Keep in mind that even if you had a pre-ban and took the evil stuff off, it became a post ban. To keep my current post ban from being considered a post ban later, I plan on documenting the pre-ban condition on Sept 14.

What I'm gonna do is take a picture of the gun in post ban condition, on top of the local newspaper (with the date prominently displayed). I will also have the "pre-ban" upper and "pre-ban" collapsible stock in the picture. Then, I'm taking a second picture, with the same newspaper, but with the "pre-ban" stuff installed. These pictures will then make it to a notary. Once done, they're gonna get filed away as proof at a later time that my "post ban" gun was restored to "pre-ban" condidtion.

Don't want some weasel telling me if it was a "post-ban" gun under '94 AWB and you can't document that the stuff was on it before a new ban, it is still a post ban gun. Hell, the politicians are pretty weasely themselves. Wouldn't surprise me to see some of em cave under pressure and let the Kerry's of the congress ram another one down our throats any time in the near future (before or after the election). Only thing i've learned that you can trust about politicians is that you can't trust them.

I think you need to stop worrying to much

Quoted: members.cox.net/jason47/images/tinfoil2.jpg

shit I'm taking pics writing sn on them and having my friend whos a notary put a seal and date across it. I'm not taking any chances for an uncertain future. It only takes a few minuetes and can make a huge difference down the line. Call me paranoid but sometimes people really are following me

I understand your concern a little.  All my friends think I am crazy when I talk about buying mags, lowers, etc while the ban in off.  They think that the ban will not come back.  Fools!

lol, sorry couldn't resist,  I think we all understand you're parnoia, I'm sure i'll do something too, but it'll probably be making sure i have copies of the recipts from the parts, and etc

Quoted: shit I'm taking pics writing sn on them and having my friend whos a notary put a seal and date across it. I'm not taking any chances for an uncertain future. It only takes a few minuetes and can make a huge difference down the line. Call me paranoid but sometimes people really are following me

What difference will it make to a ban that doesn't exist.

And I won't even go into how little weight you notorized document will hold.

And yes, I am a notary.

Quoted: lol, sorry couldn't resist,  I think we all understand you're parnoia, I'm sure i'll do something too, but it'll probably be making sure i have copies of the recipts from the parts, and etc

Don't forget that a stripped lower has to be able to be proven it was built into a rifle under the current perameters of the ban no matter when it was purchased or dated on a receipt. I'm sure if a new one comes into law a similar section will apply.

Quoted: Quoted: lol, sorry couldn't resist,  I think we all understand you're parnoia, I'm sure i'll do something too, but it'll probably be making sure i have copies of the recipts from the parts, and etc Don't forget that a stripped lower has to be able to be proven it was built into a rifle under the current perameters of the ban no matter when it was purchased or dated on a receipt. I'm sure if a new one comes into law a similar section will apply.

true, but don't you think that it would be a resonable doubt with me having both the recipt for the lower and the recipt for the upper?  Innocent until proven guilty.

I think it is real unhealthy to worry about things that don't even exsist.  Lets get this ban dead and buried before we start worring about future bans.

Maybe you guys should consider putting the assembled rifle in sealed envelopes and placing them in time capsules. then, if anyone ever challenges whether or not they were made prior to what ever comes up, you can take them out of the capsule and prove it.


You would so show them!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: lol, sorry couldn't resist,  I think we all understand you're parnoia, I'm sure i'll do something too, but it'll probably be making sure i have copies of the recipts from the parts, and etc Don't forget that a stripped lower has to be able to be proven it was built into a rifle under the current perameters of the ban no matter when it was purchased or dated on a receipt. I'm sure if a new one comes into law a similar section will apply. true, but don't you think that it would be a resonable doubt with me having both the recipt for the lower and the recipt for the upper?  Innocent until proven guilty.

Not so. With the current law, mere possesion of an assault weapon is a crime. However, it is an affirmative defense that the rifle was legally grandfathered. The burden of proof is on you.

of course, if there was anew ban, it will probably change entirely.

Where is markm when we need him the most?  

Quoted: members.cox.net/jason47/images/tinfoil2.jpg

I'm on it !!

GOD DAMN!  There's some gutless, paranoid Cowards on this fucking site!

NOBODY GIVES A MOTHER FUCK ABOUT YOUR RIFLE'S CONFIGURATION!  They wanted the AR BANNED altogether.  The gunmakers loopholed the stupid law and rendered it useless.  Nobody is checking for FLASH HIDERS, NUMB NUTS!!

