to the Viet Nam War era. Been hearing it for well over thirty years.
No one knows for sure the original source of this nonsense, but I have heard it repeated, more than a few times, by veterans of that era. Might have had something to do with misinformation at first, then repeated to convince troops the new "22 caliber" round was deadlier than the old "30 caliber." Anyhow just like another old Viet Nam era myth about the ability of the enemy to use our ammo in their weapons. Lonny |
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You mean my rifle is not supposed to leave keyholes at 200M?!?!?!?
I have heard this same rumor many times in the Army. I recently heard from an E-7 that was swearing thast it was true. |
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Yeah, a lot of soldiers don't know anything about guns. One of my uncles served in WW2, and he once said the Germans had an "88" in a church steeple. For those who don't know, the 8.8cm PAK is huge, and you couldn't get one in a church steeple. If the germans had as many "88"s or "Tiger" tanks as GIs thought they had, those in France would be speaking german.
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i know when i'm pulling pits for my marines at 500 meters, if i see a keyhole impact, that means it hit the ground last time i was told, i must be cheating marines out of well earned points, cause i won't count it! LOL!!!
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i've been told by a Drill S. that the bullet's trajectory is like a sinosoidal graph
i've also been told that the bullet does more damage the further it goes out... theres lots of myths out there |
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All questions will be answered by the Ammo Oracle.
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[Gunshow SEAL] Back in Nam I shot a VC in the right butt cheek and the boolit tumbled up though his torso creating massive wounds before it exited out of his head! Now that the gubbamint has changed all the rifle twists to 1/7 all the boolit does is drill right through people leaving .22 ice pick wounds, dey should have left the 1/12 twist alone...[/Gunshow SEAL]
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Could it be that the older M16 with the higher twist (maybe 1 in 12) were shooting SS109 bullets (lately) and the result was a highly inaccurate shot causing one to actually believe in the tumbling effect?
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Probably was a smaller gun like a 37mm. Generally, anything that was pouring effective cannon fire on our GIs was assumed to be an 88. |
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These are the same guys that make youthful officers insist they need more red dot sights, because Marines shooting with irons will become dead Marines.
Blah, blah, blah. It's the decline of the shooting society. America doesn't want it's kids around guns, then throws a hissy when they can't shoot back at the bad guys efficiently. |
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I once tumbled on a curb outside the EN club at Camp Atterbury IN.(or was it a ditch?)
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I think the original post was about the 5.56 being designed to tumble after 200 yds..... not tumbling once it hits someone.
There are many instances of 5.56 bullets tumbling once they enter the body. But designed to just start tumbling once it travels 200 yds..... I dont think so. |
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As a general rule, soldiers and cops don't know shit about guns.
There are notable exceptions, but they are in the minority. |
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I ran into a clerk who was saying the same thing recently. "M16's haven't been effective since they changed all the twist rates from 1/12. That's why those guys used to talk about hitting someone in the knee and the bullet coming out of their ear. Now they (1/9, 1/7) overstabilize the bullet and all it makes is an ice pick hole." Had he sounded sarcastic I might have continued to listen. |
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I have a friend who used to be a Lightfighter and is now in an Armored Division stationed in CA. A few years ago he told me that the bullet from an M16 tumbles when it leaves the muzzle. I tried to argue with him, but he would not hear of it. He still insists on it to this day.
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I heard the same thing from my DS while in basic in the mid 80's. I knew he was full of shit but I wasn't about to argue and end up with 10 weeks of K.P. It would be like trying to get a boomarang to fly a straight line after 25 yards.
I think the point my D.S. was trying to make, although ignorant to ballistics, was that the 5.56 cartridge made effective wounds. |
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Old myth, along with the M16 being 'self cleaning' and being unreliable in less than pristine conditions... 5.56mm rounds, especially at higher (77gr and up) weights, are quite accurate out beyond 600yds.... NRA 600yd competition basically requires you to hit a 12" circle from 600yds for a perfect score, and the AR dominates NRA service-rifle competition. What DOES happen, is that when a US mil-spec 5.56mm bullet strikes flesh or similar, it's length causes it to attempt to turn tail-first, and the forces exerted while the bullet is doing this cause it to fragment... They do not 'tumble'... |
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+1. |
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Actually it's not the length of the bullet that causes this. It has to do with the bullet's center of pressure being ahead of it's center of mass. It's the shape of the bullet that causes the round to yaw after it impacts flesh ... where it tries to reorient itself into a more stable position (tail first). |
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This on gun show Nam vet said "When I was a medic in the Marines one of the guys got shot with an AK in his thumb and came out his foot". I asked him if he was tieing his boot lace up when he was shot. Then I got to hear the story about bullets tumbleing.
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Interesting since USMC 'medics' are called Corpsman and they're members of the US Navy. |
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Local gunstore in town, one of the better ones actually, anyway while chatting up the clerk behind the counter talking AR15's we start discussing ammo. He said he was former Spec Forces and he was "intimately" familar with the 5.56 round. Along the way we got to talking about terminal performance and he insisted that no fragmentation ever occurred, that all the wounding was a function of tumbling. Also claimed that any round that fragmented in flesh was banned by the Geneva convention. He wasn't interested in hearing any debate on the matter so I thanked him and politely left.
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I didnt read hardly any of the read other than the first post, but yea thats bs. In the marines marksmanship qualification they shoot 500 yrds, only branch that does that i believe. People shoot .223's 1000yrds.
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Nope, the U.S. Army quals at 500 as well. |
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I think I recall hearing or reading the "flying Buzzsaw" story a looooooooong time ago!
As I recall it was a storry started by the Anti-War crowd back during the Vietnam war citing "inhumane" weapons being used. |
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My two cents. I was a PMI in the Marines for 2 years. What we learned is around 650+ meters the round starts to wabble. We set up targets at 800 and saw full length bullet impacts in the target. The book on the effective range is 550 on a point target and 800 on an area target. In my own experience, I myself have put 20 consecutive shots in to a 12" target from 500. Not difficult with no wind. |
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You are completely correct, but the standard issue round in the military for 5.56 is 55 gr. |
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+1 I love when guys at the bar tell me they were medics in the corps. It takes a lot for me not to bitch slap them. Semper Fi |
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Errrrr. What?????? The last time I checked it was 300. |
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Last time I checked it was random targets from 50 to 300 meters. 40 shots total. And I might add a pretty easy clean. |
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Fixed it for ya! |
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Thanks gotm4. We always received 55 gr. But we were close to the mexican border so it must have been a logistics thing. |
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Think about it, if a bullet started tumbling after 200 yards, what would be it maximum range, 225 yards? A bullet ain't going to go very far if it starts tumbling in the air. Throw an arrow normal then throw one end over end and see which one goes farther.
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I knew the story was BS from th begining. My dad was a Corpsman when he was in. My dad Corrected me at a very young age.
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+1 |
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As you were..... The OFFICIAL Army qual standard record fire course consists of 40 target exposures at ranges between 50 and 300 meters in timed target sequences and combinations, i.e. BCT and regular marksmanship proficiency qualification. The standard course requires 23 hits to qualify as Marksman, 30 for Sharpshooter, and 36 for Expert. Targets out to 500 meters are only used in specific unit training, etc. I melded my unit flashbacks with my BCT ones. I KNEW I remembered engaging 500 meter targets SOMEWHERE h.gif |
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