I found this over on Tactical forums. Very good reading.


Originally quoted from a Pat Rogers post on Tactical forums:


I'll add my 2 cents and from my observations as a shooter, not an armorer. So far this year I have taught several mixed civilian classes, w/ some military guys and cops mixed in. As well as some purely military classes and police classes. The number of malfunctions from the civilian side of the house was staggering - and something that I see regularly. The military guys generally have zero carbine issues, though they did have pistol problems (as one PJ said "Beretta means malfunction in English”). Many of the problems were the result of tinkering, adding, and otherwise obfuscating the basic guns. In many cases, poor quality items made it bad. One shooter had a red dot that didn't survive the first string. He bought an Aimpoint and did real well. Other shooters chose to tough it out with bad sight and suffered the consequences. Like SWATBWANA, I believe that the Aimpoint is head and shoulders above any and all others out there. Some incorrectly assembled their rifles after cleaning (when they did clean and lube). Colt continues to be the most efficient of the AR's. Of the remainder, Bushmaster may be a distant second. When you get one that works, it runs great, but many don't. DPMS is very spotty, and we see things like bolts fracturing at the cam pinhole. Of the others, a good one may squeak through, but I’d be hard pressed to see a pattern.
223 chambers - tight, match type - coupled with non-chromed barrels are a major problem. Why DPMS has "match" chambers in an M4 profile always confused me.
Aftermarket triggers are next, and I fail to to understand why anyone would want/need that in a 200m gun, but many show up - and poop the rack. Couple this with crappy sights - iron and optical, poor rings/ mounts, inefficient slings and add poor magazines (why spend all that money to go to a sleep away school and bring Orlite or USA magazines?) and cheap ammunition, and you can ensure a poor learning environment.
Last week I had two police teams - one from the SW and one from the SE. I've had these guys before, and they are very good. All have been in multiple gunfights, and they take the training very seriously. Of the 16, 14 had Colt M4's and 2 SiG 552's. 14 had 1911 types, GSP's, one Les Baer TR, and several department built rail guns on Caspian Frames/ slides. Two had Glocks. There were no malfunctions (not related to frangible ammunition). Not one, zero, Nada.
Now, all of these guys are enthusiasts - just like the average Joe coming to class. They just have a better understanding(Aimpoints,no "match" triggers and no unnecessary crap hung in or on them) of what is and what isn't needed. I too like the AR platform. It works very well indeed, and is extremely user friendly.
We just need to get smart.
------------------
S/F
Pat Sends

Pat's got some good points.

civiies don't normally shoot several hundred rounds a day for several days so they don't maintain their weapons like they should.  they just don't know how.  
 
Mil guy's shoot carbines with several thousand rounds thru them so the parts tend to be proven.  civies shoot newer guns that are prone to break because of unproven parts.

how the heck do you incorrectly assembled an AR15?  i think it only goes together one way (that works).  

good note on the 223 chamber.  frangable ammo doesn't like tight chambers.  and nothing works when they get hot.  

single stage triggers?  well.  each his own.

good sights.  that's a must!  some like co-witness.  others like to set the iron in the bottom third of the optics tube.  again each his own.  


hit us with a link to the thread.

That whole thread is a great read. There's a lot to be learned is the wisdom of Rogers and the crew over there.

BTW, I checked and the post I was talking about earlier (RE: RECCE Rifle) no longer exists. I had the URL saved in my favorites, and it no longer works. Sorry about that, I should have checked to make sure it was still there before posting about it.

-Cap'n

Just another "Colt" and "iron sights" rant from someone who hasn't caught up from the '70's. [rolleyes]

Pat is one of the biggest advocates of getting AWAY from iron sights...

I won't bother to comment on the rest of your statement.

yea, i think you got Pat Rogers and Clint Smith confused.  pat is big into optics almost at the exclusion of irons.  

YEAH, Pat Rogers doesn't know what he's talking about.  Listen to notack, he's got more experience, trains more and is considered one of the top tactical experts in the country.

The standard AR15 trigger is a single stage trigger.  Some aftermarket "match" triggers are single stage, and some are double stage.