The "next ban" will be nothing like the previous.  So, IMHO, all efforts to make sure your rifles will be "preban" are wasted.  You're basing it on old criteria.  You don't know what is coming.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: lol, sorry couldn't resist,  I think we all understand you're parnoia, I'm sure i'll do something too, but it'll probably be making sure i have copies of the recipts from the parts, and etc Don't forget that a stripped lower has to be able to be proven it was built into a rifle under the current perameters of the ban no matter when it was purchased or dated on a receipt. I'm sure if a new one comes into law a similar section will apply. true, but don't you think that it would be a resonable doubt with me having both the recipt for the lower and the recipt for the upper?  Innocent until proven guilty. Not so. With the current law, mere possesion of an assault weapon is a crime. However, it is an affirmative defense that the rifle was legally grandfathered. The burden of proof is on you. of course, if there was anew ban, it will probably change entirely.

lol, well by the time that ever becomes an issue, i'll have the monetary means to take care of that problem should it arise, even though i never foresee it being a problem, and I'll use the motto of my generation, "you can kiss that fatest part of my ass" to any moron prosecutor that is too stupid to know what the words ex post facto mean, and you're right about current law, but they will legally have to grandfather in guns manufactured before the date of any new attempted AW ban,

Quoted: GOD DAMN!  There's some gutless, paranoid Cowards on this fucking site!

It's about fucking time mark! You should almost be banned for this irresponsibility.  

If ever questioned, I will say that the proof is engraved on the inside of my flash suppressor.  Here, take a look!

Quoted: Quoted: GOD DAMN!  There's some gutless, paranoid Cowards on this fucking site! It's about fucking time mark! You should almost be banned for this irresponsibility.

I know.  I took a few hours off, and the DUMB ASSES ran wild!

Instead of notarizing the pictures you could probably also mail the pictures to your self and never open the letter because it has the post mark. Dont know how well that would hold up in court though. And besides, the prosecution should have to prove you are guilty. The defendant shouldnt have to prove he is innocent.

Quoted: GOD DAMN!  There's some gutless, paranoid Cowards on this fucking site! NOBODY GIVES A MOTHER FUCK ABOUT YOUR RIFLE'S CONFIGURATION!  They wanted the AR BANNED altogether.  The gunmakers loopholed the stupid law and rendered it useless.  Nobody is checking for FLASH HIDERS, NUMB NUTS!!

Well no shit! I know no one cares, but I can't incriminate myself and all the law abiding folks on the site.  I know "no one" has illegally configured rifles in their house right now but it will be amazing how many pics show up instantly on the morning after the sunset. I know I have all my evil configured weapons built  ready to go into legal form. This thread is getting way to hostile for me. Remember guys, we're all friends here right??!!

Oh and FWIW, I was thinking of the documentation soley for future resale value should we fall into another bullshit piece of legislation. Not saying I collect for investment purposes but I'm sure many of us would have bought up every M16 we could if we could go back to pre 86.

Quoted: Instead of notarizing the pictures you could probably also mail the pictures to your self and never open the letter because it has the post mark. Dont know how well that would hold up in court though. And besides, the prosecution should have to prove you are guilty. The defendant shouldnt have to prove he is innocent.

Oh my god. Its like a Perry Masson epasode. Thats just crazy enough. It just might work.

Quoted: Instead of notarizing the pictures you could probably also mail the pictures to your self and never open the letter because it has the post mark. Dont know how well that would hold up in court though.

Your Honor..

I would now like to have my client, Mr. Numb Nuts, Open this letter!

OK, councel!  Jurors, please try to contain yourselves!  No outcries in the courtroom please, or I'm holding people in contempt!  

Quoted: Maybe you guys should consider putting the assembled rifle in sealed envelopes and placing them in time capsules. then, if anyone ever challenges whether or not they were made prior to what ever comes up, you can take them out of the capsule and prove it. You would so show them!

You Crazy !!

Quoted: Quoted: GOD DAMN!  There's some gutless, paranoid Cowards on this fucking site! It's about fucking time mark! You should almost be banned for this irresponsibility.

Both Should Be Banned

Quoted: Quoted: Instead of notarizing the pictures you could probably also mail the pictures to your self and never open the letter because it has the post mark. Dont know how well that would hold up in court though. Your Honor.. I would now like to have my client, Mr. Numb Nuts, Open this letter! OK, councel!  Jurors, please try to contain yourselves!  No outcries in the courtroom please, or I'm holding people in contempt!

