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Posted: 12/21/2003 7:46:47 PM EDT
[#1]
I predict there will be Bushmaster snobs one day just like the Colt snobs. [:)] They will buy Bushmaster just for the name.
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Posted: 12/21/2003 8:07:23 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: I predict there will be Bushmaster snobs one day just like the Colt snobs. [:)] They will buy Bushmaster just for the name. I hope not, but I could see it happening too. |
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Posted: 12/21/2003 8:19:51 PM EDT
[#3]
You'd be suprised how few companies there are out there that actually MAKE their AR or 1911 parts. Most of it is remarked for them by the few companies that actually make the stuff.
It pays to research and shop around. |
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Posted: 12/21/2003 9:08:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Yep Lumpy, just look at all of the "Bushmaster" stuff this company is making...
[url=https://secure.valinet.com/~yankeeh/cgi-bin/web_store/web_store.cgi?page=products.html&&cart_id=213162_5144]Damn Yankees[/url] |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 4:21:54 AM EDT
[#5]
I agree with all said.To DEVL its true I used to be a "Bushmaster snob"until I decided to do a build and started looking at the multitude of offerings beyond the bushmaster catalog and realized other companies are doing just as good quality at a cheaper price..I have seen the light..or maybe its just muzzle flash.I got my RRA lower for half of what the Bushmaster is and its damn good quality..actually finished a little nicer compared to my preban that has a straight line machining mark on the right side of my magwell and Im a hopeless neurotic so its been agrivating me the last 11 years.
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Posted: 12/22/2003 4:39:15 AM EDT
[#6]
I will still buy their barrels though for the most part. They are the only ones besides Colt currently making 4150 chrome lined barrels. A comparable Colt barrel will cost you two or three times more than a Bushy. Now that's price gouging. Until I see the new offerings from Knight's and Daniel Defense, I will stick to Bushmaster for my barrels. Everything else, I'll get elsewhere.
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Posted: 12/22/2003 4:43:17 AM EDT
[#7]
I agree Knightone I got barrel from them for my build because they are real good and closest to the spec without having to pay colt prices but every thing else is RRA.
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Posted: 12/22/2003 4:54:30 AM EDT
[#8]
I like the quality of RRA lowers and would match them to BM any day for fit and finish. This is one quality item that they make themselves. But then they bought this tooling from PWA so it was hard to go wrong there.
As for parts, well I suspect they buy much of it at the same place BM does. However, some of the other things they make themselves are not quite up to spec. flattop uppers for one. I have come across two that would not line up propperly w/Mil Spec CH and the knobs that are used to tighten down the detachable ch are not the same. No biggie but like the guys matching color and wanting EVERYTHING Mil Spec, this should be pointed out. PLUS their lower parts group, while quality stuff is NOT MIL SPEC. But then things like their tactical detachable CH are quality pieces that shows their strive to make new (different)quality parts at fair prices. They are definetly the best New Kid on the Block IMO. But I would most likely be considered a BM snob by looking at what I buy most! |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 5:26:48 AM EDT
[#9]
Maybe this is off topic - but why in the world would you buy two single heat shielded handguard sets in order to make one double heat-shielded set that you could have bought for $40 in the first place? So you ended up paying at least $70 (doens't include any shipping on RRA handguard). Also - assuming your AR came with the standard CAR handguards, why not just take the heat-shields out of those to make your double heat-shields? Am I missing something?
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Posted: 12/22/2003 5:43:40 AM EDT
[#10]
Doorkicker,
Did you mean not mil-spec as in no 3-shot burst? Or are they manufactured from a different steel? looser tolerances? I'm mostly just curious. Sorry for the minor hijack. |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 8:45:07 AM EDT
[#11]
Double heatshields are just hype, and something else Colt could patent. The thermoset molding process they use may also require the double heatshields to get the same level of performance as handguards made using injection molding with heat stabilized materials.
Double heatshields hinder barrel cooling, by holding the heat in, rather than letting it vent propperly. I've have heard of some in the military taking out the second heatshield in their M4 handguards for this reason. I think you'll find that most of the AR manufacturers are now using injection molded handguards made from a heat stabilized nylone with single heatshields [;)] |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 10:08:22 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: I think you'll find that most of the AR manufacturers are now using injection molded handguards made from a heat stabilized nylone with single heatshields [;)] Contracted from who?? [;)] |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 11:13:20 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: However, some of the other things they make themselves are not quite up to spec. flattop uppers for one. I have come across two that would not line up propperly w/Mil Spec CH and the knobs that are used to tighten down the detachable ch are not the same. No biggie but like the guys matching color and wanting EVERYTHING Mil Spec, this should be pointed out. PLUS their lower parts group, while quality stuff is NOT MIL SPEC. Yes, RRA DID (past tense) have a problem with their rails, but this problem has been corrected. Nobody makes true mil spec quality for the civy market, so that is a silly point to make. I like my RRA, just as well as my BM, if not better (because of cost). |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 11:22:20 AM EDT
[#14]
Now, don't get me wrong. I am not a Colt snob at all.
