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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:06:05 PM EDT
[#1]
The Xtra Cheezy Rifle...I Like it.
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:07:16 PM EDT
[#2]
That's what I thought when I first saw it. I think the M-16 has a REAL good rival, equal on all levels.
But then again, its basic design IS an AR... I guess the only thing that can beat an AR is another AR. Also, keep in mind that POF, KKF, ZM, and probably a fwe other outputs already have piston ARs. Colt could easily bring theirs back. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:07:27 PM EDT
[#3]
Mildly interesting. I hate the stock.
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:13:44 PM EDT
[#4]
I think its interesting. Probably wouldn't mind owning one for the hell of it...seems like it might make a handly little carbine.
But based on the manufacturer, it will probably be atleast a 1500+ setup. Throw it in the mix at 800 dollars to compete with the AR15 price wise, and I think people may take kindly to it. It would never replace one of my AR's, but it would certainly compliment them well. Scott |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:15:48 PM EDT
[#5]
What fascinates me about this, is that it is a monolithic upper. This means you don't have to worry about installing the "ras" or keeping the "ras" alligned, or the "ras" coming loose. This means fewer parts, and fewer things to go wrong.
Also, there is no buffer tube/buffer, and the bolt and bolt carrier can be DESIGNED to work with the gas piston, rather than a current Ar-15 Bolt/Bolt Carrier being RETROFITTED to work with a gas piston. Good thinking there. I have always believed it is better to start with a FRESH piece of paper, rather that RE-build a current design. Now, if you want to include some of the ARs excellent ergonomics, such as the safety, mag release, etc etc, then thats fine. But I hate the thinking of "how can we maintain MAXIMUM parts similarity with the AR platform.... while at the same time making a WHOLE new weapon."  S |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:24:16 PM EDT
[#6]
NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
What that seems to be is an AK gas system & bolt grafted onto an AR lower. Take away the AR gas system, you take away the signature feature of the gun, and the part that makes it so accurate. The whole point of the AR design is to HAVE the bolt, buffer tube & buffer all in-line with eachother. This avoids the extra muzzle flip caused by a gas piston, and makes the AR the most accurate base design for a semi-auto rifle... Another 'solution in search of a problem'... Has anyone ever sean an AR bolt break? I've never heard of it happening... Then why 'simplify' the bolt at the cost of accuracy... And as for reliability, it doesn't matter how reliable a gun is if you have no ammo left to shoot... The AR is reliable enough to reach that point, so reliability is a moot point. If you can shoot 1 day's load without cleaning, you're clear... Putting a gas piston on a modern rifle is a giant leap BACKWARDS, to around 1947 or so... |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:25:31 PM EDT
[#7]
I disagree with this. No AR I am aware of comes from the factory with a RAS for $800. You need to include the price of the RAS, $300-400, and instillation. And if you will notice, that top rail is UN-interrupted, A' LA the LMT MRP. The extra $700 buys me a gas piston, a monolithic upper receiver, an un-interrupted top rail, and rails all around.... that sounds like a GOOD deal to me. Now, this thing MIGHT be a bigger lemon than a yugo. It is untested and I am aware of that. But this is DEFINITELY something I want to keep my eyes on. Have a good one, Stainless |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:27:42 PM EDT
[#8]
HAHAHAHAHA funny as hell. They named a rifle after you..... you MUST own it.  Stainless |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:28:40 PM EDT
[#9]
I like it.
I think I might look into this and see what they cost. like others have said given who it's from it will probably be $1500 + |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:32:10 PM EDT
[#10]
I have one thing to say to that...... SWEET  S |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:32:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Looks like a piece of crap.
Monolithic rail. I'd rather have a MRP upper (only) for about the same price. Gas piston and 3 lug bolt. That's 50's tech. It won't work today. That crappy SIG 550 uses a similar setup. I know it's very inaccurate because I have never shot one. Trust me. Drop free (AR) mags and AMBI controls. Totally unneccessary. Folding stock that could be easily upgraded to a folding/collapsable stock. No thanks Not as modular as the AR that has had decades for refinements. A big obvious here. Quick change of calibers/barrels. I can only ask why. My thoughts without ever shooting or handling one is that it is a total piece of junk. The AR is waaaaaaaaay better. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:34:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Haven't seen it but have heard multiple stories of AR bolts breaking (non colt bolts- no don't want to start a manufacturer war but colt magnafluxes their bolts from what i've heard)... yes, reduces muzzle flip but at the same time what's the recoil for 5.56? next to nothing... if I can shoot an AK accurately then why not this? I don't think it's that bad of an idea- but at the same time........ not a new one either... Galil anyone? same thing (from what I can tell) -Roth |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:36:43 PM EDT
[#13]
I'll keep my AR.