Gotta Love It...

do you guys have number of cases in which someone was arrested for having preban features on post ban rifles, i think the number is so small it would probably be in th double digits nation wide, in ten years.  don't worry about other bans now, this one isn't even over yet.

also, if you want to be able to prove when rifle was built for resale purposes, thats different, thats a good idea.  you know the gunmakers keep sn# on file when the guns were manufactured and thats all you need, that would put the burden on the gov.

Quoted: also, if you want to be able to prove when rifle was built for resale purposes, thats different, thats a good idea.  you know the gunmakers keep sn# on file when the guns were manufactured and thats all you need, that would put the burden on the gov.

That would only prove you had a black receiver.  There would be no proof that it became an evil black SAW before the ban.

...well, FWIW, after 9/14 I'm taking a picture of my completed rifles on top of a New York Times with the date clearly showing and the serial numbers & key parts showing as well.  Will I ever "need" these pics???  ...Nah... (?) but since I am bound to take lots of pictures of my new Evil things anyway, I figure that I might as well incorporate some fluff & insurance.  

Ya thats it. I think Im going to keep a newspaper dated 09-14-04 in my safe. That way I can covert ban #2 weapons to no ban weapons.

I am a super mind hacko.gif

See the date on the news paper. IM INOCENT!!!!

Quoted: I think it is real unhealthy to worry about things that don't even exsist.  Lets get this ban dead and buried before we start worring about future bans.

DITTO!!!

Quoted: ...but they will legally have to grandfather in guns manufactured before the date of any new attempted AW ban,

"Legally" "they don't have to do any such thing.

Feinstein said it herself over ten years ago: "Turn 'em all in."

They can do anything they want if they get the votes.  So we have to make sure they don't get the votes, and that they don't put Kerry in the White House 'cause he'll be selecting at least 4 of the Supreme Court justices who will be hearing future gun control cases.

Quoted: shit I'm taking pics writing sn on them and having my friend whos a notary put a seal and date across it. I'm not taking any chances for an uncertain future. It only takes a few minuetes and can make a huge difference down the line. Call me paranoid but sometimes people really are following me

Minuets?? What, I gotta start writing music now? This preban crap is getting out of hand!

I don't see the problem in taking a little pre-caution. I guess I'm paranoid that way living in the PRK. INSURANCE NEVER HURTS.

I do believe that mailing yourself the photos with an official post date is a decent legal way to do it. You can do that for legal purpose  for copyright items (this I know for fact). At least you'll have something...and with that, it would then put the burden of proof on the AG to discredit your proof.

I am also going to mail a CC of all my dated photos to a few different friends of mine who are lawyers so they can keep it on file. I think the AG/DOJ would have a hard time trying to prove I manufactured all this proof "after" the fact if it ever came down to it...

It's a fucked up world we live in right now so it's better to CYFA then get a jail sentence for something  stupid...remember, the libs are all about making citizen gun owners into criminals. The Republicans aren't going to hold the POTUS/Congress/Supreme Court forever...

All it's going to take is another Columbine and the anti's/libs will have to 'save the children' once again...they WILL point the finger at the sunset of the AWB and they WILL blame the Republicans and all the media WILL be left-sided.

Arabs aren't the problem with this world, liberals are the problem....because w/o liberals getting in the way, we'd be able to take care of the 'real' problems...one carpet bombing session at a time.

What is it with people thinking that if they take a picture with a newspaper its should be ok.  I have a newspaper from 20 years ago, can I take a picture with it and my rifle becomes preban

Quoted: Ya thats it. I think Im going to keep a newspaper dated 09-14-04 in my safe. That way I can covert ban #2 weapons to no ban weapons. I am a super mind See the date on the news paper. IM INOCENT!!!!

and

Quoted: What is it with people thinking that if they take a picture with a newspaper its should be ok.  I have a newspaper from 20 years ago, can I take a picture with it and my rifle becomes preban

LOL...well I don't know why I didn't think of that!    That's what I get for posting at 1:00am.  Oh well, all my "no ban" guns will still look nice (even if that's all they do) superimposed on a paper dated 9/13/04.    

The purpose of the newspaper is simply to establish firmly that the rifle was put together after the ban ended, LEGALLY. That alone is worthless for any future configuration, cause you can take pictures of the paper 20 years from now (I have three special editions from 9/11 filed in a box  in the storage room). NOW, to prove that they weren't taken using that paper after a new ban goes in place, they're NOTARIZED, simply to establish the date the were taken by. Not rocket science.

Mailing pictures to myself or friends. How much of your mail has the postal service lost in the past? FedEx maybe, but they don't do that good a job either.

