New to Long guns, sorry if stupid question.  I would like to buy an M4 and make external upgrades to it ie...sight, light, grip, stock etc, etc, etc.  Is Colt or Bushmaster M4 better to work with than the other.  
  Im also considering on getting an SR-15 but not sure if its worth the total cost.  I can get alot of things added to a standard M4 for the same price as an SR-15.

Thanks

Both Colt and Bushmaster are considered Top-Tier rifles, so either is an excellent choice.

Mike

Both are excellent rifles.  A nod to Bushmaster for price & support of the 2nd Admendment.

Nod to Colt for resale value and better quality control on parts & assembly.

You should read the post about Pat Rogers comments somewhere on this page - he makes some excellent observations.

[url]http://www.jobrelatedstuff.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=176742[/url]

First of all dont buy it.  Build it.  That eliminates all of Colts advantages for practical use of the rifle.  The Bushmaster allows the use of the KAC 2 stage trigger should you select it (the one in the military SPRs but semi auto).  You dont have that option with the Colt because of non spec pins.

The only thing you may want to consider is that the Bushmaster does not have the extended feed ramps.  However they are never lined up perfectly on Colts and if you have it done after on a Bushmaster it will be perfect (costs $30).

I put my Bushmaster upper together from parts and it is in no way inferior to any Colt I have ever seen or owned.

1/7 Twist 14.5" M4 barrel (you must call to get this as its special for govt production)
Flat top upper
M16 bolt/carrier

I can think of no reason to select a Colt over a Bushmaster unless you are FORCED to purchase rifles built by the manufacturer.

By building you dont waste money on things like stock triggers, handguards, stocks, carry handles, sling swivels and what ever else you may or may not want.  You will have exactly what you want for the least money and it will have the most critical individual assemling it...YOU.  Any monkey can assemble an AR from parts successfully if that concerns you.  It requires no more skill than hammering a nail or turning a wrench.

Hey DevL,  
  I am really new to AR's; I have never even fired one. I am mechically inclined and feel I could put anything together (within reason)....my problem is what parts to ask for? What build is suited for my needs?  Thats the reason I was going to buy one prebuilt and go from there.  I was going to try to do my own upgrades as the money comes along.  Is there a "Master List" of AR M4 parts that I can get and who makes em?

This can get long and complicated.

You have to decide certain things.  I will assume that you want a top tier build with the best possible parts.  

Do you want a free floated forearm?  If you have the money then the answer is yes.

You can select products from Knight's Armament, Daniel Defense, ARMS, PRI or Lewis Machine and Tool.

Each product has advantages and disadvantages.  What optic will you use?  An unmagnified dot sight or a low power scope?  How important is a solid cheek weld to you?  Do you want the ability to add an M203?  How important is weight?  Do you have the need to quickly change calibers?  These questions will decide which items you want to look at from those manufacturers.

Are you OK with the factory trigger?  If you want an after market trigger on a budget the Accuracy Speaks trigger is excellent.

Do you want a cheap light or the best quality?  How far do you need it to shine?  25m? 50m? 100m?  Do you want a tape switch or push button?

Do you want a seperate vertical grip or do you want it combined to the light?

There are dozens of questions like these you must ask.  I sugest a LOT of study before you purchase ANYTHING.

Check these products and decide what you need.

Free Float Rail Systems:

ARMS SIR military vs civilian / regular vs slim line / bilevel or not
Daniel Defense Rails systems 7.0, 9.0FSM etc
Knights FF RAS, RAS, RAS 2

Optics:

Trijicon TA31 TA11 and COmpact ACOG scopes (learn about what BAC is)
Aimponts
Eotechs

Lights:

Surefire M900
Surefire Millenium Universal lights both 6 and 9 Volt

Stocks:

ACE
VLTOR
Magpul
CavArms

The list goes on and on for mounts, grips, etc.

Essentially what you need to have a functioning rifle is

Barrel
Complete Upper
Bolt
Carrier
Charging Handle
Rail system (barrel nut may or may not be included)
Gas tube and gas tube pin
Back Up Iron Sight (ARMS 40 is hard to beat for any application)

That gives you a complete upper that has usable iron sights and you can add any optic you choose at a later date.