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:39:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Then go buy a SAR-3 and put an Ultimak mount on it... But the concept in general is like putting a 1950's motor in a 2004 Corvette... You take an old, obselete design and put a fancy body around it... |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:41:21 PM EDT
[#15]
True, but I try not to look at it like that. If bushmaster built an upper with a rail built in, then they could probably do it for cheaper than 800+3-400 for a rail system, because that would just be a part of the manufacturing process. Mass produce something like that, and it certainly won't cost as much as adding seperate components. Either way, an 800 dollar AR+ a 250 dollar Larue 7.0, and you're still at 1050. Hell, for 1500, you can get a KAC SR15, and then you get ALL the goodstuff. So make the XCR around 950-1000, and it might have some appeal. They very well may end up doing that, but I just cannot see that company putting ANYTHING out at a reasonable price that isn't a VEPR. The M96 is a great rifle, until you look at the price tag. Simply put, you can get a much better rifle than the M96 for 1500 bucks. If Robinson plays it smart and makes its price near high-end AR pricing, they may have a winner. But if they pull the same shit that they did with the M96, its going to flop. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:42:18 PM EDT
[#16]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Thanks for the laugh. Shit, I am STILL laughing. I hope those were intended to be the jokes I took them as. S |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:42:47 PM EDT
[#17]
While I agree that it cuts down on recoil and a bit of accuracy, I still think a gas piston is a better choice. Yes, you will have to clean the gas system, but at least you won't have the danger of short stroking. The AR IS vulnerable to this. Additionally, you won't have to deal with external debris added to crud from the normal operation of the rifle. I will admit the advantages and disadvantages to the system. But look at the SIG550 - it has a gas piston operation, and is nearly as accurate as an AR. I personally think the secret is in the barrel ( just the quality of it ). Why not do the same thing, or just improve the ammunition? It is a simple fix for an AR. Yes, I admit that the AR can and will use up your ammunition supply. But what about if you don't get a chance to clean your rifle? Say you just ended a manjor firefight and are sent RIGHT on into a patrol from your base? Let's think worse case scenario here - if the rifle can handle the worst, then it can handle anything. We are dealing with accuracy in terms of MOA here. I'd gladly sacrifice 1/2"-1" of accuracy for the fact that I know my rifle will NOT fail, even if I am negligent and gunk builds up to an insane point. As for the 3 bolt lugs, this is something I've wanted for a long time. Yes, you do need to have a longer arc of rotation for it to unlock, but then you get stronger lugs and easier cleaning in return. The 8 lugged AR is very difficult to clean thuroughly. Put a piston in an AR and you will get the best weapon in the world, hands down ( and it is even without it, and I'll defend my statement to the death ). |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:44:42 PM EDT
[#18]
That damn stock is hideous.
Although Robinson is known for crappy stock designs. Just look at the VEPR. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:45:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Yes, they were jokes. I didn't post that, but its pretty obvious it was a joke. Very funny indeed.
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:46:33 PM EDT
[#20]
Man, If Bushmaster made a monolithic upper RIFLE.... and sold it at a reasonable (<1k) price.... I would run around the house, rubbing my nipples, screaming "I'm dead sexxah!" S |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:47:43 PM EDT
[#21]
1) Define 'accurately'. Acceptable accuracy to me means capable of putting a 10 shot group in 12" at 600yds, and 7" at 300yds, NO OPTICS.. The AR can (and has been known to manage even smaller than that). The AK can't, due to it's operating system. Even if you rechamber for a more accurate round like .223. AKs are fine for where they are used, but the AR is a 100% better weapon. Period. 2) If bolt breakage was a problem the Army would have had trouble with it, and the bolt would have been redone. After 40 years, they seem quite happy with the bolt design. 3) Any way you look at it, the piston op, PERTICULARLY the long-stroke AK design, is an obselete system. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:48:06 PM EDT
[#22]
Would be sweet...but I gotta admit, I love the peiced together look of a basic AR with a KAC, or a free floated RAS system. MRP's just look goofy to me on the AR15 system. Can't get used to them, and for my applications, won't have to. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:48:49 PM EDT
[#23]
NOT.