The biggest problem with triggers is cheap cast parts from some manufacturers, and improperly installed or adjusted aftermarket "match" triggers.

Notack- I'm a little curious as to where you have managed to come up with the information that clouds your picture of me??

Contrary to your suppositions, i am a major advocate of optical sights, and have been for a lot of years.
My reasoning is based on my experience- i have actually been in this business for more then one day.
Sigh....

The key of course is using the correct sight for the mission.

I'll also base my preference for Colt carbines on that same experience.
I have seen some bad Colts, but very few. I have seen a number of very good guns from all of the other makers.
However, i don't make comments re equipment lightly, but rather after seeing a great number of different makers guns over a long period of time.
I have seen some RRA and Wilsons, but not enough to make a valid decision on how they perform.

As to others. I never understood why anyone would have a 223 "match" chamber in a 14.5/16" carbine, but it is the cause of a lot of problems. Likewise, a chrome bbl/ chamber seems to make life a lot easier for all concerned.
I have seen enough disasters with dpms parts (two in two days, cracked bolts, as well as others) to make me shy away from their stuff.
Gunsite, under the second owner, for a short time had a relationship with that company. And while one instructor uses a DPMS gun in competition, a Gunsite marked carbine owned by another never worked right, despite repeated contacts with the makers, advice on how to make it better etc.

Round count alone is not the issue.
Take your gun to a sleep away school. It is amazing how many people will tell me that their gun has "never malfunctioned" before they got to Gunsite; their sights were "dead on at 600 yds yesterday" but won't track today; their "magazines always worked before";or "I've been using this ammunition for years- it has always performed flawlessly".

I guess that there must be a Vortex cruising on down from Sedona that manifests itself near Paulden, and causes all of these problems.
Except that i have heard/ seen the same thing at a number of other locations.

Or, shooters may be as adept at stretching the truth as fishermen.

It is round count, under supervision, while engaged in formal instruction that will wring your gear out properly.
During the second owners administration, the gunsmith sold carbine packages- his version of what a carbine should be (it is interesting to note that not one instructor ever used this carbine- not one). Included was a "match trigger".
I can't recall having one finish a class without a problem. The 'smith claimed that all of the students wanted them. The truth is that he pushed the trigger for profit. The instructors told the students not to get it- when they came back from the shop they were poorer in cash, and bound to have problems.
This manifested itself when the present owner had one put in his carbine, and loaned it out to a student. It lasted until Tuesday morning.
While i see absolutely no use for a "match trigger" on a working gun, i am convinced that it is a matter of fitting more then anything else.
I am also convinved that a match trigger has a more finite life then a service trigger.
I will take reliability everytime over any perceived "accuracy" advantage that the "match trigger" may have.

But i'm still waiting to hear about where i don't like optical sights.....

What Pat is saying is you get what ya pay for.
I can't find fault with anything he says here, since I have had simular expariences, and observations.
Jack

Why thank you Sir!

Experiences develop into facts. Some just take longer to be recognised.
Good shootin, Jack

The ammunition in the first two incidents was PMC Ball- ammunition not known for being hot.
Unknown what type of ammunition was used in the third incident.
A fourth incident, of the same type, occured in a Bushmaster carbine. Unknown what brand of ammunition was used in that.

I am not an armorer, 'smith, parts changer, or plumber.
However those i trust, and whose opinions i trust, believed that it was a material issue.

FWIW, i supervise a lot of M855 ball going downrange in M4A1 carbines. While we see bolt locking lugs crack when the guns get worn (no gun books are kept, but a SWAG would be 14-20k), i have never seen a Colt bolt crack at the cam pin hole.
That doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It just means that i have never seen it.

A great slice of reality from Pat Rogers.  His comments help validate observations I've made at organized shoots as well.

So far in the great Aimpoint/EOTech debate I've sided with Aimpoint due in part to the comments of MSTN Wes and Pat Rogers.  And the fact that they just plain work.  An EOTech [b]will[/b] appear on one of my rifles some day, however!  [;)]

Pat may be sold on Colts but Bushmaster and RRA have been fantastic for me.  The bad taste of Colt's funny pins and sear blocks has just been too sour to swallow, I guess.  Still an SP1 would be cool!