You will need a complete lower parts kit minus the hammer, trigger, and disconnector (if you use an aftermarket trigger)
Stock, buffer, buffer spring, reciever extension (if not provided with stock)

This will give you a completed lower.

By adding the other items like optics, light, tritium irons, tacical charging handles, and whatever else after, you get this initial build completed you can avoid a lot of expense and still have a quality functioning rifle.

Keep in mind if you go with a 14.5" barrel you need to select a rail system first and decide if you want a folding front sight because you will be forced to add a permanantly affixed muzzle devise to get the length to 16" and a post ban must have a permanatly affixed device to cover any threads.

I built mine this way and avoided the headache of wanting to add a rail system and front sight that would require removal of my permanantly affixed flash hider.  After assembly I had the flash hider permanantly affixed.

[img]http://www.btammolabs.com/images/m42.jpg[/img]

Some rail systems require their own special barrel nuts and others use the factory nut.  If you just build a rifle you can end up limited if you need to have the special nut or remove the sight base if your rifle is finished with a muzzle device.  Also the LMT unit requires proprietary barrels you must buy with the upper.  I doubt this is what you want however.

Just ask LOTS of questions and research all the rail systems I listed as well as the optics etc.  Get a good iron sighted rifle built and add the rest later.

If you have more specific questions just Email me.  This will get complicated.  I would in fact not even do a pure Bushamster gun If I were you.  Id use multiple manufacturers parts to build the thing up for the least money including Bushmaster, Colt and Rock River Arms.

Some [url=http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=66&t=163592]things[/url] never [url=http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000497.html]change[/url].

I don't think the issue of Colt vs. Bushmaster is quality of assembly.  It's an issue of consistency of parts.  Bushmaster builds a very good gun and provides quality parts, but consistency is where they are lacking.  They get their parts from alot of different sources and quite simply aren't as stringent as Colt with regards to QC.  Hence, the issues with soft hammers, poor carrier key staking, feed ramp burrs, etc.  I agree that building your own is the way to go.  If you are willing to spend the money, use Colt parts.  If you're willing to hand pick your parts, save some money and use Bushmaster.

Your opinion is the exact opposite of Mr. Rogers observations. Why did you not jump in on that thread? Buy a Bushmaster so, I can pay extra for M4 feedramps and "special order" a 14.5" 1/7 barrel? These parts/modifications come STOCK on a Colt. I consider the trigger pin to be a "non-issue", why does anybody need a match trigger on a M4? It seems like alot of trouble just to get a rifle that is no more reliable than a stock Colt. I realize that this makes perfect sense to a loyal Bushmaster fan. I just don't think they are logical for anybody else.  

Dinger, my thoughts exactly how much does a bushy cost after you spec them out like the colt since the price differance on an M4 is
less than a 100 bucks to start with? probably
more does not make much since to me after reading several posts that bushmaster can't
seem to get there front sight towers alighned
properly. And instuctors don't rate reliability
all to well.

What about a Knights SR-15?

I responded to Pat Rogers on tactical forums in the original thread on Colt vs everything else.  He has made some comments about how he cant believe certain people chime in when they only own a couple of each rifle and draw conclusions that they are the same when he sees many of them and baisically our opinions dont mean squat.  I assume thats directed to me and others who chime in they owned both Colt and Bushmaster milspec M4s and there was no difference in quality... only cost.

It saves litteraly HUNDREDS to build your own from quality parts instead of buying a Colt.  The Colt M4 barrel I bought was $400.  The Bushmaster M4 barrel I bough was $175.  You can get Colt bolts and carriers for $99 right now though so thats a no brainer.  A RRA upper is every bit the upper an M4 marked Colt is.  Its also only $99.  Parts are parts guys.  My milspec M4 shoots 100% and 1MOA or less.  I built it from parts.  Bushmaster parts at that.  Had I built a Colt it would simply be more expensive (and I DID build a Colt).  There is no questioning that.  Buy Colt if you want to say you have a Colt.  To me a rifle is a tool and parts are parts so long as they are quality.  I sold the Colt as it was wasted money.  The only thing good about a Colt was all the parts are marked so you can get more money for them when you sell them.