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:51:54 PM EDT
[#24]
YES!!! SOME ONE FINALLY UNDERSTANDS WHERE I AM COMING FROM Thank you Blackjack272. Stainless |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:54:13 PM EDT
[#25]
Put a piston in the AR and you have just another rifle. The fact is that the AR is reliable enough for military use. If you clean it once a day, it will work fine... And 'clean' means just the bolt carrier, bolt and upper reciever -> a 5 minute job. We are talking about a gun that gan go 4,000-5,000 rounds without cleaning at least. That qualifies as 'reliable enough to last 1 day of ops without cleaning'. The Army seems to have come to the same conclusion based on AARs from OIF -> the defining difference between folks who's rifles were reliable enough and folks who had problems was maintanance. The only 'advantage' of a piston op system is that it's easier to get the thing parade-ground clean. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 6:58:56 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:00:09 PM EDT
[#27]
[teh ass] WOW, the great lumpy has graced my pitiful thread with his presence, and seen fit to make a ONE word reply. One day, I hope, I shall be cool enough to receive... dare I say it? TWO words. [/ teh ass] HA HA HA have a good one. Stainless |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:01:36 PM EDT
[#28]
I know where you're coming from Stainless... The same 'back to the past' crowd that mourns the death of the M14 and 1911 as US service werapons... You take the Vietnam-era reliability 'urban legend', roll in some more 'legends' about the AK gas system, and get a gun that would have been great in 1954, but is totally outclassed today... |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:03:46 PM EDT
[#29]
"OK, buddy. Any more from you..... and you are gonna have to deal with fluffy." 
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:04:10 PM EDT
[#30]
Ive said it all before, but everyone around here keeps jizzing their jammies over piston driven uppers like they're 12 and just saw a Playboy mag for the 1st time. AND, knowing Robarms propensity for overpricing things, it'll retail for what a Bushmaster M4 with a rail system and an Aimpoint go for. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:04:18 PM EDT
[#31]
I also agree on that sand/A-stan/Iraq issue with ALL guns jamming up.
However, what if sheer idiocy, complaceny, etc. is the reason for not cleaning your weapon? That whole Jessica Lynch fiasco could have been solved if they had a weapon that didn't foul itself up ( however much I love the AR system, I will admit that it shits where it eats )? I recall that every gun they had jammed up because they didn't maintain the damn things. I'm not talking about the amount of time that goes by when rounds are being fired. I'm talking about the amount of time that it can sit there in a state of abuse and still work when needed. Look at the AK. I'm convined that one of the reasons it works all the time is because: a : Clearances. Sand can GO somewhere. b : Less carbon/gunk buildup overall. Guaranteed, or your money back. I mean come on. How many repeating firearms do you know of that will have a FTextract due to gunk on the extractor. It happened to that SIG P220 in some random 10,000 round torture test I read about, and it can certainly happen to an AR. I do agree that the M-16A2 is reliable enough for combat. But I still see no reason why we should NOT modify it a little bit. I don't hear about HALF as many problems with AKs, SIG550s, G36s, etc. They are all piston weapons, two of which were designed AFTER the M-16. Hell, one of Colt's first production variants of the M-16A1 was a piston driven rifle, and was one of the most reliable M-16s ever made. It wasn't produced because the military already had many impingement rifles, and they were cheaper. I really cannot see why not. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:06:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Its one of the few "new" AR competitors that dosen't look absolutely hideous, only the stock. Hopefully, it'll be lightweight and handy.
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:08:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Whewh.... I thought I was the only one.
Now... where did I put My eotech?
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:11:30 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:17:46 PM EDT
[#35]
Statements like this frustrate me. "If the military uses is, it MUST be right." Also known as, "If it is MILSPEC, it must be best." The military has MANY other criteria when picking a rifle, one of them is COST. A rifle that costs $10,000 per copy, and does EVERTHING perfectly... is NOT going to be selected. This is a GROSS exaggeration, I am aware, but the point is made. I would LOVE to see what the "gas-piston-sucks" crowd would say IF the next military weapon is gas piston. LOVE TO. S |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:27:33 PM EDT
[#36]
DAVE_A has convinced me that the M-16/M-4 is the pinnacle of firearms development. There is no need to research any further. Please do not waste your time exploring the XCR. The AR series is the best. Colt will surley release it's SCAR related technology to civilians, don't you worry. Please excuse me while I go clean my AR.