Match triggers are a toughy for me.  The only lower I have that doesn't have one is my preban Bushmaster.  That sucker has the best factory trigger I have every pulled.  I wouldn't trust the JP or Jewell to combat conditions and I hear the RRA match trigger has problems at times, too.  A KAC 2-stage trigger is nigh unbeatable in my book!

The secret to success seems to be, as usual, moderation.  Your rifle is a tool, treat it as one you treasure and optimize it with rock solid additions that enhance it, not just make it look cool.

I too have seen a DPMS bolt crack at the same location in under 1000 rounds.

Thank God it wasnt my gun.

Pat,

Do you believe the M4 feedramps are a contributing factor for the increased reliability concerning Colts?

Thanks

[b]I in no way suggested, or implied, that I had any more knowledge or experience (or any at all) than Mr. Rogers.[/b] Those would be the inferences of [:K]'s.

However, I have no alterations to my original post.

The first two happened a day apart, to a husband and wife team circa May01. However, the guns were about a year apart in age. One was a tricked out something that the male saw in a magazine and purchased two. His ran well (until the bolt cracked) but hers never did. She completed the first class with my carbine, sent hers back, was not satisfied, and got an M4 profiled bbl type gun.
She finished the second class with my carbine- again.
The first gun had a gold colored coating on the bolt- sorry, but the name escapes me.
The third belonged to a Gunsite Instructor who had the gun for several years (unknown exactly when purchased). It was very problamatic and never did work right.
He had it take a big dump during a 556 class and finally bought a Colt- which is working fine.
The Bushmaster was a relatively low round count gun, owned by a Lady who runs a thriving gun store. This last incident happened in Sept 03.

I've heard rumors etc, but have no confirmation relative to cause.

Hope this helps...

Note that i am not saying that all (pick your favorite maker here) are bad. I am saying that, based on my experience (which is probably different then most) that Colt runs better.
The statistical average here is many guns, not one or ten.
As Gile Stock, a very proficient instructor and a voice in the wilderness in the early 80's about the benefits of a 5.56mm carbine often says "All of my carbines say "Colt" on the side.

Guns are just like autos. Some Yugos run great, and some MB's don't.
If yours works, go for it. If it doesn't, consider why, and purchase accordingly.

In other words, don't let facts interfere with your assumptions??

Here's the original thread...

[url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum56/HTML/000497.html[/url]

Pat do you think the malfunctions in the civilians weapons were due to poor parts or poor maintenence?Do you think they lacked skills on keeping the weapon clean in the demanding atmosphere of 700 rounds a day?I my self have gone through 1500 rounds of wolf in one sitting with my Bushmaster M4 type but then again I didnt build it from scratch,I had a qualified armorer do the barrel I changed out the stock and do my own fire control parts but I also have more than 15000 rounds on the rifle 6000 of those on the carbine barrel because it was a fullsize at one time.I recently changed the fire control group only because I thought it was about time. and I must admit shooting higher volumes of ammunition require more maintenence than just a casual day at the range when you shoot just a few hundred rounds.What kind of tinkering should not be done with an AR?and the gold colored parts you described I think are titanium wich I dont use,I only use parts from Bushmaster or RRA.My rifle is very basic with just an aimpoint other wise I use my iron sites.It has M4 handguards and a heavy buffer,I like them simple.What were the problems encountered in the bushmaster rifles? and do you attribute it to a manufacturing or end user problem?

Wow, Jack!

Your opinion of Pat seems to have changed since yesterday's thread.  My, my, my...
Guess you figured he wouldn't be chiming in here, huh??

Pat, good to hear from you Boss!!!  Merry Christmas.

Not to speak for Mr. Pat Rogers, as I am sure he has his own viewpoint, but I am lucky enough to see a large number of new and used rifles go through their paces each year.
I totally agree with him on the AR pecking order. The problem I see with Bushmasters is more often than not, caused by improper assembly. Not the materials, nor feedramp cut outs....
Some other lesser makes have been seen to have structural failures and quality issues. I can honestly state that the chamber in 5.56 also makes a noticable difference under heavy use.