Grandfathered. Sure, all the stuff made before a new ban is created would be grandfathered, look at all the millions of guns still running around merry ol England or Australia. Course in that case, these photos won't make a damn. Just because they grandfathered last time doesn't mean they will next time.

As far as the proof goes, my concern is more to unloading the thing than worrying about court. Hell, if they get so far as to start siezing em or prosecuting, I figure well all have to become the little sheeple so frequently mentioned, or get in a shooting war.

The only remotely psoitive thing I can see coming out of a Kerry presidency is that he would be too ball-less to do anything about any states the decide they want to succeed. (Okay, that looks funny, I refer to the act of telling the country to go to hell, we're forming our own little country again.) Or, if he did actually have the gumption to do something about it, he wouldn't be able to make up his mind what to do?

markm - you raised some valid points, here are my thoughts to them
"GOD DAMN! There's some gutless, paranoid Cowards on this fucking site!" - No just cautious realists.
"NOBODY GIVES A MOTHER FUCK ABOUT YOUR RIFLE'S CONFIGURATION! They wanted the AR BANNED altogether." - precisely, see my comments about the shooting war.
"The gunmakers loopholed the stupid law and rendered it useless." - We'll hope they are successful next time, too.
"Nobody is checking for FLASH HIDERS, NUMB NUTS!!" - Not until you try to sell one. Look at all those questions for the last 10 years of "is my rigle a pre-ban". Kind of answers the question without a lot of research, just lookat the photos.

serial # is all you need for proof when U fill out the yellow Goverment form it has a date on it. Im not going to worry about having proof that it is a compleate gun there is so many lowers out there that were sold as just lowers in the past.

This is crazy talk.

Many of you worry way to much.

Just put the features you want on your gun and shoot it.

As long as you're not robbing banks I think you'll be fine.

Quoted: serial # is all you need for proof when U fill out the yellow Goverment form it has a date on it. Im not going to worry about having proof that it is a compleate gun there is so many lowers out there that were sold as just lowers in the past.

Isn't that why the only true "pre-ban" lowers that existed were the Colt's that were sold as "complete firearms" as-is?  As I understand it, if you bought a lower from someone who had a complete pre-ban Bushy rifle (for example), the lower no longer could be used to create a "pre=ban" config rifle.  Of course in a few short days, none of this wil matter.    

If you bought a lower before the 1994 ban (say in '92) and then you left it stripped until '95 and THEN decided to build it, yes, you broke the law....BUT if you bought the lower in '92 and built it up in '93, it is a LEGAL pre-ban gun BUT, the burden of proof will fall onto you to prove that you had it build before '94. The government only needs to prove your lower was a stripped (not a complete gun) lower before '94 (which is easy to do).

*** THIS IS WHY I am chosing to DOCUMENT my guns because if there is ever another ban (say something more like the CA 2000 ban that bans based on real features), my guns will be DOCUMENTED "pre-next-ban"...

Now if I lived in some remote part of Alaska or Montana, I probably wouldn't give a fuck but seeing how I live in a HUGE city (and a anti-gun one at that), it's VERY possible that the police might need to enter my house (for whatever reason...like a my neighbor's place catches on fire and the police just come in to check to make sure no one is in my place sleeping or something) and if I get lucky and get some anti-gun cop, the last thing I need is to go to jail for have a collapsable stock on my AR with undocumented pre-next-ban parts.

Like I said before, it's just INSURANCE. Negative thinking? Paranoia? Yes and yes, but I don't see the liberals going away any time soon and as long as there are liberals, the threat of another ban is still there.

I know a lot of people who "talked tough" about not registering their CA "assault weapons" during the 2000 ban saying it was bullshit and non-sense...blah, blah, blah...now these people have kids and homes....NOW they're all nervous about getting caught with an un-registered CA assault weapon...NOW they regret not just registering them...NOW they have to figure out how to move the guns out of the state (imagine getting pull over and searched just miles from the Nevada or Arizona border)....NOW they're the paranoid ones.

im currently charting the stars as we speak, and then ill get a judge a priest and a rabbi to sign it as witnesses. after that i will go and notorize a notorized document that says the date. ill mail all that stuff to myself, and bury it all in my yard with a time lock safe. That ought to do it LoL :)

Ok ok just goofing, but i do understand a little paranoia... though we dont need to go crazy. Im sure there MUST be a way to do this that is legally sound, and reasonable.  I just dont know what  hehe

anyway, i still havent got an AR yet, but i plan on quickly purchasing one so i can beat the next ban. We all know its coming. Ex post facto will stand since its such a principle part of our legal system. I cant imagine what would happen if they tried to change that aspect of law.