P.S.: Has anyone with all this "knowledge" even handled and XCR? |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:30:19 PM EDT
[#37]
Im sorry.
This thing is the greatest EVER. You should buy TWO. Everyone should. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:37:02 PM EDT
[#38]
If they only made a LARUE! mount for it, then it would be super cool. Until then it's crap as I have posted earlier. P.S.: I wonder if an ACOG or Aimpoint sits too high or too low for proper cheek weld. I'm sure someone "who has actually handled one" will come along shortly. Also, what about BUIS sytems, are they compatible? I still think this XCR is crap (EVEN THOUGH I'VE NEVER HANDLED ONE)! |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:53:22 PM EDT
[#39]
+1 I could do alot with the funds it would take outfit that thing. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 7:55:19 PM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 9/16/2004 8:16:47 PM EDT
[#41]
 
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Posted: 9/16/2004 8:21:03 PM EDT
[#42]
I like it.
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Posted: 9/16/2004 8:25:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Your wasting your keystrokes. The earth is flat, always has been, always will be, to some. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 8:52:48 PM EDT
[#44]
This is tantemount to the most ignorant thread I have ever read. An AK is innaccurate because of its piston?? Maybe its because they blast them together for $50 a copy using third word technology, steel, and manufacturing processes and have tolerences as loose as a slingshot. Last time I checked the AR was a 1950's design and the XM8/G36 which is a gas piston driven 2004 corvette that will be "Mil Spec" in the near future. Try shooting something other than an AR and you will realize there aint much "muzzle flip" with any 5.56 weapon. Dork. Go put daddy's AR back in the safe and finish your homework. I am also amused by the attitudes about ROBARM who is a tiny manufacturer who has made huge investments in bringing some new or something old to the American public. Do you have any incling of how much it costs for CAD programming, machining, engineering, proofing, patenting, die making, equiptment costs, insurance so he can defend himself when you shoot a hole in your foot all to sell a few guns to civvies? The price is reflected in the cost of thier products. I bet the profit margin aint any better than any other rifle. This is not colt who has spent 40 years suckling the Kennedy's and governments tit. Hell, Colts major shareholder is the state of Conneticuit . This guy is taking a huge gamble on everything he does, and everything I have seen thus far from them is very high quality. The VEPR stock may be FUGLY but it will break down a mahogany door and is very comfortable to shoot from. The FAL style stock is the most battle proven in the world. You could but stroke Ivan's teeth out with it and it remains rock solid yet cuts 1/4 of the rifles length off for paratroopers, riding in vehicles etc, which is what a folder is for. Try that with your 27 position $300 AR stock. I am sorry I feel so grumpy when I come here but this kind of BS is encountered no where else. I like my AR but some of you have major blinders on. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 8:57:10 PM EDT
[#45]
+1 |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 9:59:38 PM EDT
[#46]
++ I'll reserve judgement until had-it-in-their-hands-&-ran-it-for-themselves end-users provide feedback on its performance. If it's a dud, well then so be it. Then again, if it delivers... I've never understood the need to reflexively bash new firearms - more specifically, one's that don't use direct gas impingement - out of hand. It's a rather heaping pile of denial to argue that anything w/ a piston is incapable of delivering battle-worthy, even MOA, accuracy. BTW, I have it on good authority that some piston-driven SCAR candidates are delivering the goods in the reliability & accuracy departments. But, of course, it still doesn't mean anything, 'cause the AR is still better, no matter what. No matter what, that is. Lot of sour grapes getting thrown around lately. |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 10:08:59 PM EDT
[#47]
i'd buy one
if the price is around $900, max if not, i'll stick w/ another bushy |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 10:24:52 PM EDT
[#48]
We will be saying the same thing then... Just like the 'direct gas sucks' folks complain abou tthe current choice. The fact is that something as SERIOUS as bolt failure WOULD result in a revision. Just like concerns about slide separations with +P+ ammo in the Beretta resulted in the 92FS model being created. That was never meant to mean they'd do a new rifle, just that they'd redesign the bolt... |
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Posted: 9/16/2004 10:37:51 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 9/16/2004 10:37:57 PM EDT
[#50]
Ok... you all asked for it.
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