But I have to say out of all the M4 HG's I like Colts the best. I like how the barrel is visible from the top holes and bottom. With the Bushy M4 HG's I had the heat had to travel through a vent in straight of right out of the holes. Just my 2¢ |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 4:36:21 PM EDT
[#15]
To jimmy T the car handguard heat shields are different and I had an extra set of M4 to play with the other set is for my new build. so I decided to double them up.I get my stuff from pete in new hampshire cause I live close so shipping charges are not a factor plus he sells sets for $20 black or green.I have also never seen double heatshield guards for less than $60 and colt uses an inferior polymer.I just wanted to have an example of the same type.To door kicker the lower receiver parts group I have are standard parts small pin the only difference between them and bushmaster being the notch in the hammer is not machined as deep as bushmaster.So what exactly do you mean by mil-spec because no semi auto only parts are made to the exact spec except pin size.I will say though you are right on the detach carrying handle the knobs wind right off.
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Posted: 12/22/2003 4:53:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Sinistral is right! The oversize hand guards are one of the dumbest things to come along in years. They not only keep the weapon from cooling they contribute to it over heating and causing cook offs,(documented), but don't blame Colt, military idea. The other thing is that they should have used the rear section dimentions of the A2 hand guards so as not to be slightly and stupidly higher than the flat top receiver.
Put anything on the receiver and too often ya run into a very poorly designed hard to hold extra hot hand guard. What I get a kick out of is the copy cats making their stuff as bad, no thought of engineering or real weapons knowledge involved at all, just copy like chineese:) Then the copy cats have the same problems of over heating. Briliant!:( Jack |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 5:23:59 PM EDT
[#17]
But also military carbines are select fire with lighter barrels wich I think contributes more to over heating than handguards do.I have an HBAR and have never experienced a cook off or heat related failure and I go through 2 to 3000 rounds a month.Unless you dump one mag after another I dont think you can get the heat that high in a semi-auto and I have large hands the fatter handguards are more comfortable and dont get hot as fast.Also a lot of heat related failures on the M4A1 were on rifles with a RAS system when it was first being used in afghanistan over a year ago if you have a link to these documented failures due to the regular M4 handguards I would love to check it out.If you could post a link that would be great and thanks..927
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Posted: 12/22/2003 6:05:49 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Sinistral is right! The oversize hand guards are one of the dumbest things to come along in years. They not only keep the weapon from cooling they contribute to it over heating and causing cook offs,(documented), but don't blame Colt, military idea. The other thing is that they should have used the rear section dimentions of the A2 hand guards so as not to be slightly and stupidly higher than the flat top receiver. Put anything on the receiver and too often ya run into a very poorly designed hard to hold extra hot hand guard. What I get a kick out of is the copy cats making their stuff as bad, no thought of engineering or real weapons knowledge involved at all, just copy like chineese:) Then the copy cats have the same problems of over heating. Briliant!:( Jack I don't think the shape of the handguards is as much of an issue as the number of heatshields, thickness of the heatshields and location of the cooling vents. I personally like the fatter handguards for ergnomics and aesthetics. We shoot our shop guns full auto a lot, sometimes without heatshields at all, and never have any problems with barrels over heating or handguards melting. The one "problem" we've had is a gas tube melted after thousands of rounds of full auto use, then several beta mags in quick succession (I wouldn't consider that normal use). The gun wasn't too hot to hold, and the handguards only melted where the deformed gas tube contacted them. Whether skinny or fat handgaurds are better, we make them both in all 3 standard lengths, (Carbine, Mid-length, Rifle) so the consumer can decide which they like best. We do sell twice as many of the "fat" handguards as we do the skinny/tapered kind though... |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 6:30:29 PM EDT
[#19]
I think that if some company like Sinistrals made a plastic hand guard the same thickness as the A2 at it's rear dim, put in a single heat shield only on the bottom with added vents on top, they would corner the market in that field. Colt missed the boat! Just takes will and some money to get it done.
Good shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 7:07:19 PM EDT
[#20]
To 3rdtk thats kind of like a RAS aluminum heat shield on the bottom..sounds good..if its ever made Ill take a set ..but please not at bushmaster prices.
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Posted: 12/22/2003 7:15:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: To 3rdtk thats kind of like a RAS aluminum heat shield on the bottom..sounds good..if its ever made Ill take a set ..but please not at bushmaster prices. Yes, but most people rip out the heat shield in the RAS anyway. The flow of air through the unit is better without the heat shield. |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 7:23:53 PM EDT
[#22]
soldiers were doing that in afghanistan I forget what problem it caused by doing that,I think it was too hot to hold without a grip especialy where those guys M4s are select fire.