Why do I want a KAC 2 stage trigger in my M4?  Because I use the same lower to shoot long range with an SPR.  Its also the best trigger made.  I take it you have not tried one if you are asking why?

Also why all the focus on what Pat Rogers says about Colts?  Its only one man's opinion.  He also says you should run around with your flash light on 100% of the time and not use a tape switch type pad.  That flys in the face of what all other low light instructors teach.

The guys at MSTN run classes for the pros too.  They advocate "match" triggers.  They use parts that are not Colt. Etc.  

I have never heard of a 14.5" 1/7 twist Bushmaster barrel having the taper pins driven in off center.  Please educate me if you have a source.  While your at it find me an Accuracy Speaks trigger that has failed.  Id also like to see some Bushmaster bolts broken at the cam pin.  

Also I think KAC uses 4140 instead fo 4150 steel in their barrels.

You Colt nuts really get me sometimes... parts is parts. Buy for price and not for a stupid name brand.  This is a TOOL not an Armani shirt.  Buy the cheapest quality parts you can get your hands on.  This has now stepped into the realm of petty so I am goonna sign out on this thread.

I still find it odd that you choose to "Colt Bash" on this thread and not the "Excellent Pat Rogers post" thread. I would think someone who holds their own opinion in such high reguards would have jumped at the chance to debate with Pat and some of the other highly respected ar15.com members who agreed with his statements. Instead who avoided that thread and posted some where else. I wonder why?
I'm not even going to acknowledge your other remarks about Pat. His reputation and expierence speaks for itself. Are you actually implying to we should listen to you instead?

[b][/b]

You Bushmaster guys really get me. "Go Bushmaster", then go buy a "special order" barrel, Gunsmith installed feedramps, double heatshield handgaurds, side sling adapter, etc. All parts that come stock on a Colt M4. You go buy the cheapest, I'll go buy the most reliable.

Devl,

I too own a little bit of everything (RRA, Bushmaster, Eagle Arms, DPMS, Colt, etc) and I too love to build my AR’s.  I love hunting for the parts, collecting parts, scheming, dreaming, trading, etc.  To me it’s all part of the fun.  However, I’m not sure where you are saving hundreds of dollars because I’m not!  I’m currently building a new 100% Bushmaster (hopefully with the special run 16”, 1:7 barrel) and I figure I’ll have around a $1000 in it when it’s finished and that doesn’t include an aftermarket hand guard or an optic!  That isn’t saving me anything and in fact is costing me more than buying a complete, off-the-shelf Bushmaster (or RRA, or Colt).  It will be very similar to the Colt 6400c that I own but it will end up costing more money.  Also, it will also be more expensive than my other post-ban Bushmaster and only around $250 cheaper than my pre-ban Bushmaster!  How is that saving me hundreds of dollars and will it be any better than the Colt when it’s finished?   Of course it will be exactly as I want it the first but I fail to see how building our own is saving us hundreds of dollars.

I guess if I bought the cheapest parts I could find or bought used parts off the EE (which I do from time to time) I could save a little but I don’t feel like buying the “cheapest” parts available…instead I look for the best parts at the best prices.  If they happen to be Colt parts then fine, if they happen to be Bushmaster parts then fine, if they happen to be RRA parts then fine.  To me building my own isn’t about saving money it’s just fun to do.  If I save some in the process then great but so far I haven’t saved very much if any.

Just because someone comes on the boards and says that they feel the Colt 6400c is a better dollar-for-dollar value than an off-the-shelf Bushmaster M4 doesn’t make them a “Colt nut”.  I only own one complete Colt and one Colt barrel.  On the flip side I own 2 complete Bushmasters, another Bushmaster lower, I have Bushmaster lower parts kits in two more lowers, and a couple Bushmaster bolt carrier groups, carry handles, collapsible stocks, etc so what does that make me, a Bushmaster nut?  How about an AR-15 nut?

Merry Christmas [<|:d>]

Edited to add: Why isn't my Santa face coming up?

Here's a couple of very minor examples of some of the other brand's specs...

1. RRA lower - the little arch between the pistol grip and buttstock isn't flush with the buttstock.
2. RRA upper - rail out of spec.
3. Bushmaster upper - when ARMS #40 is installed it won't sit flush with the back of the receiver.