Here is some food for thought for fence sitters and outright "enemies of the Constitution":

Many Patriots have the attitude that they are going to abide by existing edicts, but draw the line on new edicts.  

Any additional anti-gun legislation will be viewed as totally illegitimate by many Americans since 1) it is blatantly unconstitutional, and 2) since the means of enacting it was not legitimate (i.e., illegal aliens electing Congressmen who then vote to ban the guns of citizens).

All of the gunowners that I talk to abide religiously by the 94 AWB, hence the excitement over the ban expiring in a few days.

That will not be the case with the next illegitimate gun ban.  

Quoted: Here is some food for thought for fence sitters and outright "enemies of the Constitution": Many Patriots have the attitude that they are going to abide by existing edicts, but draw the line on new edicts.   Any additional anti-gun legislation will be viewed as totally illegitimate by many Americans since 1) it is blatantly unconstitutional, and 2) since the means of enacting it was not legitimate (i.e., illegal aliens electing Congressmen who then vote to ban the guns of citizens). All of the gunowners that I talk to abide religiously by the 94 AWB, hence the excitement over the ban expiring in a few days. That will not be the case with the next illegitimate gun ban.

Yeah, I've heard that line before...


As far as having to prove that the rifle you build at the sunset, I wouldn't bother.  The next ban that is passed is likely to be more strict.  Most liekly, any ban that is brought to Congress will involve the registration of our guns.  It will probably be just like the /86 ban on MGs.  At the very least, it will require the postban receviers to be marked as such to make it easier to identify an illegally configured rifle.  More than likely, any new ban will be permanent.

It's nice to think that we will all stand up and fight for our rights.  However, it's just macho chest thumping.  Seeing how we all abided by the '86 ban, the '89 ban, and the '94 ban, everything points us toward the fact that we will follow any new bans that are enacted as well.  What really makes anyone think it would be different this time around?  Some John Wayne fantasy of standing up for your beliefs even against impossible odds?  Some dream of being some great rebel who sacrifices himself for what he believes is right?  A patriot who would be considered a criminal in his own time, but which the future will brand a hero?  

The fact is that we will not break the rules once they are law, no matter what our beliefs.  We are not crazy, we are not criminals, and 99.999999% of us will not stand up to the law when the time comes and the next ban is passed.  Our only hope is to fight any ban before it even gets near getting passed.  Our stand is to be made before it is law, as the truth is that we will not stand against it once it is law.  

I'm sorry to be so harsh, but talk is cheap and we all know what the rality of it is.  None of us stood up and laughed in the face of the ban on machine guns or the ban on semi-auto "assault wepaons".  If we were the stuff of our fantasies, we would have spent the last ten years with postban rifles with flsh suppressors and collapsible strocks mounted on them.  Instead, we impatiently wait for the sunset with our preban barrels and collpasible stocks carefully stored uninstalled from our receivers counting the moments until the moment we can safely make our rifles "whole" again.  If we were the rebellious patriots we envision in our minds, we would all be drilling our semi-auto receviers for that forbidden auto sear.  Instead we save our pennies for the registered and documented MGs our goverenment has so generoulsy allowed us to keep in our lowly civilian hands or merely dreaming of one day being able to own one of these precious rareties.  

The disheartening and sobering truth is that we are law abiding citizens.  No matter what that law is, we will follow it.  We won't stand against it.  We won't start a rebellion or a revolution.  We will obediently (albeit begrudgingly) follow any law that we are lax enough to allow to pass.  We are not criinals, otherwise we would all be in prison and we wouldn't own any guns at all.  So let's stay ever vigilant and keep any further bans from becoming law.  Otherwise, it will be too late.

"A truly paraniod man would tell you not to keep your reciepts. If they are dated before 9/13 because the govenment will use them against you and say you put it together before the ban sunset."


Now seriously, we don't know what the next ban will be like, but I really see no need to get crazy. In 1994, we had a warning, and we had a good idea of what the bill was gonna be. So just relax and enjoy it and fight the good fight when and if it comes.

Quoted: "A truly paraniod man would tell you not to keep your reciepts. If they are dated before 9/13 because the govenment will use them against you and say you put it together before the ban sunset." Now seriously, we don't know what the next ban will be like, but I really see no need to get crazy. In 1994, we had a warning, and we had a good idea of what the bill was gonna be. So just relax and enjoy it and fight the good fight when and if it comes.

I agree.  Anything that isn't grandfathered will be confiscated.