As to "Iron Sight" Rogers.....well...Mr. Rogers is very much a proponent of optical sights and someone whose experience should be regarded quite highly. Any insinuation otherwise is simply wrong.

I never said anything against PAT at all, just re read what I said. He didn't have the all the info of what finley happened, and he wasn't there to see the final results nor could he report same!
Jack

It's humbling to thrust myself into the same discussion that many experts are having, but here goes anyway [:)]

I sold my DPMS after my second chrome bolt in three months cracked at the cam pin hole. I was shooting Federal 223 FMJBT (which isn't an especially hot round). I switched to Fed 223 after having extraction issues with milsurp 5.56.

Are the chrome parts DPMS or another company?I use les baer chromed extractors and ejectors on my bolt ever sice I went to a carbine.I figured these were the most likely parts to gum up under fouling build up and the chrome would help,not that I allow build up.No problems in 6000 rounds and no extractor wear and I shoot alot of wolf,one of the main reasons I went to a chrome extractor..But like I was told at les baer chrome can be applied wrong and make parts brittle and fragile.

To Pat Rogers,

i personally feel when you give advise it should be meant to help not hurt.  i have to disagree total alliance on battery optics is "stupid" and can get you killed especially if you have no back up rear sights.  well coming from a man with such experience i would think you see the value of mastering your iron sights first.  i understand that optics are useful in many situation "but" battery fails as your opinion does hear.  also your sound advise that optics are better than iron sights you know that "Murphy Laws" states that when you need something the most it won't be there.  so this is my advise to you learn to use your iron sights first if you can't i will teach you. PUN OUT HAVE A NICE DAY. BUSHMASTER WILL BEAT A COLT ANY DAY OF THE WEEK

Are you a complete moron? You are speaking to one of the most respected Tactical+firearm experts in the world. You need to learn some respect and some manners. I have no idea were you even dreamed up the statements you credit to Pat. My advise to you is close your trap and try and learn something! We need members like Pat posting their years of real world knowledge. Moronic statements like yours are why many of them avoid open forums.

My opinion weather any of us think a reply is in good taste or bad taste every one is entitled to an opinion in a free society.I see plenty of people disagreeing with others here as I have and as others have had with me,that has to be accepted when posting in an open forum and free society,I will not engage in name calling or judge any one all I can say is Pat is a big boy and certainly dosent need any of us to defend him..if he wants to respond I am sure he will..are we men here or a bunch of cry babies...Let pat speak for himself..Im sure he gets just as upset when people kiss his ass because as the saying goes how can you respect someone who kisses your ass..you cant.So although you consider his opinion in bad taste and disrespectful he is entitled to it and it could be said that you are also being "disrespectful" and "moronic" by starting a childish name calling game.

Mr. Rogers: in the origional post you talk about "adding and obfuscating" mods to the AR...what additions do you consider appropriate, and which useless?

i.e., forward grips, tac ligths, RAS or free-float handguards, etc...?

well last time i check this is AMERICA i can say what i want.  also VA_DINGER if you don't like want i am saying don't read it, i shut my mouth for no one.  if he is giving advise on something expect postive or negative replies.  i don't know about you my statement is true and right just because someone has so many years of experience doesn't mean he is right. you act like his word is the name of GOD what he says goes give me a break.  first of i have 10 ten years of experience with the m-16 rifles and m-4 you are calling me a "moron".  i learn when i pick up this rifle for the first time master your iron sights when all else fails these won't.  if you don't like what i say get over it this is a open site i voiced my thoughts and didn't revert to anyone in name calling like yourself.

Out of curiosity, how old are you? You seem to have the style and reasoning skills of a very young person-either chronologically or emotionally.

If you had taken the time to learn a little about Mr Rogers before you started shredding him you may have learned that he has spoken extensively on various backup irons for the AR.

I can see why some people wouldn't post here very often. It seems that it has become nearly impossible for someone to make a point without some backwoods zipperhead taking them to task over something that they extrapolated out of thin air. Because Mr Rogers did not preface his remarks with a 5000 word dissertation on the virtues of backup irons you have concluded that he is completely reliant on electronic sights-not to mention borderline negligent.