These may appear insignificant and to some it may seem like nit-picking, but if the manufacturers can't hold these tolerances to spec, what makes you think they're holding the critical ones to spec?

The Tactical Forums thread is not one man's opinion.  It's the voice of experience from some very knowledgeable people.  It's not a matter of Colt being a better gun.  It's a matter of Colt being a [b]consistently[/b] better gun.

 

Devl:

I won't advocate one brand over the other since, before I started building my own, I owned some of each that were great, and some that shouldn't have gotten off the assembly line.

I will take your statememt "parts are parts" a little further, though. Every part is definitely not as good as every other part. There are quality parts and there are parts that are little above the junk class. I will agree that you can buy first quality parts from different sources, and I assume that is what you meant to say.

Let me clear things up.

I guess noone heard me say that Tactical Forums post was the second of its kind.  I already chimed in on the first one with Pat.  Go do a search.  Pat also said that there were no 1/7 Bushmasters, Bushmaster does not MP inspect parts, etc, etc.  I chined in they do have 1/7 barrels and they head gunsmith and QC managers at Bushmaster say they DO MP inspect parts.  Ans no I am not saying listen to me over Pat Rogers.  I am saying go do research for yourself and make your own decision.  Please keep everythig in context.

I assume since you wont respond to my discussion of Pat's opinion on light use you run around with your weapon mounted light 100% of the time and dont use intermittent light.  Rock River Arms corrected the out of spec uppers like what?  2 years ago?  They even use the same subcontractors who produce the SAME upper COMPLETE WITH ALL FINISH as Bushmaster on the SAME production line.  RRA upper = Bushmaster at times. But not always.  Its still just as good of a part.

I think you guys are hearing me though.  Buy ONLY quality parts.  When you have two equal parts, buy for price not name brand.  I thought I could sign off here but I guess I needed to say the same thing in a different way to be clear.  As for all the crap on the 6400 colt... why would I use front sight sling swivel when I run a FF rail system?  I would have to be an idiot.  Why would I own a set of M4 handguards if I want a FF rail system?  All that stuff on the 6400 is great if you want to mount slings to your barrel and not have a FF rail system.  For those who dont its money down the toilet.

Save hundreds?  The barrel is over $200 savings alone.  If you get the complete 6400 the side sling, carry handle, and M4 hand guards will get tossed.  Large savings there.

How many of you Colt enthusiasts have multiple manufacturers of ARs?  Most say I ONLY own Colt becasue Colt is best.  I used to think that too and I think thats half the problem.  I also used to only own Bushmaster for a while.  Someone please show me a NIB Colt M4 complete upper for under $450 out the door, including the bolt and carrier.

I sold my side sling adapter - $20
I sold my carry handle - $100
I sold my double heat shield hand guards - $35

$967 - $155 = $812

Not bad huh?



See my last post...I only own 1 Colt and the rest are Bushmasters, RRA, Eagle Arms & DPMS builds.  I never said Colt was the best I said that it's my opinion that between the 6400c and the off-the=shelf Bushmaster the Colt is the better value.

Please tell me where I can get a NIB Bushmaster M4 upper, included bolt and carrier for under $450.  I want one but I've never seen them that cheap.

There is no free lunch.  You're not going to get Colt quality spending less money.  Period.  Bushmaster "says" they MP, but do they do each bolt and barrel or just samples from each lot.  You'll never know because they don't keep records like Colt does.  Somebody out there thought they were buying quality parts until they discovered their Bushmaster hammer was too soft.  Somebody out there thought they were buying quality parts until they discovered their RRA upper rail was out of spec.  Somebody out there thought they were buying quality parts until they discovered their DPMS bolt cracked at the cam pin hole.  Whether anyone cares to admit it or not Colt is not experiencing failures in the real world on the scale that the other brands are.  The other brands cut corners here and there because the average shooter will never know.  Colt can't cut corners because they are a gov't contractor.  The civvy parts are made on the same machines as the military parts so you, as a consumer, reap the benefit of having access to the best parts.  Just for the record, I used to be a diehard Bushy fan and have owned RRA as well.  The three out of spec issues in my above post were all seen on my personal weapons.  I've also had a feed ramp burr on a Bushy barrel that caused feed issues and an out of spec magwell on an RRA.  I have two shooting buddies that have had the carrier keys on their Bushy's come loose rendering their guns inoperable.  The list goes on and on.  Once again I'll say that it's not an issue of quality.  It's an issue of consistency and Colt rules the roost as far as consistency.  