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Posted: 12/22/2003 7:42:07 PM EDT
[#23]
Well they rip them out as there is already a lot of alum rails absorbing heat that is then retarding the heat from realy cooling by the covers traping it, (insulating the hands from being burned) untill the direct heat to panel makes the panels to hot to hold.
A plastic hand guard with a shield that is raised away from the plastic will run a lot cooler than direct heat to a panel over it and no air circulation. Jack |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 7:47:49 PM EDT
[#24]
There is another thread about bushmaster handguards that now the heat shields are secured by plastic pegs mounted away from the handguard walls..maybe they are on to something.
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Posted: 12/22/2003 7:55:40 PM EDT
[#25]
I have to say the Cavalry Arms guys are doing something right with their "injection molding with heat stabilized materials".
Before I picked up a pair of their C4 handguards I had just a set of normal carbine ones with one heatshield and you couldn't hold it by the handguard after a few mags. Now after I installed the C4s there is barely any change in temperature after 2-3 mag dumps. Great product guys. |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 8:19:40 PM EDT
[#26]
ALL the heat shields stand off from the plastic. The double heat shields also do the same, but the double realy block the airflow from out or in, a real heat trap. Smaller vent holes on the bottom and larger ones on the top will allow heat that wants to rise, do it quicker. Then the weapon will run cooler and thus less heat to where the hand goes, on the bottom hand guard.
Jack |
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Posted: 12/22/2003 8:38:20 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: ALL the heat shields stand off from the plastic. The double heat shields also do the same, but the double realy block the airflow from out or in, a real heat trap. Smaller vent holes on the bottom and larger ones on the top will allow heat that wants to rise, do it quicker. Then the weapon will run cooler and thus less heat to where the hand goes, on the bottom hand guard. Jack Funny, I thought the reason they went to the round handguards was to prevent the problem of having to stock two different halves! Hell, tak it a step further. Have a lower handguard made of nylon 6 (or whatever cavarms uses) with a single or double heatshield, and heave the upper one mostly perforated like on the M1912 trench shotgun, except made of plastic. Basically the only point of the upper handguard is to prevent you from smashing the gas tube or making contact with the hot barrel (plus stability of bracing the lower handguard) Of course if the military stocked these, some poor fella would end up with an upper handguard in the lower position and burn his hand every time he fired a mag or two... |
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Posted: 12/23/2003 10:25:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: ...The other thing is that they should have used the rear section dimentions of the A2 hand guards so as not to be slightly and stupidly higher than the flat top receiver... ...I think that if some company like Sinistrals made a plastic hand guard the same thickness as the A2 at it's rear dim, put in a single heat shield only on the bottom with added vents on top, they would corner the market in that field. Colt missed the boat! Just takes will and some money to get it done. Good shootin, Jack... Jack not trying to be difficult here, but I just did a side my side comparison of our fat handguards vs a set of military issue A2s. Here's a pic of them on a surface table: [img]http://www.sinistralrifleman.com/HC-1.jpg[/img] I also took a caliper reading from the flat on the inside of the handguard halve to top ridges A2 = 1.225" C4/C5 = 1.329" is 0.104" that much of a difference for a plastic handguard? |
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Posted: 12/23/2003 11:54:16 AM EDT
[#29]
Thats one of the problems, both hand guards the same way, neither one doing a good job for the weapon or shooter, but does save money on the manufacturing end.
Jack |
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Posted: 12/23/2003 12:12:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Sinstral, No difficulty, I enjoy discussing something worth while that maybe you guys can pos. wish to fix. I'm pointing out that if Colt and Picatinny had thought about making shure the new M4 hand guards didn't interfere with items extended rails being put on an forward of the then new flat top receiver, that the intended purpose of the flat top of being able to extend it easily, would not be impeaded by the oversize hand guards. On top of that, they make the things so that there is hardly any air circulation to allow cooling, which in no time in firering defeats the intended purpose of a cooler hand guard.
There could be same size hand guards that could be placed in the upper or lower position in a pinch, but at least have an upper and lower that will contribute to keeping the weapon cool, and issued that way. Over heated weapons deteriate a lot faster than those that don't get so hot. That would more than off set the cost of repacing the barrel, etc. and more importantly a more trouble free weapon out in the hands of our troops. Someone like Calvery arms could do a good job from what I see, as the bigger companies don't pay as much to detail as they do to the bottom line. Good shootin, Jack |
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Posted: 12/23/2003 4:45:41 PM EDT
[#31]
My new build is going to be a flat top so Ill have to rethink my handguard choice.My other 3 are 2 A2 and A1 fixed handles.Is there an extended rail that can be mounted to a flat top and still clear the handguards?
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Posted: 12/23/2003 7:08:59 PM EDT
[#32]
I have seen others and I have used the oversize hand guard on the bottom and used a standard smaller size on top. That gives a better grip along each side since you get a bonus if an aprox. 1/16" comfortable ridge each side. Then anything can slide over and out there.
Good shootin, Jack |
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