Do yourself and the rest of us a favor. Call your local community college and sign up for an intro to critical thinking class. It will do you a world of good.

On a related topic, is there an "ignore" feature here with a paid membership? Rather than sifting through the detritus in these threads it would be much easier to simply block the cognitive decay out entirely.

I've always thought that one of the tactical type classes would be fun but I'm just a plinker, hunter, gun nut. perhaps i have the wrong impression of this type of thing but i have very little interest in it. my bottom line is to have a good time shooting.
 having said that, i think this Mr. rogers observations are valuable. i wish i could have the comparative sample size that training exposure brings. its easy to say that my bushy out ran my friends colt one day, but it does not mean anything at all. the observation has no value and can not be use as a guide to base a critical decision on, such as what firearm to rely on, because the sample size is too small to make the blanket statement with any form of integrity that all bushmasters are better than all colts.
Mr. rogers has simply stated what has shown itself to be consistently strong and weak links during his exposure to a broad cross section of different AR15 configurations. it's hardly debatable, as it is simply what he has seen. the details surrounding specific failures is where the real gold is. was it ammo, mag, user, etc. etc.?  that is where there is something to be gained, so i can attempt to take measures to prevent that same problem from happening to me.
even if all I'm doing is making a coffee can dance across a field, its still a better day if i don't have to deal with a failure.

it's good information.

Unfortunately not CJan_NH, unfortunately not.

Pat is a grown up, as such I'm sure he feels no need to prove himself to our usual crowd of adolescents.

I'll throw in my "me too" to Pat's comments. Colt is top of the pack, BFI is a distant second, for now.

Bolts are incredibly complex parts, the metallurgy alone would tax most cloners.

Oh well, thanks for the info Tweak. It was worth a shot [:)]

This thread (like many before and many to come) is why I don't throw my opinion around with any authority.

There are things I know from my personal experience that are 100% absolutes, but to assert them is just asking for a chorus of naysayers to tell me why I'm full of it.

I learn, I pay attention, and one of the most important things I've learned is everyone's wrong, eventually.

Pun,

Personally, I value Pat's input here, and that he takes the time to share his insights with us considering how busy his schedule is.

You, I haven't seen contribute too much to the discussion around here, so just keep trolling away for as long as you can pal.

Don't let that factor stop you from joining tho. [;)]

FWIW, I've learned a lot because of the untutored masses here. Those with no knowledge often ask the most interesting questions.

[bored kode]

Dude, your 10 years of experience pals in comparision to Pat Rogers.  Please do your homework and find out who the subject is before you chime in and make yourself look like a fool.

Well Mcgrubs, did you go back and read what I actually said? Not purposely the false interpretation by someone else with an ulterior motive of BS! The silence is deffening!
Jack

One thing is for sure:  He hasn't mastered proper grammar, as well as basic reading skills.  Nor does he know much of anything about who he speaks!!

Well, I for one, appreciate Pat's experience being shared on this forum...


  - georgestrings

Hey listen Jack.  Don't try to twist everything around now to suit your needs.  I am sure that somewhere on the board, someone needs to know something about ARMS.  You should go find them, and "help" them out.  Why waste your time with little old me??

You're right, you were to much of a puss to name Pat in your two posts.  You just reffered to a certain "gunwriter", who was just looking to sell magazines.  Real frickin' mature Jack...  How the hell can you even comment on Pat Rogers, or his knowledge of any subject???  Have you ever even met the man???

BTW, the silence can be deafening when people are asleep, dipshit.  I don't troll this board 24/7.  You are the loser that everyone says you are, typical....

MAN,
it's sad when good posts go bad.

thanks Pat,
the vast majority of us appreciate you taking the time to stop by and lend your expertise.

Optics have there place...So do irons.
Learn to use bolth.
You'll be glad you did.

[b]Pat_Rogers & MSTN:[/b]

I'd be very interested to hear your comments regarding the Aimpoint vs. the Trijicon ACOG TA31, as I will be purchasing one or the other within the next several months.

Feedingcannibal

.