Devl, this could go on forever, and has been done sooooo many times in the past that its not worth the effort. They are absolutely pointless. I've seen your opinion many times in the past "Go Bushmaster". I will also not get into a debate  over something Pat might have said about CQB light tactics. How many SOCOM detachmants consult you about tactics/firearm issues? If you think you know more, good for you. But, the safe money bet is on Pat.

Bushmaster barrel from $175-195 Gunsmoke/Bushmaster direct
RRA Upper Complete in the EE from a reputable vendor $89
Colt Bolt and Carrier from CDNN $99
RRA charging handle $15
Gas tube and pin - dirt cheap anywhere

There is your complete under $450 upper.  If you did it right you could squeeze in under $400.

$100 for the carry handle is a great sale.  In the EE they go for $65-85.

Sidesling mount goes for about $20

Handguards about $20-30

Your price on the 6400c is alos one of the best I have seen.  Where did you get it?

Lets keep in mind RRA beat Colt for the lions share of the ATF M4 contract.  The DoD and DOE buy Bushmaster M4s too.  I never advocated an off the shelf Bushmaster was a better value than an off the shelf Colt.  I advocated buying parts and self assembly from RRA, Colt and Bushmaster.  The sources I listed are compabies and not bargain basement EE deals either.  The part has an issue, you swap it for a better part.

RRA complete lower with stock is $225.  My hodge podge upper is about $400

$812-625= $188 savings.  If they cant get the full $100 on the EE for the carry handle you just saved hundreds by building your own.  I have not even gonn into the try to sell a stock trigger vs only buy a Accuracy Speaks, the difficulty in selling a factory fixed M4 stock vs buying what you want for a stock right off the bat.  Buying the grip you want vs selling the factory grip on a Colt, etc.  Yes you can indeed save hundreds building your own with Bushmaster, RRA and Colt parts!  It will function equal to any Colt.

I'd love to read up on this.  Sources please?

Why is this about MY opinions on flashlight use?  I have NO opinion.  I train NOONE.  I simply stated others have different opinions whos ideas are held highly in that one aspect.  I have always said go make an educated decision and listen to no ONE man.  Pat is so dead on about so many things its truely amazing.  Flash light use and parts selection is just the two I disagree on.  Also I believe Pat was discussing FACTORY rifles.  I was not.  I think Bushmaster is a better value than Colt when they are equal in function.  I think building your own is better than Bushmaster when they are equal in function.  Do you disagree with that thinking?

Pardon me it was DEA not ATF.  Dunno what I was thinking.

The real world is showing us that Bushmaster isn't equal to Colt in function.  I think building is a much better idea, but how do you know the quality of the parts you are getting?

Very nice, that is some great hunting!



Colt stuff does command a higher price, no doubt about it.



ArmyInf.  He's a great guy and a valuable member here on the boards.



I agree completely...sounds like you (much like myself) love gathering and acquiring the parts as much as anything else [;)]



You may have a leg up on me because I've never assembled an upper so I always have to pay to ship it off and have someone like Kurt or ADCO assemble it for me.  I don't mind paying extra to have a professional do it.  I'll build my own lowers but I've never assembled the top end...yet.

Here's my last build:
Del-Ton upper = $88
Colt 1:7 20" barrel = $180
RRA B/BC/CH = $125
Eagle Arms lower = $95
Cav Arm C1 buttstock = $75
Bushmaster carry handle = $80
LPK = Free (I had one left over from something)
Cav Comp = $28
Delta ring kit = $10
Gas tube = $8
[red]KAC M5 RAS = $275[/red]

Total = [b]$964[/b]*

*Total does not include shipping

Now, Steve did charge me like $40 for assembling my barrel/upper and such but I built exactly what I wanted for about $1000 minus optics.  No savings over buying a complete factory built rifle but like I said, it's exactly what I want the first time around.

I have to say that building my own is fun but as you can see I still haven't saved any money. [:(]

Edited to add: if I subtract the RAS I actually did pretty darn good, didn't I? [:D]

DevL is right, RRA did win a big DEA contract.  I'm glad, they produce some very, very nice stuff.  One day, as soon as C4iGrant gets his FFL I'm going to build a complete RRA (hint, hint).

"Lion's share"?

$113,639,340 for Colt, and $85,923,935 for RRA. What is that, about a 32% change? Must be a dyslexic lion.

[url]http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2003/07-July/04-Jul-2003/10-awd.htm[/url]

You talking about [url=http://e-center.doe.gov/iips/busopor.nsf/0/79395c973da1095485256d6d005e60f6?OpenDocument]these[/url] "Bushmasters" that DOE bought?

It's interesting to note that the DOE is not buying lowers or bolts and carriers.

Ok, enough, LMT and Diemaco both beat Colt and BM.  Now if only LMT would start civilian production in earnest, and Diemaco would start exporting to the US, we wouldn't have to have these silly threads.

I have to stick with DevL on this one, you can get burned just as easily on Colt as BM, well as least in my experience.  That was a different thread though and I won't go into it here since it's pointless.

If you factor is price, then BM or RRA is generally the way to go.  Sure if you can get a bolt/carrier from Colt or BM for the same price, you go Colt.  If the Colt cost $10 more, well you think about it a bit more and then go with Colt on reservation.  If the difference is $20 well now it's a crap shoot, and if it is $30, well hell, BM all the way.  Cost/benefit ratios, it's what it's all about.  I think that was the point DevL was trying to make.  Brand loyalty is pointless, buy what works for you and allows you to sleep at night.

Not in that contract anyway. Looks like they're retro'ing existing rifles into carbine config. I notice they didn't buy handguards tho. Maybe they already had carbines and wanted to "upgrade" them. Maybe the handguards came through other sources, maybe the parts are simply that.

Did you know that LMT and Diemaco supply Colt with parts?  You don't think Colt makes their parts in house do you?  They get them from LMT and Diemaco and probably other sources too.

If you want to buy LMT contact Wes @ [url=www.mstn.biz]MSTN[/url] he has 14.5" uppers in stock now!

Thanks for all your help this is what I got

[img]http://www.bragados.com/pics/ColtM4.JPG[/img]

Colt M4

I'll build the next one...

Nice rig now if your like me you get to spend a small fortune on sights and extra mags. Happy
new year of shooting.

Very nice, I don't think you can go wrong the Colt 6400c.

Excellent!  Congratulations!!  Now, start thinking about your next AR [;)]

MAN LIFE IS CHEAP-ESPECIALY WHEN ITS "OUR" MONEY!  REGARDS.........

Ahhh [:)]

Another Colt fan is born...

...It warms my heart. I just passed the 3000 round mark with my own 6400C and so far I haven't had a single malfunction. By the time my old Bushy hit 3000 rounds it had already been back for warranty repair once and I was preparing to send it back a second time (and eventually a third time) [:(]

Have you started purchasing ammo in quantity yet? You'd better start buying it by the case [:D]

There is one added expense to the newbie AR builder that so far hasn't been mentioned (unless I missed it), and that is the tools they'll need to assemble the rifle.

If they are simply going to assemble the lower and bolt on a complete upper half then they can do it on the cheap. However, if they are going to barrel their own upper at the very least they are going to need:

-Bench vise
-Action block
-Breaker bar
-Multi Wrench
-Headspace gauge(s)
-Various punches
-Etc etc etc

Recently I purchased four RRA stripped lowers and lower parts kits and I'm slowly putting them together in my spare time. I'm probably not going to barrel them until I know what's going to happen next September. I've been gathering the tools necessary to do the job correctly.

Granted, I could have saved a lot of money on my tools but since I don't like to buy things twice I bought a SnapOn torque wrench, a set of Starrett punches, Mitutoyo digimatic caliper etc.

You certainly don't have to spend a fortune on tools to build an AR, but tools are an expense that [b]has[/b] to be considered when a first time AR owner is thinking about building their own versus buying a ready made rig.